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It’s time for Flyers to finally move on from the past — and a culture that’s been holding them back


pilldoc

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Time to ride into the sunset ......  (2/3 of the trio that brought forth the destruction of this franchise ....thanks for your playing days but it is now time to get the hell out ......)

 

of the Philadelphia Flyers of the Florida Panthers on December 20, 2010 at the Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

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5 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Time to ride into the sunset ......  (2/3 of the trio that brought forth the destruction of this franchise ....thanks for your playing days but it is now time to get the hell out ......)

 

of the Philadelphia Flyers of the Florida Panthers on December 20, 2010 at the Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

 

And I won't even say that to Holmgren. He was ok as a player...riding on the coattails of many players that were way better than him. Talent-wise he was a good 3rd liner, decent 2nd. Terrible coach. Lousy GM. Had a few good moves up his sleeve...and plenty of bad ones. And I'd bet the whole "Minnesota" thing Fletcher was completely obsessed about was also influenced by St. Paul Holmgren...and I don't mean he's a saint. 

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4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

And I won't even say that to Holmgren. He was ok as a player...riding on the coattails of many players that were way better than him. Talent-wise he was a good 3rd liner, decent 2nd. Terrible coach. Lousy GM. Had a few good moves up his sleeve...and plenty of bad ones. And I'd bet the whole "Minnesota" thing Fletcher was completely obsessed about was also influenced by St. Paul Holmgren...and I don't mean he's a saint. 

 

 

Agree on all points ......

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1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

the team doesn’t need to be built by those who understand what it really means to be a Flyer; it needs to be built by those best qualified for the job of constructing a winner. Those who know how to navigate the salary cap.

 

Best way to phrase it just what the Flyers need. And all they need. DGAF where they come from. If they can get back to winning consistently.

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13 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

I agree with the article.  I call this the Flyers "DNA Problem."  It is time to move on.  No Ray Shero, or other tie to the Stanley Cup Era Brigade.  

 

I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone.

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36 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone.

But you hopefully purge it from the talent acquisition and team building mindset.

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3 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone.

You're right...it will take years to get this DNA out of the system.

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Good article thanks for posting it…I hope more NHL writers keep beating the drum for the Old Guard to retire.

 

Toughness is good. Hard to play against is good. Attitude, the old “arrive early in bad humor,” is good. But those qualities are the result of speed and quickness, great vision, soft hands, smart pinches etc. in a word, “talent.” Ristolainen is a perfect example of the Flyers wrongheaded approach (as the writer said). What good is “attitude” and “toughness” in a D-man if he can’t make a quick and accurate outlet pass because his vision and awareness is for sh—? 
 

 

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16 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I agree with the article.  I call this the Flyers "DNA Problem."  It is time to move on.  No Ray Shero, or other tie to the Stanley Cup Era Brigade.  

 

I know, I've heard Shero's name mentioned a few times.....haven't we already been through enough? 

 

Hey, why not Paul Holmgren Jr.? Or maybe Ross Lonsberrys son-in-law?

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At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'.

Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh.

I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired.

 

Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender?

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27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'.

Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh.

I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired.

 

Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender?

For me?

 

Not at all interested. I don't care if his daddy is Peewee Herman.

 

When you have a team being given more ping pong balls than a moose from Captain Kangaroo how hard is it?  I mean, New Jersey too.  But he wasn't handed Fleury, Malkin, and Crosby in Jersey.  He was handed two guys that were very good but needed to be surrounded by help. He was pedestrian at best.

 

I guess I can swat down anyone that's suggested. He's worth consideration, I guess, but I'd really love to try someone that is full of ideas but hasn't had his shot yet.  

 

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35 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'.

Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh.

I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired.

 

Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender?

 

1 playoff appearance in 5 years in New Jersey. From St. Paul Minnesota. Bullies affiliation.

 

Hell no.

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

1 playoff appearance in 5 years in New Jersey. From St. Paul Minnesota. Bullies affiliation.

