Game 32: Devils at Flyers; 3/23/21 @ 7, NBCSP

[FD19372]

3 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Ok so Pouliot is a perfect partner for Gus, maybe they can beat Sanheim and Meyers -5 in one game.  I’m surprised you thought Morin was slow, they always said he was a very good skater for a big guy. 

I get the feeling that they know Pouliot isn't good enough, or he'd be up here. I don't know...is he injured?

[RonJeremy]

10 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I get the feeling that they know Pouliot isn't good enough, or he'd be up here. I don't know...is he injured?

I just figured that as bad as the defense is, they probably feel that Morin needs another 10 games at least before a call up, since he hasn’t played in 2 years. So since Pouliot has more NHL experience, I thought they may try him for a game or two. I don’t think he is hurt, last I checked his stats he was a -1 for the season, which has to be better than Gus.

Edited March 24, 2021 by RonJeremy

[CoachX]

37 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Copied from Broadstreethockey.

This article sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

First things first, would you say Alain Vigneault is a good coach?

This is a loaded question. I don't think Vigneault is a good coach. I think there is a ton of evidence that Vigneault is, in fact, a horrible coach, who was carried by two elite goaltenders (Roberto Luongo and Henrik Lundqvist) in their primes. Vigneault is a man who only knows how to build one machine. If the Flyers happen to have the parts needed to make the machine work, you will love Vigneault as a coach ... until the machine needs new parts. The man, I am convinced, has never looked in a mirror once. He never questioned himself or his decisions, even when they failed (I have more on that here). He needs a room with a lot of veterans because he keeps his hands off the room and lets the players run the show. Kids need to earn ice time and respect and find themselves put in the press box when they make mistakes. This is especially true of kids who bring more offense and make mistakes trying to do it. Once he's cemented a "favorite", that player gets held above any other accountability he would give to any veteran — a move which created animosity in the room with the kids and the vets. Pavel Buchnevich admitted after Vigneault was fired that when he was benched, all Vigneault would tell him was "fight for the puck" and never went into more detail. What's worse, he will make the Philadelphia media fall in love with them, something he did in New York, and it kept the media from going after him at all — which helped him not need to question himself. The things he did in New York that got him fired are the same things he did in Vancouver that got him fired. And at the end of it all, on the final game of the season two years ago, he gave an unprompted speech about how the "coaching staff was the best thing for the team." He has no love for advanced statistics and uses his own "sophisticated stats package" that no one is allowed to know or see. Seriously. I also think it's very telling that once AV was fired, no one, not a single player, came to his defense. And when given the opportunity, EVERY SINGLE former player bashed him after he was fired.

What are his coaching philosophies?

Vigneault preaches a speed game, but his systems often boiled down to a counterattacking team. Set plays were worked to get guys running through the neutral zone with speed and scoring off fast breaks. The problem is Vigneault's system requires defenseman to be able to get the puck in their own zone and start the breakouts, and he did this by making Dan Girardi a top-pair defenseman for four years. When the system failed he ... never adjusted it. At all. Vigneault teams typically get shelled in possession, and find themselves on their heels a lot when the offensive breaks don't go their way. Which comes back to needing elite goaltending to bail him out — which Lundqvist did.

Is he a coach who makes adjustments or does he stick by his gameplan regardless of the outcome?

Vigneault doesn't really adjust, he tweaks. Generally tweaks turn back to the tired and true ideologies (even if they're not working) as soon as something doesn't go the way he wanted it to. He "won't change the lineups" after a win, unless a kid did well and he needed to get one of his guys in. He's sat guys like Kevin Hayes and Buchnevich for Tanner Glass in the playoffs ... multiple times. Wins are wins regardless of how they come. Vigneault took wins as gospel, regardless of how they came. The Rangers won games on Hank's shoulders alone, got crushed in possession, saw players drown in their roles and Vigneault always said "never question a win" and left things as they were.

Ok. You posted someone else's opinion. Do you have any of your own?

