Popular Post pilldoc Posted March 11, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) From "The Athletic" https://theathletic.com/4297092/2023/03/11/philadelphia-flyers-organization-culture-fletcher/ Since it is a protected article I will only post certain portions but you will get the gist ...... "The Flyers are tough. They take care of their own. They promote from within. They spend whatever it takes to win. They don’t believe in taking steps back to take bigger steps forward. True stewards of Flyers culture, the thinking goes, carry the torch of founder Ed Snider, in a relentless march toward inevitable success ..... In the 1970s and 1980s under Snider, the march began. It continued through the 1990s, even as Comcast entered the picture and purchased Snider’s Spectacor, keeping Snider as chairman. The collective of former players and executives even continued to successfully trudge forward in the early 2000s, as the Flyers made another Stanley Cup Final appearance. If ownership has the courage to accept hard truths, March 10, 2023, could also stand as the moment when the old Flyers culture — along with all of its remaining champions — was finally, mercifully deemed in need of retirement. In 2018, it was then-team president Paul Holmgren who pushed for Comcast Spectacor CEO and chairman Dave Scott to remove Ron Hextall from the job. Hextall was too insular, the argument went, and the result was that the Flyers were straying from the culture that Snider had fostered. Alumni felt slighted on multiple levels. The team lacked an identity. And Hextall was infuriatingly patient, a far cry from the hyper-aggressive team-building strategies of Holmgren and Bob Clarke. In stepped Clarke. Less than 24 hours after Hextall was let go, Fletcher’s name popped up as a candidate — and it was no coincidence that Clarke had given Fletcher his first job in hockey in 1993. Fletcher was Clarke’s preferred option. He knew Fletcher to be a genuinely good person, and a collaborative GM at heart. Fletcher wouldn’t freeze out the alumni as Hextall had. Take a look at Scott’s words in July 2019, when he announced that Fletcher would be assuming Holmgren’s position as president of hockey operations in the wake of Holmgren’s retirement. “Probably one of the biggest pluses is (Fletcher is) a collaborative guy, he’s smart and he’s got a very open style,” Scott said. “I came over to spend a day with Paul (this offseason) and was so impressed with the group of people we had. You got Chuck’s staff in there, the new coaching staff in there, the data analytics people together. It’s something I hadn’t seen in the six years I’ve been here. Just full collaboration. And everyone agreeing on what moves we were going to make.” It was a shot at Hextall, yes. But it also played as an endorsement of what Scott had been led to believe mattered most in a successful Flyers front office — collaboration. And that included the franchise legend senior advisers in the organization — Clarke, Holmgren and Bill Barber. They all truly, sincerely care about the Flyers. And they surely were sincerely worried that Flyers culture as they understood it was disintegrating before their eyes — first with Hextall, and then with the continued mediocrity under Fletcher. But the attempts to fix the most important part of the problem — on-ice play — didn’t just prove ineffective. In that regard, the Flyers’ culture proved actively detrimental. When the Rasmus Ristolainen extension was announced, for example, a team source explained that a large part of the internal justification for the move — which ran counter to recommendations from the analytics department (This statement is paramount!) — was the belief that he played “Flyers hockey,” or at least a modern version of it, and that there existed a belief in the organization that they had strayed from that over the preceding few seasons. Now, don’t absolve Fletcher on this one — he had liked Ristolainen for a long time as well. But imagine having a few former NHL GMs in your ear who you respect constantly repeating the mantra that the Flyers needed to be tougher and more physical. It becomes much far easier to brush aside viable concerns from others in the organization regarding pesky little things like tangible on-ice results. By the end of Fletcher’s tenure, moves made in the name of Flyers culture had piled up. 1) There was Ristolainen, of course. 2) The acquisition of Tony DeAngelo fit the desire for more competitiveness in the locker room; old-school hockey people have long admired DeAngelo’s fiery attitude. 