elmatus

I mean, if this is meant to be an anything goes exercise, then I want McDavid please. I'll take Draisaitl too actually, and I'll grab Makar while I'm at it. Let's start there? Can I get MacKinnon too?

It's really a shame this particular outcome wasn't entirely and completely obvious from the moment it was signed.

The sad truth is there really wasn't anything to be done about the state of this team at this year's trade deadline. The needs we have right now run very deep, and there's just no way any GM could fix this sinking ship. That's not me saying Fletch did a good job in any way, or that I trust him with building this team going forward (I don't), but if we're being honest here, there was absolutely zero chance this team was going to be an impact team this year. I'm not at all interested in the injuries excuse. Would the team have been better without injuries? Yes, of course. The same can be said of every team in NHL history. Would having those injured players have taken this from a bottom five team (which is exactly what they are) to being a playoff team? I'm honestly doubtful. At the very best, we might have had the treat of watching them crash and burn in the first round again. I'm not really sure that should be considered success... This team came into the season as a weak team and are ending the season as a weak team. Arguing over whether they're just weak or very weak is largely besides the point. This team needs a lot of things. It needs way more than can ever be obtained in just a trade deadline. Next year's Flyers are gonna suck guys. They are. Of course they are. The absolute best we can expect of next year's Flyers is a lot of luck leading them to a first round exit, and even just that is far from a sure thing. As far as where to start with moving forward, I think we've all beat the horse enough by now. Yes, in an ideal world, the brass would be put out to pasture. That includes Fletch of course, but also Homer and Clarke and in a perfect world it would also include Scott. Will any of those things happen? Well Homer and Clarke and Scott definitely not. Fletch? I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait and see. But yes, what this team needs most right now is a set of people who can provide better direction and vision than what that crowd has offered over the past way too long. Aside from that, this team needs top end talent. We don't have it. We need it. I guess if there's any possible silver lining here it's that we have a better shot at landing top talent by picking early than not, so that's something. Obviously I wish we weren't in the position of having to rely on fantastic draft picks right now, but that's exactly where we are. We need an influx of top talent, and we need to have a vision that lends itself to building a successful team. Until we get those things, we should continue to expect the same style of bad Flyers teams.

Bold prediction of the day: The Panthers win the cup this year, and Giroux gets MVP honours. Enjoy!

It's Dave Scott.

I don't much care if a captain inspires fear or is inclined to punch faces. I want a captain who can say what needs to be said to keep the team to a plan or help certain players shine. I want a guy who knows when to tell coaches they're doing something wrong and who can propose alternatives based on what they're seeing on the ice. I want a guy who knows how to advocate on behalf of the team with refs in game to help settle some of the human dynamics that are often so important in real time. Is Laughton that guy? I don't know. Very often teams rely on individual skill as primary factor when deciding captains. I imagine this is because players with high levels of skill tend to command a high degree of respect just based on what they can do on the ice. That doesn't make them a good captain necessarily, but it's a quick way to at least check that particular box. I'm honestly a bit baffled as to how Couturier's name hasn't been offered very much. To me, he would seem like the logical successor right now. Laughton's been a good enough soldier, and maybe he's great in the locker room, but I'm surprised Cout's name isn't also a foremost mention at the very least. It makes me wonder and worry if there's some reason we don't know...

Did you read this somewhere? I really hope this isn't true. This will be largely unpopular, but there is a way I can be alright with this trade. Specifically, if the rumour of Giroux only wanting to waive for Florida is true, then fine. He's earned that flexibility given he's the only player worth a d*** we've had on the team in ten years. Do I like it? No. I do feel like a team captain should allow his swan song to be one that makes the team as good as possible when he leaves, but whatever. It's not the end of the world. IF however, the reason for Giroux doubling down on Florida is because Chuck wouldn't agree to re-signing him in the off season, forget that noise. You have to be some kind of special to not understand this team is still very much better with Giroux on it than not. Moreover, if that's the case, not only do you agree to re-sign him, you absolutely get the best possible return you can from whatever team is in the offering. This second scenario would rank right up there with the Risto re-sign to me and propel Chuck to quite possibly the worst GM in the league as far as I'm concerned. It would feel to me like Chuck is giving the finger not only to Giroux but frankly to the entire fanbase also.

I definitely hope this is a situation where you're right and I'm wrong!

No one is going to trade for Braun.

If Risto doesn't play, the team will be improved. If anything, they'd finish higher not lower. This is a bottom dweller either way mind you. I am very very worried at what Fletch will try to do to somehow salvage his job in the off season. Especially after this latest decision regarding Risto, I see no reason to believe in his ability to manage this team transition. I'm expecting more boneheaded moves for over-the-hill players in the near future.

