Game 29: Philadelphia Flyers at Arizona Coyotes; 12/11/22 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

Nah, keep Sandstrom in there. They don't need to start destroying another goalie's confidence.

 

I'm good with whatever they decide to do.

 

Haven't been watching.

[radoran]

9 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Sharpness aside, I worry that physically and psychologically, Hart will wear out.  Morganti raised the psychological question as well. In one of his post-game pressers, Torts said that Hart was young and that fatigue is an excuse.  I'll buy into that for so long, but on a losing team, incessant play may take its toll.  

 

I absolutely hear you. I think they wore Mason out, for example. Physically and psychologically.

 

Hart should absolutely have been able to go last night. Should he have gone is the question. I really do think Torts wanted to win this game against a similar opponent in a college barn after a hard fought Vegas game.

 

If this season, to Torts' own point, isn't about "winning games" why else is Hart out there?

 

The season isn't about winning games, but keeping your team engaged can be.

 

Then you take that swing and come up short.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

If this season, to Torts' own point, isn't about "winning games" why else is Hart out there?

 

The season isn't about winning games, but keeping your team engaged can be

This is a difficult line to walk.

These guys don't like losing. 

No one does.

Getting a win every now and again will be important to keep the morale all the way out of the dumpster.

 

I think starting Hart was absolutely the right decision.

Get the boys feeling like good about themselves before they come back East vs the division teams.

Sucks for them to play "as good as the can" and still come up short. It will be a masterful job of motivation if guys stay engaged through all the losing that's on the horizon.

[flyer4ever]

21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

This is a difficult line to walk.

These guys don't like losing. 

No one does.

Getting a win every now and again will be important to keep the morale all the way out of the dumpster.

 

I think starting Hart was absolutely the right decision.

Get the boys feeling like good about themselves before they come back East vs the division teams.

Sucks for them to play "as good as the can" and still come up short. It will be a masterful job of motivation if guys stay engaged through all the losing that's on the horizon.

Apparently the current management team likes losing, just often enough to never draft anyone of consequence. If I'm Carter Hart I'm begging for a trade out of Philly. There is no end in sight. The very fact that the chucktard is still in place is all the evidence needed. These imbiciles really do believe that Ellis, Couturier and Atkinson healthy make them a playoff team. All they do is move the mediocre draft pick lower. Total dysfunction in Flyer junction. How's that Gritty, whiny enough ???

[radoran]

34 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

These imbiciles really do believe that Ellis, Couturier and Atkinson healthy make them a playoff team. All they do is move the mediocre draft pick lower.

 

The fundamental failing of the organization is their unfailing belief in "make the playoffs and anything can happen."

 

It's why they continually went with the "definitely a playoff team" mantra while being a middling, bubble playoff team for 10 years and staring down the third year out of the playoffs.

 

As long as they believe they can make the playoffs - anything can happen.

 

Freelancing and trying to make the playoffs every year gets you "Won The Trades." It gets you building around a 34-year-old defenceman. It gets you hanging your superstar idol of your prized young winger out to dry in pursuit of two guys who said they weren't coming here anyway and were ultimately failures where they wound up.

 

It gets trades for a 33-year-old winger who hasn't played for over a quarter of the season while mysteriously remaining off IR and a 31-year-old defenceman on LTIR. Not to mention long term commitments to players who had effectively shown their potential because they were either the best available option at the time or the apple of a failed GM's eye or are draft picks who have been on a bad team for a long time.

 

It's been two Cup Finals since 1990. Far more people know The 1975 than remember 1975.

 

They had a guy come in with a different direction, with an outside view from a franchise that actually won something, who was actually a former player and they screwed that up. "Both sides" - to an extent - but they screwed it up.

 

They need to fundamentally disengage from everything that they think this franchise is about and leave the Bullies, Pelle, the Legion, Won The Trades and Robert Earl Freaking Clarke and his goddamn protege behind.

 

START. OVER.

 

Thank you for coming to my RADTalk.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The fundamental failing of the organization is their unfailing belief in "make the playoffs and anything can happen."

 

It's why they continually went with the "definitely a playoff team" mantra while being a middling, bubble playoff team for 10 years and staring down the third year out of the playoffs.

 

As long as they believe they can make the playoffs - anything can happen.

 

Freelancing and trying to make the playoffs every year gets you "Won The Trades." It gets you building around a 34-year-old defenceman. It gets you hanging your superstar idol of your prized young winger out to dry in pursuit of two guys who said they weren't coming here anyway and were ultimately failures where they wound up.

 

It gets trades for a 33-year-old winger who hasn't played for over a quarter of the season while mysteriously remaining off IR and a 31-year-old defenceman on LTIR. Not to mention long term commitments to players who had effectively shown their potential because they were either the best available option at the time or the apple of a failed GM's eye or are draft picks who have been on a bad team for a long time.

 

It's been two Cup Finals since 1990. Far more people know The 1975 than remember 1975.