3) Nicolas Deslauriers brought a heavyweight enforcer back into the fold." (IMO, all these moves are old school Flyers, which does not fit into today's NHL .....) "Even the Tortorella hire screamed “old-school,” even if Tortorella himself doesn’t quite fit as neatly into that bucket as some may have thought, given his rapid diagnosis that the Flyers were in need of a full-fledged rebuild and couldn’t keep slapping band-aids on their problems in classic Flyers fashion. The result — from the hiring of Fletcher to the continued presence of the old guard to the moves prioritizing toughness over skill and attitude over tangible results — is that the organization is in the worst position in its history. And those stewards of the culture — by relying on the culture itself — helped put it there. Which makes it long past time to set aside said culture for good. .............................. And most importantly, the organization needs to be cleansed of the desire of reconstituting the 1970s Broad Street Bullies style of hockey for a new age." (Look I love the Flyers history of yesteryear as much as anyone else on here. I was just a tad too young for the Cup years but by the late 70's and early 80's, as a teenager, I was bleeding O&B. I genuinely appreciate those teams and that style of hockey in the NHL BUT...that NHL is no longer the new NHL. That style of hockey no longer applies to today..... this team must move forward.) "Philadelphia hockey fans love fights and hits, yes. What do they love more? Wins. Playoff runs. A team with legitimate Cup aspirations. The end result matters far more than the manner in which said results are generated. The Flyers don’t need to crash and bang their way to wins; they just need to win. And in the same vein, the team doesn’t need to be built by those who understand what it really means to be a Flyer; it needs to be built by those best qualified for the job of constructing a winner. Those who know how to navigate the salary cap. Those who understand the importance of analytics. Those who understand that constructing a winner in this era means having a long-term plan and sticking to it." ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This x1000000 "In other words: hire the best people for the job, not the best people who happen to have ties to the Flyers. Brière is enough of a stretch on his own. But despite his status as a Flyers alum, he came up through Comcast first, starting out as VP of hockey operations for the Maine Mariners — owned by Comcast Spectacor but unaffiliated with the Flyers. Combine that with his strong relationship with Valerie Camillo and his openness to analytics (he helped Travis Konecny utilize analytics to improve his play, and enlisted Broad Street Hockey’s Maddie Campbell to do microstat tracking work for his club), and there’s a strong enough argument that he’s not just another in a long line of Flyers traditionalists. That said, if Brière is indeed a near-lock for one of the two jobs, it makes it even more imperative that the second position goes to a true outsider. Not a former Flyer. Not the son of a Flyers great. Not a good friend of Clarke or Holmgren. And not someone beholden to the expectations and limitations of Flyers culture. The old guard had its day. Old-school Flyers culture had its day. But if ownership will take the plunge, this could be when it is finally allowed to be replaced with something new — something that just maybe, might be able to serve as the philosophical foundation for a winning team. Because if there’s anything the last three years in particular have shown, it’s that Flyers culture and its remaining stewards cannot be relied on anymore." -------------------------------------------- Anyway ....enjoy the article. Charlie O'Connor mentions many points that many of us have said here numerous times over and over ....... Over the past year his articles are spot on and not tainted with the usually corporate BS we usually see with beat writers. Edited March 11, 2023 by pilldoc 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) Time to ride into the sunset ...... (2/3 of the trio that brought forth the destruction of this franchise ....thanks for your playing days but it is now time to get the hell out ......) Edited March 11, 2023 by pilldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Time to ride into the sunset ...... (2/3 of the trio that brought forth the destruction of this franchise ....thanks for your playing days but it is now time to get the hell out ......) And I won't even say that to Holmgren. He was ok as a player...riding on the coattails of many players that were way better than him. Talent-wise he was a good 3rd liner, decent 2nd. Terrible coach. Lousy GM. Had a few good moves up his sleeve...and plenty of bad ones. And I'd bet the whole "Minnesota" thing Fletcher was completely obsessed about was also influenced by St. Paul Holmgren...and I don't mean he's a saint. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: And I won't even say that to Holmgren. He was ok as a player...riding on the coattails of many players that were way better than him. Talent-wise he was a good 3rd liner, decent 2nd. Terrible coach. Lousy GM. Had a few good moves up his sleeve...and plenty of bad ones. And I'd bet the whole "Minnesota" thing Fletcher was completely obsessed about was also influenced by St. Paul Holmgren...and I don't mean he's a saint. Agree on all points ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, pilldoc said: the team doesn’t need to be built by those who understand what it really means to be a Flyer; it needs to be built by those best qualified for the job of constructing a winner. Those who know how to navigate the salary cap. Best way to phrase it just what the Flyers need. And all they need. DGAF where they come from. If they can get back to winning consistently. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 I agree with the article. I call this the Flyers "DNA Problem." It is time to move on. No Ray Shero, or other tie to the Stanley Cup Era Brigade. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 13 minutes ago, Howie58 said: I agree with the article. I call this the Flyers "DNA Problem." It is time to move on. No Ray Shero, or other tie to the Stanley Cup Era Brigade. I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 36 minutes ago, Podein25 said: I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone. But you hopefully purge it from the talent acquisition and team building mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 3 hours ago, Podein25 said: I agree Howie. The thing I don't get is that the Flyer identity - tough to play against, hard working, team first etc. - exists *regardless* of whether people like Clarke are around or not. It's in the culture to a large extent, it's in the sign guy's signs, it's in fans' expectations, it's in the minds of the local media. You know what I mean? You don't lose it if Clarke is gone. You're right...it will take years to get this DNA out of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Good article thanks for posting it…I hope more NHL writers keep beating the drum for the Old Guard to retire. Toughness is good. Hard to play against is good. Attitude, the old “arrive early in bad humor,” is good. But those qualities are the result of speed and quickness, great vision, soft hands, smart pinches etc. in a word, “talent.” Ristolainen is a perfect example of the Flyers wrongheaded approach (as the writer said). What good is “attitude” and “toughness” in a D-man if he can’t make a quick and accurate outlet pass because his vision and awareness is for sh—? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 16 hours ago, Howie58 said: I agree with the article. I call this the Flyers "DNA Problem." It is time to move on. No Ray Shero, or other tie to the Stanley Cup Era Brigade. I know, I've heard Shero's name mentioned a few times.....haven't we already been through enough? Hey, why not Paul Holmgren Jr.? Or maybe Ross Lonsberrys son-in-law? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'. Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh. I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired. Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'. Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh. I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired. Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender? For me? Not at all interested. I don't care if his daddy is Peewee Herman. When you have a team being given more ping pong balls than a moose from Captain Kangaroo how hard is it? I mean, New Jersey too. But he wasn't handed Fleury, Malkin, and Crosby in Jersey. He was handed two guys that were very good but needed to be surrounded by help. He was pedestrian at best. I guess I can swat down anyone that's suggested. He's worth consideration, I guess, but I'd really love to try someone that is full of ideas but hasn't had his shot yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 35 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: At least Rejean Shero would bring a championship resume'. Also, he pulled off some pretty good trades while he was in Pgh. I know he had prime Letang, Crosby and Malkinstein- but he managed to build championship teams around them. I cannot remember why he was fired. Here is a question, if Fred Shero wasn't Flyers royalty would Ray Shero be a contender? 1 playoff appearance in 5 years in New Jersey. From St. Paul Minnesota. Bullies affiliation. Hell no. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 1 hour ago, flyercanuck said: 1 playoff appearance in 5 years in New Jersey. From St. Paul Minnesota. Bullies affiliation. Hell no. Full rebuild going on in Jersey. That team looks pretty good to me today. Minus Hamilton, most of that team are his picks. I was just curious if people would be able to look past his last name...looks like the answer is not likely. I don't have a good feel for who would be a good fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post aziz Posted March 12, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2023 19 hours ago, ruxpin said: But you hopefully purge it from the talent acquisition and team building mindset. Or, you incorporate it, but as a seasoning for the meal, rather than being the meal itself. Boston does a good job of maintaining that "Bruins" identity they've always had -not far from Philly's- but as a take on the meta, not in favor of the meta. They bring in high end skill, but favor high end skill that comes with some attitude. The high end skill is still the first consideration, the attitude comes second at best. I DON'T want to see a Flyers team of delicate high speed stick handling flowers. But it isn't a binary, it isn't one or the other. You can build a team -Boston is a good example- of highspeed stick handlers that sometimes punch a guy in the mouth. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Just now, aziz said: Or, you incorporate it, but as a seasoning for the meal, rather than being the meal itself. Boston does a good job of maintaining that "Bruins" identity they've always had -not far from Philly's- but as a take on the meta, not in favor of the meta. They bring in high end skill, but favor high end skill that comes with some attitude. The high end skill is still the first consideration, the attitude comes second at best. I DON'T want to see a Flyers team of delicate high speed stick handling flowers. But it isn't a binary, it isn't one or the other. You can build a team -Boston is a good example- of highspeed stick handlers that sometimes punch a guy in the mouth. this ^^^^^ x100 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Does Scott Melanby have too much former Flyer stink on him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: Does Scott Melanby have too much former Flyer stink on him? Not really, he smells way more like a Panther than a Flyer, but.... He DOES have too much "why would you even consider him" stink, imo. There is absolutely zero about being a hockey player that has anything to do with being a hockey executive, other than a basic understanding of the game. And Mellanby's understanding of the game is really specific to three decades ago. Why do you bring him up? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 1 hour ago, aziz said: Or, you incorporate it, but as a seasoning for the meal, rather than being the meal itself. Boston does a good job of maintaining that "Bruins" identity they've always had -not far from Philly's- but as a take on the meta, not in favor of the meta. They bring in high end skill, but favor high end skill that comes with some attitude. The high end skill is still the first consideration, the attitude comes second at best. I DON'T want to see a Flyers team of delicate high speed stick handling flowers. But it isn't a binary, it isn't one or the other. You can build a team -Boston is a good example- of highspeed stick handlers that sometimes punch a guy in the mouth. Very well said. Very much agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 @aziz Following retirement, Mellanby worked for three years in the Vancouver Canucks organization as a special consultant to general manager Mike Gillis and the hockey operations department.[12] Mellanby then spent two years as an assistant coach with the St. Louis Blues before stepping down following the 2011–12 season to pursue other opportunities in hockey.[13] On May 28, 2012, Mellanby was hired by the Montreal Canadiens as Director of Player Personnel[14] and became an assistant GM on July 30, 2014.[15] On November 27, 2021 the club announced that Mellanby had resigned.[16] He's got okay experience from different organizations, and he looks to be available. I don't know too many executives on the rise, so he's a name and he's familiar. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted March 13, 2023 Author Share Posted March 13, 2023 28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: @aziz Following retirement, Mellanby worked for three years in the Vancouver Canucks organization as a special consultant to general manager Mike Gillis and the hockey operations department.[12] Mellanby then spent two years as an assistant coach with the St. Louis Blues before stepping down following the 2011–12 season to pursue other opportunities in hockey.[13] On May 28, 2012, Mellanby was hired by the Montreal Canadiens as Director of Player Personnel[14] and became an assistant GM on July 30, 2014.[15] On November 27, 2021 the club announced that Mellanby had resigned.[16] He's got okay experience from different organizations, and he looks to be available. I don't know too many executives on the rise, so he's a name and he's familiar. learn something new everyday thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 @mojo1917 fair enough, you're right, he has some experience there. Not particularly great results, but he's been there, anyway. You point out a real problem, though: how do you identify a GM candidate who hasn't been a GM for an NHL team before, or at least high up in an NHL organization? And even then, "experience" high up in an organization doesn't mean that person did anything of value while in that spot. A lot of people like Mellanby were handed jobs that show experience, but give no clues as to expertise. Briere is now the "interim GM" for the Flyers. Whether he gets the job for real or not, that's on his resume, and puts him on a short list of candidates for other GM gigs. There is no objective reason to think he has any idea what he's doing, but he's had the title for a bit, so that puts him over the top. It isn't like there's a college degree about managing an NHL team. What qualifications