 

My question directly to you, not someone else,  is how you define a player as a veteran? Your statement was AV is only capable of successfully coaching veterans.  I think the majority of this team fits that definition 

 

BTW, i did not bother to read what you pasted. Im discussing with you, which interests me. Whoever wrote that article does not

[ruxpin]

56 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Is he a coach who makes adjustments or does he stick by his gameplan regardless of the outcome?

 

I only scanned this article, but I'm not impressed overall with the author.

The above quote-grab caught my eye because it was bolded to begin what he thinks is some in-depth analysis of something that is largely a fan-fantasy of how things work at the pro level.   This is a league with systems, etc.   You don't "game plan" the first three possessions from scrimmage in hockey.   For the most part, you have a trap team or you don't.  You have a team that employs left-wing lock on a regular basis, or you don't.  You have a team that can complete two damn passes in a row, or you're the Flyers.  

 

Sure, there are some minor adjustments between periods, but it's not earth-shattering stuff like "we're going to run more off-tackle" or something.  A team tends to play differently with a lead than if losing, but most of that is human nature more than some call from a higher power to be careful not to pass the damn puck up the center of the ice in the defensive zone..repeatedly.   Or to stand in the defensive corner and dump it blindly in whatever direction your blade happens to be facing.  That's not system.  That's sheer laziness with a heaping dose of stupidity.

 

He does change lines throughout the game.   He does change lineups.   I haven't seen him sit Giroux or Voracek, but you're simply not going to.   You can get away with benching your high press-clipping guy in Columbus because who cares.   Even there it makes headlines.   Here?  It's a good way to end up elsewhere when the lunatics run the asylum and have repeatedly proven the doctor will be chased if the lunatics don't get every bit of pudding they demand.

 

If you read an article where they start talking about "making adjustments vs. sticking to game plan," move on quickly.  There's absolutely nothing to gain there other than potentially the feeling of having one's own irrelevant thoughts validated.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ruxpin

[Fizz]

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Ok. You posted someone else's opinion. Do you have any of your own?

 

My question directly to you, not someone else,  is how you define a player as a veteran? Your statement was AV is only capable of successfully coaching veterans.  I think the majority of this team fits that definition 

 

BTW, i did not bother to read what you pasted. Im discussing with you, which interests me. Whoever wrote that article does not

Dude that is my exact opinion.

I think he is a terrible coach. You obviously love him. We disagree no big deal. Yes we have under acheaving players, I agree on that point. But I also think a lot of the reason for the poor play is the system AV is asking them to play.

Look how often the forwards are fast breaking out of their own zone before the d has control of the puck. The d turns it over and there is no forward support, bang its in our net. He refuses to change, now other coaches have figured this out and we are getting our asses handed to us.

[ruxpin]

Just now, Fizz said:

t I also think a lot of the reason for the poor play is the system AV is asking them to play.

 

Please, I'm genuinely interested.  You have my curiosity peaked.

Please in your own words describe AVs system and in what way you would suggest doing it differently.

Also, what is your lace count?

[CoachX]

2 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Dude that is my exact opinion.

I think he is a terrible coach. You obviously love him. We disagree no big deal. Yes we have under acheaving players, I agree on that point. But I also think a lot of the reason for the poor play is the system AV is asking them to play.

Look how often the forwards are fast breaking out of their own zone before the d has control of the puck. The d turns it over and there is no forward support, bang its in our net. He refuses to change, now other coaches have figured this out and we are getting our asses handed to us.

So your opinion is someone else's? Ok, thats up to you. I already told you i am neutral on the guy. You arent. Thats fine

 

You are still dodging a simple question that opposes your POV. Thats odd. I choose to defend my statements. I guess it is hard to do when you cut and paste someone else. But when you do, it really questions the legitimacy of a POV

 

Since we changed the topic from vet players to poor break outs, I see your point. I just think its way down in the list of big issues. In order for the defense to pass the puck when they have control of it, requires that they do. The majority of the time they dont. They stand and watch, panic with the puck, and pass it blindly when in trouble

[Fizz]

8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Please, I'm genuinely interested.  You have my curiosity peaked.

Please in your own words describe AVs system and in what way you would suggest doing it differently.

Also, what is your lace count?