 

They had a guy come in with a different direction, with an outside view from a franchise that actually won something, who was actually a former player and they screwed that up. "Both sides" - to an extent - but they screwed it up.

 

They need to fundamentally disengage from everything that they think this franchise is about and leave the Bullies, Pelle, the Legion, Won The Trades and Robert Earl Freaking Clarke and his goddamn protege behind.

 

START. OVER.

 

Thank you for coming to my RADTalk.

 

 

 

Ah, the good ol' days. Remember when we had a GM that won a trade? Good times.

[FD19372]

6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm good with whatever they decide to do.

 

Haven't been watching.

They're so pathetic , I can't/don't generally watch them. I only watch around one Flyers game every two weeks. It's all I can stomach. However, I've been watching a lot of other NHL games, because I have ESPN +.

[SCFlyguy]

4 hours ago, radoran said:

They need to fundamentally disengage from everything that they think this franchise is about and leave the Bullies, Pelle, the Legion, Won The Trades and Robert Earl Freaking Clarke and his goddamn protege behind.

Yeah, I'm pretty much "F the Bullies" at this point.  We have fewer championships than Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Colorado, yet the organization acts like they have the Yankees' history.

[radoran]

9 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Yeah, I'm pretty much "F the Bullies" at this point.  We have fewer championships than Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Colorado, yet the organization acts like they have the Yankees' history.

 

I love the Bullies.

 

This isn't 1975.

 

And when your benchmark for success is 48 years old you might want to check the calendar.

 

[mojo1917]

18 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

The very fact that the chucktard is still in place is all the evidence needed.

While listening to snow the goalie this week, there was speculation that Fletcher is going to be either fired or kicked upstairs, after the Gretzky Hlinka junior tournament.

That timing is in part because Daniel Briere is involved with that tournament in some fashion and wouldn't be available to become the next GM until after his obligations there are completed.

 

It is Anthony SanFillipo reporting this, and whether people think he's an imbecile or not, he doesn't miss with his "scoops". The context around this point is he was recounting there was a lot of 'smoke' coming from multiple team sources about Chuck's future during the homestand.

Chris Therrien chimed in with saying he's hearing the same thing from the guys he knows who still work in the building.

ASF was saying because Dave Scott is fond of Chuck he might not be fired but promoted to some kind of extra senior advisor role. which is kind, yet sad and stupid. 

 

 

 

 

[radoran]

24 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

which is kind, yet sad and stupid indicative of the problems this franchise continues to create for itself. 

 

FIFY

 

Seriously, having the previous guy just upstairs doesn't help anyone do anything.

 

Just ask Ron Hextall.

[flyercanuck]

24 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

which is kind, yet sad and stupid. 

 

 

I'll bet an upper management of Clarke/Homer/Fletcher with a used to be Flyer would have a totally different mindset on how to build a winner than Clarke/Homer/Fletcher did. 

 

[flyercanuck]

Damn rad...you're quick on the draw!

[SCFlyguy]

And yet we're going to have a bunch of people here celebrating Fletcher's promotion, saying we have to "give Briere a chance" because he could be "the next Shanahan" (except he was no Shanahan as a player), not wanting to hear that Briere might not be the savior and doing everything but planning a parade, yet when the same things that have happened for the last 10 if not 20 years continue to happen and the Flyers continue to step on rakes at every opportunity they will be the first ones to complain and look around and wonder, "what happened?"

 

I'm just going to say it: Danny Briere strikes me as the same type of hothead player as the guys upstairs and, like them, will make a bunch of big moves right away to show everyone he's the new sheriff in town, yet these big moves will only waste more resources (cap and draft) and will accomplish nothing.

[mojo1917]

@SCFlyguy

Pretty sure there will be few, if any, people celebrating Chuck Fletcher's promotion.  Probably his wife and kids...?

People may be celebrating his not being the general manager any longer, but if that comes in the form of a promotion-

Is it celebrate-able at all?

 

I would think having the old guy still around the build is sub-optimal.

And if, in demonstrated Comcast Spectacor fashion;  the new guy is a direct report or even dotted line on the org chart to the old guy or the other senior advisors...what can really change.

On his own, I would want to give the new guy a chance, to turn some things around.

I will wait and see like everyone else. I'm rarely certain about things in the world anymore. 

I have zero control over what happens, so I'll be hoping for the best, but there is a strong chance what you're predicting will come true. 

I hope you're wrong. 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by mojo1917

[radoran]

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

because he could be "the next Shanahan"

 

From teh Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Shanahan made the decision to initiate a long-term, "scorched-earth" rebuild, which he started by firing head coach Randy Carlyle midway through the season despite being in contention for a playoff berth. The team only won only 9 of its 42 games under Carlyle's interim replacement, Peter Horachek, and wound up in second last place in the Eastern Conference and 4th last place in the league. On April 12, 2015, a day after the team's season ended, Shanahan fired Horachek and the rest of the coaching staff, in addition to GM Dave Nonis and several members of the team's scouting staff.

