So what now?

[brelic]

I agree it's a lot of money. But Weber, IMO, is the best there is. And he brings all the tools you'd want, at an age where he'll be good for a long time. Nashville doesn't need Bob with Rinne. He could be part of a package, but they'd want offence you'd think. And a Dman back.

I'll take your word for it, because I don't watch Nashville play unless it's against the Flyers. My exposure to Suter and Weber is pretty nil, so I'm going only on what people are saying.

I'm just saying that given our defensive depth, we could keep Carle and get a top pairing guy with a lower profile and lower cost, so we have more love to go around rather than spending $8M on one guy. Teams that do that seem to lack depth.

If we really want a stud defenseman, I'd rather get a prospect and develop him, and pay the lower cost over trying to pry Weber or Suter away from Nashville and other teams.

[brelic]

Would Walker and Shelley get it done for Weber? Tough blue chip players; one the formidable anchor of any teams blue line, the other an offensive juggernaut that can contribute in any situation.

Fingers crossed.

OK, ha ha me trying to be a funny guy.

In reality, I think it would take a lot more than this team is willing to deal to make this Sutter trade happen. Our offense is clicking and our D is lacking. The only asset worth a damn that we could give up is Bobrovsky and Nashville is not in need of his services.

I hate that Pronger is hurt, but maybe we need to look at a 3/4 guy rather than a 1/2 guy.

I agree. I think we would just hurt this team in the short term (and maybe even long term) by going Suter or bust.

Unless you can get him on the open market, at which point you will grossly overpay in terms of salary AND years. I do not want anything longer than 5 years, but you know he will want more.

[KnucklesNilan]

LEAVE THE D ALONE! This nice mix of vets and young guns are playing JUST FINE! They are all stepping up without Pronger.. in fact, they are playing better when Pronger WAS in the lineup. Do not mess with something that is not broken!

Edited December 16, 2011 by KnucklesNilan

[Bertmega]

@brelic

I have a feeling too that Holmgren will wait till the offseason to address this issue. I am worried that this team will get eaten alive with D we have in the playoffs, yet if we do sell the farm we will be right back to where we were last year.

When Gus comes back we may have a better look at what this team needs.

[mojo1917]

I'm just saying that given our defensive depth, we could keep Carle and get a top pairing guy with a lower profile and lower cost, so we have more love to go around rather than spending $8M on one guy. Teams that do that seem to lack depth

The more i think about this, the more i like the idea of resigning carle and finding the lower profile quality guy, that guy could even be a top 4 talent, but needs to be established as such and not a project.

with regard to folks wanting to trade schenn, keep in mind Giroux has a concussion and was hit in the same part of the head as Crosby was,so i don't use any of our young centermen as trade chips, i also don't think i trade danny briere since the young centermen need a place to live.

i'd be okay with rolling with these young guys; seeing what gustavsson brings to the table with regular NHL minutes and shuffle the d deck in the off season using only the comcast money asset

[phlfly]

Mike? Mike Milbury, is that you?

He is only one who is make sense to get, otherwise team should be same. Weber? you are guys crazy he is out of reach and he will sign with Preds because they are playing a good hockey now. Also today on XM, one of the guys had a dinner with Pronger yesterday, so Pronger said to him he wants that media left him alone so this is reason he is done for the season, particular Tim, he is tired and he doesn't want to be next Sid, with everyday question about his health. Doctors told him to take long vacation from hockey. So I think he will be back in two months.

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

I'm happy with how the team is playing. I hate when a gm goes out and gets guys on their way out for youth. But Weber is far from his way out, and exactly what we need to compete with the Bruins. If you can't get him, then I'm fine with a wait and see attitude.

[flyercanuck]

He is only one who is make sense to get, otherwise team should be same. Weber? you are guys crazy he is out of reach and he will sign with Preds because they are playing a good hockey now. Also today on XM, one of the guys had a dinner with Pronger yesterday, so Pronger said to him he wants that media left him alone so this is reason he is done for the season, particular Tim, he is tired and he doesn't want to be next Sid, with everyday question about his health. Doctors told him to take long vacation from hockey. So I think he will be back in two months.

Weber was taken to arbitration and signed a one year. Doesn't sound to me like he's exactly enamoured with Nashville. Not saying he wants out but he's not locked in there, that's for sure.