Yeah, this is the last straw for me. Fletch needs to go. This is easily his biggest failed decision to date imo, and it's not like he was riding a great track record before this. Ditch him now before he does something even worse.

Double thumbs up for the Tool reference? That should be a thing, but only for this specific case. Because Giroux is an above average player who has been instrumental in keeping this team on the bubble over his tenure. Without him, this team would have (possibly) been a bottom dweller, which would have meant having higher 1st round picks to play with and maybe getting in on something like a McDavid or Matthews for instance. We never had a shot at landing any generational type guys, in part because of Giroux propping up the team and keeping us on the bubble. At the same time, Giroux isn't a gamechanger of that ilk himself, so he isn't good enough to make the team into a playoff team just on his skill set alone. He would have needed other elite talents around him, which is something he never had. So the idea in short is that he's been good enough to make this into a bubble team, but not good enough to make it into a contender. It's worth noting very few players in the league can do that singlehandedly of course, but it is what it is. Obviously, that's just a what if style theory, but it does seem a plausible one. Here's another prediction some folks here may hate: If Giroux gets traded to a contender and ends up playing with proper elite talent for essentially the first time in his career, I have a strong feeling he's going to show a level of skill he's rarely been able to show here. That's going to suck, and many (myself included) are going to hate watching it happen. But, that's exactly what I think will happen. Some will cry "why did he never play this way in Philly?!?!" and the more reasonable will chime in with "he's never had that level of team to play on", which is exactly true and sad and not at all fun to consider when you're a fan of the crappy team in question.

I guess I'm just not sure what this is supposed to mean? He's a skill-based playmaker who has very good ice vision, can create space for others, and is at his best when making high skill passes that few players in the world can do. I feel he's done that very consistently the whole time. I don't think it's fair to suggest he doesn't care or he doesn't try. I think it is fair to suggest he can't do it all, and there are things he shouldn't frankly be asked to do, because that's just not his game. He's scored a bunch of points, so he's clearly "bringing it" in that regard. But if we're not talking about his actual captain duties of motivating the team, working as a go-between with coaches, and dealing with refs, what are we talking about in terms of his captaincy? To me, if we're going to suggest he's not a great captain, those are very much the things we should be considering. It doesn't seem fair to say he's not a good captain because he's not Lindros or Clarke. There are virtually no such players left in the NHL today, but plenty of NHL captains who find success. This is all besides the point of the thread also. Again, in terms of his value to a contending team, his skills make him easily the most impactful player on the market this season. What that fetches in a trade though, with all the challenges related to his status longer term and age, is anyone's guess.

I get the frustration for this team for sure. What I don't get is how the team's failures are so much about Giroux. The way folks are talking, one would think being a captain should be enough to give a player superpowers. Sure, he's not the best player in the world, but he is not the reason this team has been mediocre at best since 2010. Maybe he's not the best captain. I honestly don't know what he's like in the locker room. All I know is the team hasn't had any success in the last decade. That sucks of course, but I also realize this is a team sport with ~20 other players. Giroux can't mind control them or give them super speed or turn into the Hulk because a C was stitched on to his sweater. Is he an able motivator? I don't know. Does he work well as a go-between with coaches? No clue. Is he skilled at playing the refs during a game? Actually that one we can pretty well see he's not. Are there better players in the league? Yeah, of course there are. But as the fourth highest producer in the last decade, the list in front of him is really quite short. Put another way, take Giroux out of the equation, and this team would have gotten no higher than 20-25th in this timeframe. The only sensible argument to make for Giroux being a problem is that without him, there's a reasonable chance we would have bottomed out and had more shots at some other top end talent along the way. As far as his trade value goes, he's going to have his pick of suitors, and for very good reason. Yeah, the return won't be as much as it might have been a season or two ago -- which is when he should have been traded imo -- but it should still be very solid for a guy who can easily fit in wherever he's most needed on any team in the NHL. For a contender looking to win this season, he should absolutely be no.1 on the radar.

Well for starters he's the fourth highest scorer in the league over the last decade. His best comparable in terms of production is John Tavares, who is no slouch either, and who entered the league as a franchise marquee name, 1st overall pick. His record includes a season over 100pts, which is no small feat in today's NHL. It's also worth noting for many seasons he was exceptional on the powerplay. In fact, he has more PPP than any other player in the league over his career. If playing on the wing (which he can play both very well), he also doubles as a phenomenal face off guy with a 56% FO win rate throughout his career. Despite moderate team playoff success, Giroux individually is a great playoff performer (just a bit under 1ppg). He's been a captain now for years. That may not mean much here, where the only benchmark of note is winning the cup, but that sort of thing always means something for teams looking to bolster for a deep run. On this team, he's been named the MVP five times -- more than anyone else. He also happens to be a very low injury risk who misses very few games. In fact, given he can plug literally anywhere in the top six of essentially any team in the league, he's amazing as injury protection for a playoff run. Winger goes down, Giroux can slip into his spot. Centre? Yep, he can do that too. Got a weak link on PP1? Here you go. To top all of that off, he's managed to do those things with his primary wingman being one Jakub Voracek. Imagine what a determined G could do as part of a team that actually has proper elite snipers. Honestly, G has never held this team back, but I'm pretty confident the team has held him.