...

he has won praise for the method through which he rebuilt the team, by drafting and developing a young core as opposed to signing older players for a quick fix.

...

However, he and Dubas have come under scrutiny for multiple 1st round postseason exits; the Leafs as a team have not advanced to the second round of the postseason since 2004.

 

Let's acknowledge that it didn't hurt the "scorched Earth rebuild" that from 2008-2018 the Leaves had six top ten picks and one first overall.

 

(But speaking of "development" outside of those top ten picks, there's not a lot to speak of in terms of addtional depth from the draft for Tronno - over that same period only six other picks have played 250+ games)

 

I don't think Briere has the horses, the pull, or the quality draft picks to "duplicate" the "Shanaplan"

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by radoran

[SCFlyguy]

Sorry, I meant Yzerman.  I always get those two Red Wings mixed up, lol.

[radoran]

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Sorry, I meant Yzerman.  I always get those two Red Wings mixed up, lol.

 

Well, I hope the next GM can inherit a 1st overall (Stamkos) and a 2nd overall (Hedman) as the foundation of his genius.

 

Yzey took the immortal Brett Connolly with his first top ten pick in 2011. He would play 134 games for the Lightning at the start of his journeyman career. His two other top 10 picks - Slater Koekkoek and Jonathan Drouin - aren't much to write home about.

 

The 2011 draft was probably his best with Namestikov (1st), Kucherov (2nd), and Palat (7th).

 

He did draft Vasilevsky. And Point.

 

So, start off with a #1C and a #1D. Draft a #1G and hit hard on a 2nd and a 3rd.

 

Fleece the Habs on a Francophone.

 

Wait eight years.

 

Cups.

 

Yzerman is a genius.

 

And @aziz says there is no plan.

 

[SCFlyguy]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I think you're underestimating Yzerman's draft/moves.  They got two foundational players in one draft.  They won the first Cup without that 1C iirc.  The Drouin trade was a landslide win.  The trade for McDonough and JT Miller was great and then they traded Miller to recoup assets.  You're also forgetting Cirelli in the 3rd.  Tyler Johnson as an undrafted UFA.

[aziz]

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

The Drouin trade was a landslide win. 

 

 

Out of curiosity, how do you figure?  looking at numbers, seems pretty much like an apple for an apple.  What was the landslide part of it?

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

 

Out of curiosity, how do you figure?  looking at numbers, seems pretty much like an apple for an apple.  What was the landslide part of it?

 

Sergachev ++ Drouin

[aziz]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Sergachev ++ Drouin

 

I've been out of it, of course, but pure numbers...seems close to a wash.  Or down to preference/need.  More offense on one hand, more defense on the other.  Was it a landslide?

 

[radoran]

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I think you're underestimating Yzerman's draft/moves.  They got two foundational players in one draft.  They won the first Cup without that 1C iirc.  The Drouin trade was a landslide win.  The trade for McDonough and JT Miller was great and then they traded Miller to recoup assets.  You're also forgetting Cirelli in the 3rd.  Tyler Johnson as an undrafted UFA.

 

No, I get all that. I'm mostly devil's advocating, but what I'm saying is that he started off with a solid foundation with a 1/2 overall pick that panned out on the high end.

 

But in terms of replicating the achievement, it has to start with having a Stamkos and a Hedman already on the roster.

 

That makes a lot of GMs look pretty smart, and makes it much easier to shop pieces as he did.

 

His drafting over eight years isn't tremendous. He didn't hit on any of "his" top ten picks. Outside the first round, he had basically one 2 (Kucherov), one 3 (Point), and a 7 (Palat) over eight years.

 

I mentioned fleecing the Habs, and I give him full props for it.

 

It's not that he did a bad job - he did a good job.

 

And also that it took eight (plus) years.

 

Which could make Detroit competitive by 2027?

 

At which point the Flyers will still be an aggressive retool away from contention...

 

[radoran]

1 minute ago, aziz said:

 

I've been out of it, of course, but pure numbers...seems close to a wash.  Or down to preference/need.  More offense on one hand, more defense on the other.  Was it a landslide?

 

 

Pure numbers with sergachev a D and Drouin supposed to be a top 6 C.

 

So the Bolts got a 24yo emerging impact defenceman they just signed for nine years and the Habs got Drouin who is in the last year of what has been a pretty disappointing contract.

 

I'm not a huge THW fan but

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-larceny-revisiting-sergachev-for-drouin-trade/

[aziz]

18 minutes ago, radoran said:

Pure numbers with sergachev a D and Drouin supposed to be a top 6 C.

 

And there it is.  I had it stuck in my head that Drouin was also a D (and ignored that detail on the stats sheets I was obviously looking at).

 

Sorry, carry on, nothing to see here (other than aziz being an idiot.  Just like old times.  :))

 

Edit:  and Yzerman did not sign him to that dumb contract, le Habs did.

Edited December 15, 2022 by aziz