Pronger isn't speaking to the media? What a horrible, horrible captain.

[JackStraw]

I think that given Pronger's age, that his career could possibly be over. While I would hate to see that, it might be the best thing not only for Pronger and his family but for his team.

If Pronger's cap hit comes off it gives the team a lot of room to try to acquire a stud defenseman. Given that possibility, I would seriously start calling Nashville to talk about either Suter or Weber. My preference would be Weber as he is bigger and the more physical of the two.

I hope Pronger has a speedy recovery and doesn't suffer long term effects of the injury but this is seeming like Preems all over again.

I'm pretty sure that Pronger's cap hit can't come off the books until his contract expires. Barring something in a new CBA, all the Flyers can do is put him on LTIR which allows them to spend over the cap by the amount of his contract. But there's a limit as to how much salary you can do that with, so if the do it with Pronger that seriously limits what the team can do in the future. Considering he has what, 5 more years left? that's a risk. Or they could buy him out, but then a portion of his salary (a lot I think, but not sure how much) still counts against the cap. The Flyers are really screwed with his contract.

[flyercanuck]

Buy him out and half his cap hit counts for twice the duration. LTIR is a blessing if it happens, IMO, organization-wise.

[Phillygrump]

@brelic

I'm happy with how the team is playing. I hate when a gm goes out and gets guys on their way out for youth. But Weber is far from his way out, and exactly what we need to compete with the Bruins. If you can't get him, then I'm fine with a wait and see attitude.

Imagine what Weber could do for our PP. Without Pronger last season our PP struggled immensely and I would hate to see the same thing happen this season. They need to get a guy that can QB the PP for us without Pronger there.

Obviously any of us would love to have Shea Weber on the team. I doubt it would happen, but it would be worth it if Nashville can't sign Weber and Suter and still add scoring help. I am of the mind set that the Flyers need to think big to replace Pronger (they don't always need to think big, but this time I think its necessary)

[The Hoff]

As canuck and a few others have already stated, if you have a chance to get Weber for JVR or Schenn + a pick, then you HAVE to do it. He is a franchise-caliber defenseman who is in his mid-20's. He is easily worth a quality young forward like JVR or Schenn along with the first (in fact, he would be a bargain at that price, even without a contract past this season).

However, if Weber (or a player like Suter or Yandle) is not available, I think you stay status quo with this roster. Trading JVR or Schenn for some washed-up has-been, with no heart (I'm looking at you, Gonchar and Kaberle) would be a TERRIBLE mistake.

[Flyguys03]

Carle is going to ask for way too much money this summer. Plus the flyers need a PP point expert. Weber fits that bill. Carle is sh!t on the PP, as are pretty much all the flyers d-men not named Timonen.

EDIT: Phillygrump beat me to it RE: The PP.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Flyguys03

[Phillygrump]

He's worth giving up JVR (who I hate to lose) Schenn and a 1st as long as you can re-sign him.

[aziz]

He's 37, has done everything a person can do in a hockey career and is financially secure. Why is he going to try to come back? I don't see him doing it under these circumstances.

something to keep in mind with this discussion is that pronger being permanently done has nothing to do with a desicion on his part, at least as far as LTIR goes. he can't decide to hang them up, he has to be incapable of playing. additions to the LTIR have to be approved by the league, and the player has to be re-added at the start of each season. "he doesn't want to play anymore" isn't going to cut it, he can only be LTIR'd if he really can't play.

it might be the case that he can't, but his financial security and lack of rocks left to turn aren't going to figure into it.

[AJgoal]

something to keep in mind with this discussion is that pronger being permanently done has nothing to do with a desicion on his part, at least as far as LTIR goes. he can't decide to hang them up, he has to be incapable of playing. additions to the LTIR have to be approved by the league, and the player has to be re-added at the start of each season. "he doesn't want to play anymore" isn't going to cut it, he can only be LTIR'd if he really can't play.

it might be the case that he can't, but his financial security and lack of rocks left to turn aren't going to figure into it.