He is without a doubt the most sought after guy. Only on a pissed off Flyers forum is this not a very obvious thing. Giroux may not have led this team to a cup in his time here, but he's running on an awful long list of other accolades. He would be a huge boon to any team that lands him. Put another way, no other player available at this deadline offers the skill level he does to a team right now. Now, that doesn't mean he'll command a massive return of course. Being the most skilled and impactful player available isn't the only variable there. He controls his fate for one thing, and can essentially just refuse to go somewhere if he doesn't think it's worth his time in some way. Also, he's a rental, which also impacts the return. In short, his value on the ice is indisputable; his value as a trade chip at this moment is complicated. I still think he ends up in Colorado.

I feel like the most likely choice of next captain is Couts. Whether he should be or whatever, I don't know, but that would follow the typical pattern of the captain being one of the most highly regarded players on the team. Tricky bit is just that none of us have any real idea what these guys are like in the locker room, which should be a much bigger factor than just skill. For all I know, Laughton is decent at settling the team down and getting them focused on the plan, or helping guide coaches on what they're seeing on the ice during games. If so, give it to him. If we're being honest, the choice of captain is hardly what will lead to any great turn around here. The captain doesn't get cloned and play on every line or anything. Pick someone who seems alright at getting folks to paddle in the same direction. That's about the best that can happen. I don't expect the team to suddenly morph into something they're not just cause someone got a letter on their sweater.

Sorry boys, I'm not in the habit of calling people out. Besides, maybe they meant to add some context to that thought, and I just missed it.

I'm really not sure what to think about Risto tbh. I was and remain on the side of him just not being an effective NHL dman. I can somewhat understand the idea that he was on a crap team, and it stands to reason he might be better on a "better" team, but that to me feels an awful lot like a hypothesis. He was an integral part of that Sabres core in his time there. He wasn't just some cog on the roster. He was looked at as essentially their back end pillar, at least up until Dahlin showed up to take that crown from him. Despite that, the guy has really never had a good season as far as dmen go. His main selling point is that he's willing to do higher risk stuff and he's very willing to hit people. All that is fine, and it can even have its place at times... but it's hardly a winning formula for a modern NHL dman. But, I can understand maybe taking a swing at him. I never expected him to work out, and he really hasn't. I mean, he really hasn't guys... I don't know what some folks are smoking talking about how he's been one of the "best dmen on the team" but he really really hasn't. He hasn't, and the team hasn't gotten any better since he's been here either. That's a lose-lose to me. So, yep, the payment to get him was an overpayment. At the very least, I really hope Fletch can move past that bit and send him somewhere else. Please, please do not resign him for the money and term he's going to ask for. Because he totally will ask for way more than he's worth... and I really hope we're not the ones to give it to him. The first step is acceptance.

To say it’s too early to judge him is beyond an understatement. I hope he can be part of a culture change in the org that leads to a more interesting decade to come. I don’t expect much of him in his current role mind you. Assistant to the GM sounds like he may have Fletch’s ear but ultimately decisions won’t be his to make. That’s fine. I see nothing wrong with bringing in more viewpoints. Hopefully it works out for the best somehow. i highly doubt this appointment will go down as a major turning point. He’s still going to just be an office cog in the end. I’ll put it in the “well, it’s something i guess” category.

I could see Miller if the goal is to try and keep the player you get, but not on a straight comparison. Giroux definitely brings more to the table than Miller imo. If the team just wants to go all in this year, Giroux should be the main target.

I have to imagine Giroux will be the most sought after trade chip at this deadline. We may love to disparage him here, but the truth is he's a remarkably good and highly flexible top six player. He can play any forward position and be a threat, on either of the top two lines, he's great on faceoffs, and (i'm sure folks will lambast me for this) he's been in a position of leadership for ten years. While it's fair to suggest he may not have been the best at that role, I've no doubt it will have impacted the type of player he is in a generally positive manner. The only real slight of course is that he's clearly a rental. That and I expect he will only be sent to a contender, so the return won't be as significant as it might have been otherwise. But, that's still a bunch of teams who would all want him, including some number who frankly would need exactly the tools he can bring to a playoff push. Also, as @CoachX pointed out, I expect he'd be willing to move away from his fam for a short stint and chance at a cup, so I don't think it will be that hard to get him to move his NMC even with a young family at home. He has been nothing but a trooper and team player in his time here. Putting up a fuss now would seem very out of character for him. It's three months, and he's fully capable of signing back in Philly afterwards. Oh, I forgot also there is one other hitch. Fletch has done nothing to inspire confidence in his dealings with other teams or players so far. If we get a meh return on Giroux, it won't be because of Giroux, it will be entirely because of Fletch. And hey, if somehow he'd rather move the whole thing over to Ottawa to go back home in his final years, just be sure to get their 2023 1st rounder as part of the mix. It's not like the Sens will be any better next season.