Well first thing I would do is focus more on defence. You have a young goalie who will be a star in this league but isn't there yet. You have defense men that are not playing well. Focus on your own end more before the fast break. Focus on the PP, it looks horrible. Try firing up the team not being so passive.

Giroux is not a leader.

I have no idea what a lace count is.

I will always maintain AV is not a good coach once you start playing the same team's over and over.

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So your opinion is someone else's? Ok, thats up to you. I already told you i am neutral on the guy. You arent. Thats fine

 

Sorry my dumb dumb meter is going off...

 

 

...I think what he is saying is the article aligns with his opinion.

 

Nothing wrong with that saves him or her not sure, a lot of typing to repeat it.

 

I do it quite frequently.

 

Now that I think of it I might be setting off the dumb dumb meter.

 

Carry on.

[Fizz]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sorry my dumb dumb meter is going off...

 

 

...I think what he is saying is the article aligns with his opinion.

 

Nothing wrong with that saves him or her not sure, a lot of typing to repeat it.

 

I do it quite frequently.

 

Now that I think of it I might be setting off the dumb meter.

 

Carry on.

The article does align with my opinion of AV, and yes it saved me a lot of typing. 

Hey you guys don't agree with me and that's fine but I highly doubt you will change my mind.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Look how often the forwards are fast breaking out of their own zone before the d has control of the puck. The d turns it over and there is no forward support, bang its in our net.

 

I can't speak for anyone else but this I dead on an issue that I have seen a lot and should have been addressed.

 

It is the equivalent of a WR worrying about running after the catch before he has even secured the football.

 

So it just boils down a lot to just fumbling the puck from never mostly because they don't even know what to do with it once they have it. Basically hockey IQ is my minds eye.

 

And that occurs a lot through out the lineup.

 

Sloppiness. When does it end?

 

How do they fix it?

 

Only they can.

 

 

[pilldoc]

16 minutes ago, Fizz said:

But I also think a lot of the reason for the poor play is the system AV is asking them to play.

 

and was their poor play due to Steven's system?

and was their poor play due to Laviolette's system?

and was their poor play due to Berube's system?

and was their poor play due to Hakstol's system?

and was their poor play due to Gordon's system? (granted he was an interim coach only)

 

asking for a friend .......

 

As mentioned before the core has had 5 Head Coaches during the course of the last 10 years.  At what point does one look at the common denominator which are the players themselves?  The blaming of coaches has got to stop.  IF you have players not adjusting to the coach then ship them out ....the inmates should not be running the asylum.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, Fizz said:

The article does align with my opinion of AV, and yes it saved me a lot of typing. 

Hey you guys don't agree with me and that's fine but I highly doubt you will change my mind.

 

It's ok we don't have to agree. It's a hockey forum. Remember it's supposed to be fun too.

 

And if we all agreed then it wouldn't be fun.

 

And I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. Don't stress.

 

I enjoy new folks here. We can all vent together less at each other.

 

It's all good.

[Fizz]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else but this I dead on an issue that I have seen a lot and should have been addressed.

 

It is the equivalent of a WR worrying about running after the catch before he has even secured the football.

 

So it just boils down a lot to just fumbling the puck from never mostly because they don't even know what to do with it once they have it. Basically hockey IQ is my minds eye.

 

And that occurs a lot through out the lineup.

 

Sloppiness. When does it end?

 

How do they fix it?

 

Only they can.

 

 

I think it would help if the forwards stayed a little longer. The d could make shorter passes and would have help if the puck is turned over. The long stretch fast break pass is great if you have dmen that can execute, we don't.

[pilldoc]

11 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Giroux is not a leader.

 

Absolutely agree ........ 

 

13 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Focus on the PP, it looks horrible.

 

That has been an issue for years before even AV arrived ..... 

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, Fizz said:

The article does align with my opinion of AV, and yes it saved me a lot of typing. 

Hey you guys don't agree with me and that's fine but I highly doubt you will change my mind.

Im not trying to change your mind. Im just trying to understand it, as it relates to your POV

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, Fizz said:

I think it would help if the forwards stayed a little longer. The d could make shorter passes and would have help if the puck is turned over. The long stretch fast break pass is great if you have dmen that can execute, we don't.