 

Hell no.

Full rebuild going on in Jersey.

That team looks pretty good to me today.

Minus Hamilton, most of that team are his picks.

 

I was just curious if people would be able to look past his last name...looks like the answer is not likely. 

I don't have a good feel for who would be a good fit.

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Just now, aziz said:

 

Or, you incorporate it, but as a seasoning for the meal, rather than being the meal itself.  Boston does a good job of maintaining that "Bruins" identity they've always had -not far from Philly's- but as a take on the meta, not in favor of the meta.  They bring in high end skill, but favor high end skill that comes with some attitude.  The high end skill is still the first consideration, the attitude comes second at best.

 

I DON'T want to see a Flyers team of delicate high speed stick handling flowers.  But it isn't a binary, it isn't one or the other.  You can build a team -Boston is a good example- of highspeed stick handlers that sometimes punch a guy in the mouth.


this ^^^^^ x100

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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Does Scott Melanby have too much former Flyer stink on him?

 

Not really, he smells way more like a Panther than a Flyer, but....

 

He DOES have too much "why would you even consider him" stink, imo.

 

There is absolutely zero about being a hockey player that has anything to do with being a hockey executive, other than a basic understanding of the game.  And Mellanby's understanding of the game is really specific to three decades ago.  Why do you bring him up?

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1 hour ago, aziz said:

 

Or, you incorporate it, but as a seasoning for the meal, rather than being the meal itself.  Boston does a good job of maintaining that "Bruins" identity they've always had -not far from Philly's- but as a take on the meta, not in favor of the meta.  They bring in high end skill, but favor high end skill that comes with some attitude.  The high end skill is still the first consideration, the attitude comes second at best.

 

I DON'T want to see a Flyers team of delicate high speed stick handling flowers.  But it isn't a binary, it isn't one or the other.  You can build a team -Boston is a good example- of highspeed stick handlers that sometimes punch a guy in the mouth.

Very well said. Very much agree

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@aziz

Following retirement, Mellanby worked for three years in the Vancouver Canucks organization as a special consultant to general manager Mike Gillis and the hockey operations department.[12] Mellanby then spent two years as an assistant coach with the St. Louis Blues before stepping down following the 2011–12 season to pursue other opportunities in hockey.[13]

On May 28, 2012, Mellanby was hired by the Montreal Canadiens as Director of Player Personnel[14] and became an assistant GM on July 30, 2014.[15] On November 27, 2021 the club announced that Mellanby had resigned.[16]

 

He's got okay experience from different organizations, and he looks to be available. 

I don't know too many executives on the rise, so he's a name and he's  familiar. 

 

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28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@aziz

Following retirement, Mellanby worked for three years in the Vancouver Canucks organization as a special consultant to general manager Mike Gillis and the hockey operations department.[12] Mellanby then spent two years as an assistant coach with the St. Louis Blues before stepping down following the 2011–12 season to pursue other opportunities in hockey.[13]

On May 28, 2012, Mellanby was hired by the Montreal Canadiens as Director of Player Personnel[14] and became an assistant GM on July 30, 2014.[15] On November 27, 2021 the club announced that Mellanby had resigned.[16]

 

He's got okay experience from different organizations, and he looks to be available. 

I don't know too many executives on the rise, so he's a name and he's  familiar. 

 


learn something new everyday 

 

thanks 

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@mojo1917

fair enough, you're right, he has some experience there.  Not particularly great results, but he's been there, anyway.

 

You point out a real problem, though:  how do you identify a GM candidate who hasn't been a GM for an NHL team before, or at least high up in an NHL organization?  And even then, "experience" high up in an organization doesn't mean that person did anything of value while in that spot.  A lot of people like Mellanby were handed jobs that show experience, but give no clues as to expertise.  Briere is now the "interim GM" for the Flyers.  Whether he gets the job for real or not, that's on his resume, and puts him on a short list of candidates for other GM gigs.  There is no objective reason to think he has any idea what he's doing, but he's had the title for a bit, so that puts him over the top.