I get this for sure, and I do appreciate your overall optimistic take on things. To be honest, I sometimes feel the sting of disillusion when i read some of your posts, because I was once very much the optimism-first kind of guy. I think at this point, I've just come to terms with the fact that A) my hopes were wrong, and B) there's too much actual evidence for me to try and keep up the charade of optimism. Eventually, the most realistic viewpoint sets in, and though it took time for me too, I've come to terms with it. I was a big believer in the Hexy rebuild. I still think he at least tried to do things mostly the right way. I also think many of the picks made during his tenure actually turned out to be pretty solid NHLers. I've heard the same stories as all of you about how he was as an executive, and yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were a complete sh** of a boss. I mean, it's Hexy after all. But, even if I concede that he did fairly well with his time, it wasn't enough to build a contender. In fact, it's in part because that rebuild didn't work, that I've come to terms with what this team is really lacking -- and that's top end talent. The current roster is not a bad roster. Many of the guys Hexy drafted are on the team now, and they're actually pretty solid! They're just not the upper echelon kind of guys a team really needs to be competitive in today's NHL. Fletch on the other hand has been... Honestly, I'm not even sure it's fair to blame Fletch. I feel like he was brought in to tweak a team on the cusp and make it into a contender. That to me is ridiculous right from the onset, because this team never had the players necessary to be a contender anyway. So either way, he was doomed to fail. What irks me more is that should have been plenty obvious to anyone paying attention. By the time Fletch got here at all, the team had already amassed several years of subpar play. The idea they were just a Hayes away from being actually competitive is laughable at best. So either the ownership and upper brass just didn't want to admit how far this team was from contention, or they know very little about hockey, or they weren't really paying attention. Regardless, that's a crap way to try and run a professional sports team. I'm not letting Fletch off the hook here either. The Hayes contract was an instant mistake. Ristolainen was a second. He's made his share of gaffes. That said, I do wonder if some of those might have been avoided, if only he weren't being asked to enact an irrational amount of optimism.

I agree with this bit for sure. Look at teams like the Pens, who've been milking their star duo for years now, consistently attracting decent FAs and getting favourable trades to complement their core, and they've been competitive since something like second year Crosby. Players want to play with him in particular, so they attract players much more easily than most teams. Washington is similar, albeit with less playoff success for much of the Ovi era. That's definitely the absolute best way, when all the chips fall in your favour. But that's really the key. You have to have chips fall in your favour first. None of that happens without the Pens getting a 2nd overall and then a 1st overall *and* having them both live up to the hype and become two of the best players in NHL history. That type of scenario is hardly something we should ever consider common or anywhere near likely. It was amazing luck on the part of the Pens, and in retrospect it probably saved their (at the time) floundering franchise. Similarly, virtually all proper contenders in the cap era have relied on key top end talent that was drafted and developed by that team. That top end talent is what makes up the core to build around. And when I say top end talent, I mean actual top end talent -- not Farabee or TK or Frost. Here's the real kicker though: That type of player very very rarely ever gets traded. They're drafted. They're developed. Teams do not get rid of those guys. So yeah, in an ideal situation, you just keep re-stocking via things like free agency and trades, and the team remains competitive for a longer period of time. That only works if you have a solid core that includes some of the best players on the planet. Get that, and you can retool for days. Without that, you're just taking shots in the dark. JVR, Niskanen, Hayes, Ellis, Risto, Atkinson -- all guys who were obtained in the ways you've mentioned. Some of these guys are even good players! Atkinson is great at what he does. Niskanen has always been a phenomenal two-way dman. Ellis despite injuries is also really quite good. Hell, even Hayes is a good 2-3C (the mistake here was mostly assuming he's better than that and way overpaying for his services). JVR is an understandable shot too, if the team actually had a proper contending core, and he was coming in as just a complementary (let's see if this works) kind of piece. Risto was awful, is awful. Always will be awful. Needs to be ditched immediately. Those are the guys that can generally be obtained via trades and FA, and for most of them, obtaining them doesn't seem like such a silly idea if -- and this is the big if -- if the team you're adding them to already has a core that includes some truly elite level players. Giroux is the closest thing we've had to that level of player over this decade plus, and he hasn't been enough.

Surprisingly enough, he's also been in the Wild system for fairly long stints...