Unless they (hopefully) address it in the new CBA. I'd like to see an injury exemption for the over 35 rule, especially in the case of a concussion. Maybe something like if a player is placed on LTIR for greater than 50% of one season, and is placed on LTIR to start the next season with no timetable to return, they can retire due to injury and the cap hit comes off. I said it before, but the charade that's been played with Lappy and Rathje before him, and I'm sure others around the league, is ludicrous.

[aziz]

i agree. and, as i think about it, the league may not challenge the validity of a concussed player's desicion to not expose himself to further injury. technically, the player has to be deemed actively incapable of playing, but the idea that that player is now predisposed to reoccurance may give some leeway, regardless of a "he is symptom free" diagnosis at the start of a season.

[AJgoal]

I would hope so. I still have lingering effects from a few mild ones suffered 6+ years ago. Crosby didn't take any big hit and is back out of the lineup. With how much we don't know about them, if a player decided to hang them up after suffering from severe PCS, I'd hope the league would support the player and allow him to retire cleanly.

[terp]

he can't decide to hang them up, he has to be incapable of playing.

I considered the issue you raise before I posted and I would agree with the above quote if this were anything other than a head injury. Pronger has suffered a serious head injury and while he might at some point be able to pass a bunch of tests to demonstrate that he is "fully recovered", there is enough uncertainty about the long term effects of this type of injury to allow someone to make the case that he will never be "fully recovered".

If this summer Pronger is able to pass all the tests and he wants to come back, I feel pretty sure the Flyers would accommodate him. They would probably have to. But I suspect that Pronger's personal willingness to risk further injury and perhaps permanent brain damage would play a role in any decision. If he doesn't want to risk it, and I believe there are adequate medical grounds for him to make that judgement, he can essentially decide to stay on LTIR indefinitely.

There is for sure some murkiness here but since head injuries are such a high profile issue, it would be difficult for the league to argue against the player in these circumstances. Also, while the Player's Association might have a problem with team insisting that a player with a head injury remain on LTIR, I'm not convinced the league would get involved even in this instance unless it thought the injury was completely phony.

Unfortunately, this is going to turn into a circus for the Flyers under any circumstances. It presents huge personnel problems for them until Pronger decides he is done.

[Vincent05]

http://twitter.com/TSNMarcCrawford

If I'm Paul Holmgren, I trade ASAP for Sergei Gonchar. Give them a young prospect the same age as their developing core players #MaybeSchenn

Is this guy on crack? He's having a good year so far but I wouldn't take his contract on for free let alone trade something for him.

[Howie58]

Hello:

I agree that we are dealing with a "Primeau" like situation. Sadly, Pronger may have permanent symptoms. That is sad. This mess is similar to Primeau's (and Forsberg's) in another way--roster uncertainty. Is he back? Yes...No? If so..when? And for how long? And this is a guy with a big cap hit. My gut says that quietly, Homer knows that he can't wait until next June-July to make decisions. And if he does, it means "rental" versus long-term...and how can he do long-term until they know for sure about the health status.

Best,

Howie

[aziz]

Also, while the Player's Association might have a problem with team insisting that a player with a head injury remain on LTIR, I'm not convinced the league would get involved even in this instance unless it thought the injury was completely phony.

you're right. i thought about it after i posted, and i agree the league wouldn't second guess a concussed player deciding he wasn't going to give it a go, baseline tests or no.

[AJgoal]

There is for sure some murkiness here but since head injuries are such a high profile issue, it would be difficult for the league to argue against the player in these circumstances. Also, while the Player's Association might have a problem with team insisting that a player with a head injury remain on LTIR, I'm not convinced the league would get involved even in this instance unless it thought the injury was completely phony.

Why would the NHLPA have an issue with a player remaining on LTIR? He's still getting paid, and he's not being put at risk for further injury. I would think that's exactly the kind of thing they'd be in favor of.

[aziz]

Why would the NHLPA have an issue with a player remaining on LTIR? He's still getting paid, and he's not being put at risk for further injury.

i think it'd be the "insisting" part they wouldn't like. if pronger wants to come back, but the flyers have spent the cap relief and can't afford to bring him off LTIR, the NHLPA will be pissed if the team is given the ability to set pronger aside and refuse to reactivate him.

if it's the players choice, obviously the NHLPA would be fine with it. if it is the team playing cap games, not so much.

[AJgoal]

Gotcha, makes sense.