 

I agree.

 

They have to make sure possession has taken place before breaking out.

 

And provide a quick outlet to get the transition going...but most importantly it doesn't matter without the puck.

 

Comes down to discipline.

 

Training and preparation is what you fall back on when things break down.

 

And that isn't happening.

[pilldoc]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

Comes down to discipline.

 

Training and preparation is what you fall back on when things break down.

 

And that falls squarely on the players shoulders.  Can't coach disciple and you can't can coach training and preparation.  It is on the oneus of the players to do that themselves....

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

As mentioned before the core has had 5 Head Coaches during the course of the last 10 years. 

 

Exactly if my math is right...

 

That is 3 Stanley Cup rings.

 

And 7 Cup appearances between them all.

 

Enough experience 

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, pilldoc said:

 

And that falls squarely on the players shoulders.  Can't coach disciple and you can't can coach training and preparation.  It is on the oneus of the players to do that themselves....

 

Exactly.

 

 

  Players have to put the work in on the ice and class room and ask questions and most importantly work on their weaknesses.

[CoachX]

The coaching point is probably moot

 

I dont see AV going anywhere.

 

But I am curious why the other two wingnuts are still here.  Defense sucks. PP blows goats. Are they just collecting paychecks also?

[SCFlyguy]

I think we are seeing the failure of Hextall's build from within vision, due to two indisputable facts:

 

1.  Hextall never tore the team all the way down and built the assets up by trading Giroux, Voracek, Simmons, etc. when he first arrived.  There was never any chance those players were still going to be good when the young prospects developed.

 

2.  Hextall failed to draft a single superstar and please don't tell me Hart and Provorov are superstars.

[pilldoc]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The coaching point is probably moot

 

I dont see AV going anywhere.

 

But I am curious why the other two wingnuts are still here.  Defense sucks. PP blows goats. Are they just collecting paychecks also?

 

I have no issue at all if the ax falls on Yeo and Therrien .......   Agree.  AV is probably going no where.  Time to start moving players .......

[ruxpin]

17 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Well first thing I would do is focus more on defence. You have a young goalie who will be a star in this league but isn't there yet. You have defense men that are not playing well. Focus on your own end more before the fast break. Focus on the PP, it looks horrible. Try firing up the team not being so passive.

Giroux is not a leader.

I have no idea what a lace count is.

I will always maintain AV is not a good coach once you start playing the same team's over and over.

 

 

The lace count thing is a reference to something ridiculous I was asked on our predecessor board years ago.  Kind of an inside joke for old-timers largely because I was feeling self-conscious about asking such pointed questions.

 

The things you're asking for in your first statement are being done.  We simply don't have the horses on defense currently.  We have three defensemen. And even they are not playing particularly well.    The powerplay is ridiculous, I agree.   What I can't tell from here is whether it's structure or lazy players phoning it in and not moving for openings, etc.   It seems to me when set plays from faceoffs work, they're good.  The other 90% of the time it's a disaster.

Your last statement is obviously an opinion statement and just as valid as anyone's.  When you posted that the first time I did kind of entertain your thought--at least as it applies to this year.  I don't think it's supported by his runs to the finals in previous years, though in each case he had goalies playing extremely well -- like he did last year, actually.   This year, clearly not so much.   So maybe there's still something to that.    And this year it's arguable.

 

But what the position doesn't do is explain the track record this group has of eating coaches.   I'm just seeing exactly the same from the same core group that I've seen for a decade.  At some point, it's quite clear what the issue is:  the core group.

 

Whether AV is effective or not may or may not be a valid discussion, but at this point it's a side discussion and not the root cause.

 

 

[Fizz]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The coaching point is probably moot

 

I dont see AV going anywhere.

 

But I am curious why the other two wingnuts are still here.  Defense sucks. PP blows goats. Are they just collecting paychecks also?

You are right AV is not going anywhere as long as Fletcher is GM much to my chagrin. Good question as to why the assistants are still here. 

Honest question, do you think Giroux would agree to be traded to a contender?