 

It isn't like there's a college degree about managing an NHL team.  What qualifications other that having already done the job are there?  How do you find new talent for that role?  What parameters are there for the General Manager of an NHL team?  I am sure there are literally tens -if not hundreds- of thousands of people out there who know enough and are smart enough to be absolutely brilliant in that job, but there is no effective way of finding them.  "Did he play in the NHL" seems to be the only metric anyone can find, and that's a useless measure.

I'll be honest:  if I were a team President, I'd be looking at forums exactly like this.  At least to build perspective.  The current litmus test of, "has the hockey world heard of this guy, and has he proven himself in an unrelated role to said hockey world" is worthless.  My ego being as tiny as it is, I think I'd make a great GM.  As would others on this site.  Not to mention all of the other deep hockey forums across the continent.  None of those people have credentials, as the only recognized credentials are having done it already.  Or impressed people with their point totals 15 years ago.

 

The salient requirements for an NHL GM are:

 

1.  understands hockey

2. understands the current meta of the NHL game

3. is able to project forward how the meta might shift

4. is analytical and thoughtful as to the holistic composition of an NHL team

5. is clever enough to leverage the language of the standing CBA to best effect, both immediately and over the course of a proposed contract

6. is a strong and cunning negotiator, able to find the most profitable exchange when trades are required

7. able to walk away when a profitable exchange cannot be secured

8. understands the timing and opportunities of the various touchpoints of a season: how to handle pre-season rosters, first day rosters, pre-trade freeze rosters, trade deadlines, post-elimination, pre-draft, post-draft, FA expirations.  These all represent opportunities for advantage.  Advantage can't be found in all, but certainly some.  And walk away from those that do not.

 

And....that's it.  That's what makes a successful GM.  None of those are the skills of a hockey player.  None of those are reserved to people that put up good numbers as a winger.  Several people on this site have those.  It's a deeply weird thing, where probably the best people for that particular job have no previous experience as employees of the NHL or one of its franchises.  But how do you sell some career IT guy in Virginia to the executives and the public as the team's next GM?

 

I included myself in the above, but probably shouldn't have.  The point is the most capable people to do that specific job likely haven't done anything resembling that job before, or have any professional attachment to the league/game.  The "you have to be highly visible in NHL circles already" limitation placed on candidates means teams are almost always working with a hugely reduced candidate pool.  A candidate pool qualified by a quality that has nothing to do with managing a team.  The people most likely to do the best job in that spot are likely way way way outside of consideration for that job.  And that means it will always be a sh|tshow that occasionally works, and often makes us all laugh.

 

So long as it remains insular, so long as "have the fans heard of him" remains a requirement, the GM spot for any team may or may not be filled by a person actually capable of answering the 8 points above.  And in most cases, messes will follow.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, aziz said:

There is absolutely zero about being a hockey player that has anything to do with being a hockey executive…


A former NHL player will presumably know at least something about the personalities managing other teams. He’ll have contacts around the league. I’m not suggesting a former NHL player is automatically preferable to a stranger but industry contacts are generally considered an advantage. 

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5 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

A former NHL player will presumably know at least something about the personalities managing other teams. He’ll have contacts around the league. I’m not suggesting a former NHL player is automatically preferable to a stranger but industry contacts are generally considered an advantage. 

but -and i don't mean to be argumentative, but- how?  A GM will obviously have access to other GMs.  Knowing players by first name, I guess that can help, maybe.  What else?  What contacts are there that would be advantageous to a GM?  He has his scouts, he has his coach, and everyone outside of his team is either an adversary or an opportunity.  What do "contacts" mean?  How do they translate to making good decisions about current and future rosters?

 

I'm not saying they don't, just asking how do they?

 

I feel the role is clouded in mystery and backrooms, but I see very little of that translating to on-ice impact.  Seems to me smart deals are smart deals, clever strategies are clever, and the number of people you can call by their first name is irrelevant. 

 

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