other that having already done the job are there? How do you find new talent for that role? What parameters are there for the General Manager of an NHL team? I am sure there are literally tens -if not hundreds- of thousands of people out there who know enough and are smart enough to be absolutely brilliant in that job, but there is no effective way of finding them. "Did he play in the NHL" seems to be the only metric anyone can find, and that's a useless measure. I'll be honest: if I were a team President, I'd be looking at forums exactly like this. At least to build perspective. The current litmus test of, "has the hockey world heard of this guy, and has he proven himself in an unrelated role to said hockey world" is worthless. My ego being as tiny as it is, I think I'd make a great GM. As would others on this site. Not to mention all of the other deep hockey forums across the continent. None of those people have credentials, as the only recognized credentials are having done it already. Or impressed people with their point totals 15 years ago. The salient requirements for an NHL GM are: 1. understands hockey 2. understands the current meta of the NHL game 3. is able to project forward how the meta might shift 4. is analytical and thoughtful as to the holistic composition of an NHL team 5. is clever enough to leverage the language of the standing CBA to best effect, both immediately and over the course of a proposed contract 6. is a strong and cunning negotiator, able to find the most profitable exchange when trades are required 7. able to walk away when a profitable exchange cannot be secured 8. understands the timing and opportunities of the various touchpoints of a season: how to handle pre-season rosters, first day rosters, pre-trade freeze rosters, trade deadlines, post-elimination, pre-draft, post-draft, FA expirations. These all represent opportunities for advantage. Advantage can't be found in all, but certainly some. And walk away from those that do not. And....that's it. That's what makes a successful GM. None of those are the skills of a hockey player. None of those are reserved to people that put up good numbers as a winger. Several people on this site have those. It's a deeply weird thing, where probably the best people for that particular job have no previous experience as employees of the NHL or one of its franchises. But how do you sell some career IT guy in Virginia to the executives and the public as the team's next GM? I included myself in the above, but probably shouldn't have. The point is the most capable people to do that specific job likely haven't done anything resembling that job before, or have any professional attachment to the league/game. The "you have to be highly visible in NHL circles already" limitation placed on candidates means teams are almost always working with a hugely reduced candidate pool. A candidate pool qualified by a quality that has nothing to do with managing a team. The people most likely to do the best job in that spot are likely way way way outside of consideration for that job. And that means it will always be a sh|tshow that occasionally works, and often makes us all laugh. So long as it remains insular, so long as "have the fans heard of him" remains a requirement, the GM spot for any team may or may not be filled by a person actually capable of answering the 8 points above. And in most cases, messes will follow. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 54 minutes ago, aziz said: There is absolutely zero about being a hockey player that has anything to do with being a hockey executive… A former NHL player will presumably know at least something about the personalities managing other teams. He’ll have contacts around the league. I’m not suggesting a former NHL player is automatically preferable to a stranger but industry contacts are generally considered an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said: A former NHL player will presumably know at least something about the personalities managing other teams. He’ll have contacts around the league. I’m not suggesting a former NHL player is automatically preferable to a stranger but industry contacts are generally considered an advantage. but -and i don't mean to be argumentative, but- how? A GM will obviously have access to other GMs. Knowing players by first name, I guess that can help, maybe. What else? What contacts are there that would be advantageous to a GM? He has his scouts, he has his coach, and everyone outside of his team is either an adversary or an opportunity. What do "contacts" mean? How do they translate to making good decisions about current and future rosters? I'm not saying they don't, just asking how do they? I feel the role is clouded in mystery and backrooms, but I see very little of that translating to on-ice impact. Seems to me smart deals are smart deals, clever strategies are clever, and the number of people you can call by their first name is irrelevant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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