All Time: Top 5 Goaltenders ever

[jammer2]

Just found this gem, I had no idea Plante played for the Oilers in the WHA....that one slipped by me. Didn't exactly look like a spring chicken here....ha ha..

[flyercanuck]

Oh defnitely. But it certainly inflated the look of his win/Loss ratio and GAA/Shutouts compared to other better goalies.

Sure, but at its peak, the trap certainly helped he GAA tremendously. There were games where the Dev's got an early lead, and that was it, they simply clogged the neutral zone and dumped the puck long. Those types of numbers were certainly skewed in his favor.

He's also the best puckhandling goalie going. Without Brodeur there is no 'trapezoid". You gotta give him credit there too. As well as his longevity. Heck I hate the guy for what he's done to my Flyers for two friggin decades, but I respect the hell out of him.

[ruxpin]

Sure, but at its peak, the trap certainly helped he GAA tremendously. There were games where the Dev's got an early lead, and that was it, they simply clogged the neutral zone and dumped the puck long. Those types of numbers were certainly skewed in his favor.

Yes, maybe. But here's the thing, there are quite a few teams that played with the trap, and a trap very similar to the Devils. The one thing the Devils had that the other teams didn't is the thing that made their trap so deadly: Brodeur.

Because of goaltending? No--well yes, but that's not where I'm going. I'm talking about his ability to play the puck out of the net. The trapezoid should be called the Brodeur Zone. In many cases, a team would react to the trap by dumping the puck in. Whereas against other teams this could be occasionally successful because you could beat the trapping team in a foot race back to the puck or hope for a turnover low that would help with forechecking, etc., this wasn't the case with the Debbies. You dump the puck in on the Debs and Brodeur had the puck either out or up to a teammate before the attacking team was below the faceoff dots.

So, yes, maybe the New Jersey trap helped Brodeur's numbers. But Brodeur was the final piece that made the trap so successful. And it's a skill pretty absent among any of the other goalies in the discussion.

I mean, when they start painting lines on the ice largely because of you and others that emulated you, it says something.

[JR Ewing]

I wouldn't want to give a goalie credit or blame for the system employed his team. People are constantly knocking Brodeur for the Devils trapping (like so many other teams, btw). My issue with Brodeur is that the save percentage was just never there. Great goalie, didn't make my top 5 (was 6th).

On the other side of the coin, people want to sometimes give a little bit too much credit for goalies that played under a looser defensive system. With Grant Fuhr, the point is sometimes stretched to the absurd, and people talk about the Oilers as if they didn't give a rat's ass about defense when I can assure you they did. For all of the talk of the hard job Fuhr had, it was guys like Hextall, Burke, Bannerman, Hrudey, etc, who saw a lot more rubber each game.

a] Yeah, yeah... Paul Coffey... And the other 5 guys? Most years it was guys who were very good defensively: Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg.

b] Forwards? They had two guys who were among the top vote getters for the Selke year-in and year-out: Craig MacTavish and Esa Tikkanen.

c] There is tremendous defensive benefit to always being at the other end of the ice, pushing play at the opposition. Less time in your zone, less chances at you net.

This isn't to say that the Oilers played a stifling defense. We're talking about the 80s; nobody really did that. You could see more breakaways in one game than you see in a month of games these days. But, over time, talk of how the Oilers played has taken on a life of its own.

TLDR for Fuhr: Like Brodeur, the save percentage just wasn't there.

JR

[J0e Th0rnton]

I wouldn't want to give a goalie credit or blame for the system employed his team. People are constantly knocking Brodeur for the Devils trapping (like so many other teams, btw). My issue with Brodeur is that the save percentage was just never there. Great goalie, didn't make my top 5 (was 6th).

On the other side of the coin, people want to sometimes give a little bit too much credit for goalies that played under a looser defensive system. With Grant Fuhr, the point is sometimes stretched to the absurd, and people talk about the Oilers as if they didn't give a rat's ass about defense when I can assure you they did. For all of the talk of the hard job Fuhr had, it was guys like Hextall, Burke, Bannerman, Hrudey, etc, who saw a lot more rubber each game.

a] Yeah, yeah... Paul Coffey... And the other 5 guys? Most years it was guys who were very good defensively: Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg.

b] Forwards? They had two guys who were among the top vote getters for the Selke year-in and year-out: Craig MacTavish and Esa Tikkanen.

c] There is tremendous defensive benefit to always being at the other end of the ice, pushing play at the opposition. Less time in your zone, less chances at you net.

This isn't to say that the Oilers played a stifling defense. We're talking about the 80s; nobody really did that. You could see more breakaways in one game than you see in a month of games these days. But, over time, talk of how the Oilers played has taken on a life of its own.

TLDR for Fuhr: Like Brodeur, the save percentage just wasn't there.

JR

And Kurri

With Brodeur that is usually the point I bring up when people decide to go with pure "He has the best wins + shutouts"

Yes the Oilers were not all that bad in their own end. Coffey was pretty bad, and sometimes Gretzky, but Gretzky tilted the ice the other way in a way that makes him transcend the need for 2 way play.

[jammer2]

@JR Ewing Great points on the Oilers defensive d-men. When you put the list down, I had forgotten a lot of the great d-men they had. Was the Steve Smith goal into his own net the toughest thing you endured as a Oilers fan, I can't imagine anything worse...I wasn't a fan and I sat there for minutes...just stunned.

"Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg." That is a nice list. Some of the most underrated d-men in league history right there. Well, Muni was marginal (but threw huge hits) but the others were wicked good at what they did. Like you said, it was the 80's everyone played 7-6 games it seemed. Lowe and Huddy never really got the credit they deserved....tough as nails and very good in their own zone.

[JR Ewing]

And Kurri

With Brodeur that is usually the point I bring up when people decide to go with pure "He has the best wins + shutouts"

Yes the Oilers were not all that bad in their own end. Coffey was pretty bad, and sometimes Gretzky, but Gretzky tilted the ice the other way in a way that makes him transcend the need for 2 way play.

Kurri: you're very correct, and I feel silly for not mentioning him. heh

JR

[JR Ewing]

@JR Ewing Great points on the Oilers defensive d-men. When you put the list down, I had forgotten a lot of the great d-men they had. Was the Steve Smith goal into his own net the toughest thing you endured as a Oilers fan, I can't imagine anything worse...I wasn't a fan and I sat there for minutes...just stunned.

For me, summer 2006 thru the end of this year has been tougher; watching years of big game hunting and shunting of NHL players without thought of bringing in replacements has been worse. Watching Steve Tambellini ineloquently and hapharazardly bumble his way around and mismanage nearly every step was worse. Worse than Steve Smith's own-goal. Worse than watching the Rangers and Kings pick the Oilers bones.

"Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg." That is a nice list. Some of the most underrated d-men in league history right there. Well, Muni was marginal (but threw huge hits) but the others were wicked good at what they did. Like you said, it was the 80's everyone played 7-6 games it seemed. Lowe and Huddy never really got the credit they deserved....tough as nails and very good in their own zone.

Exactly. There were some good (not great) players back there who could definitely play a good defensive game; Huddy and Lowe in particular.

JR

[radoran]

This being the sixth page, I'm gonna throw ol' Vladislav Tretiak out there for consideration (there hasn't been an "NHL" disclaimer put on here).

Best known in the states for being pulled in 1980, he has a ridiculous resume internationally as well as against NHL competition.

After wowing the world in the 1972 Summit Series (two wins over Ken Dryden), in the 1976 Super Series he held the Rangers to three and Bruins to two goals. Secured a 3-3 tie against (future Cup winner) Montreal despite being outshot 38-13.

And lost to the (three-time Cup Finalist) Flyers.

If we're talking "best ever" he should be in the discussion and I'd bet most of the guys we're talking about would agree.

[J0e Th0rnton]

This being the sixth page, I'm gonna throw ol' Vladislav Tretiak out there for consideration (there hasn't been an "NHL" disclaimer put on here).

Best known in the states for being pulled in 1980, he has a ridiculous resume internationally as well as against NHL competition.

After wowing the world in the 1972 Summit Series (two wins over Ken Dryden), in the 1976 Super Series he held the Rangers to three and Bruins to two goals. Secured a 3-3 tie against (future Cup winner) Montreal despite being outshot 38-13.

And lost to the (three-time Cup Finalist) Flyers.

If we're talking "best ever" he should be in the discussion and I'd bet most of the guys we're talking about would agree.

I threw his name up too

The only person I have ever seen trash Tretiak's goaltending is Phil Esposito.

I heard things about a goaltender for Czechoslovakia who outdueled the Soviets and Tretiak for gold twice in the 70's on a vastly inferior team. Anyone got a name for him?

[radoran]

I threw his name up too

Sorry I missed it!

[JR Ewing]

This being the sixth page, I'm gonna throw ol' Vladislav Tretiak out there for consideration (there hasn't been an "NHL" disclaimer put on here).

Best known in the states for being pulled in 1980, he has a ridiculous resume internationally as well as against NHL competition.

After wowing the world in the 1972 Summit Series (two wins over Ken Dryden), in the 1976 Super Series he held the Rangers to three and Bruins to two goals. Secured a 3-3 tie against (future Cup winner) Montreal despite being outshot 38-13.

And lost to the (three-time Cup Finalist) Flyers.

If we're talking "best ever" he should be in the discussion and I'd bet most of the guys we're talking about would agree.

I think you're absolutely spot-on, but I just have never been able to settle on what to do with him; where to put him. In best-on-best tournaments, he carried an astonishing standard of play. No doubt of that at all. The problem is pretty much the same as attempting to rank ***** Leaguers in with Major Leaguers.

What's Josh Gibson's place in baseball history? I have no doubt he's one of the best hitters ever. He's probably the best right handed power hitter ever, and probably the best catcher ever. But how do I know for sure where to rank him in comparison to Berra, Bench, Campanella and Cochrane?

How do we rank Buck Leonard against Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx?

How do we rank Satchel Paige against Walter Johnson?

You get the idea.

And here's the thing: I agree 100% with you. I bet he's one of the top 5 goaltenders in the history of the game; he may even be the best ever. He was named to the 1st All-Star team in the Soviet League every year from 1971 to 1984. He was MVP 5 times. Different league, of course, but it doesn't seem to me like it really should carry less weight than a pre-expansion NHL player who was also in a small league drawing from a pool of one country.

But I just don't know where to place him in comparison the NHL players, so he always ends up in his own category with me, for the guys lost to global politics and other assorted bits of BS.

JR

[jammer2]

@J0e Th0rnton @J0e Th0rnton I had to google it, but I think you're talking about Juri Holecek?

@radoran I would tend to agree, it would be a mistake to not at least mention Tretiak in this thread. Problem being, besides the few tourny's (ie Canada Cup, Olympic etc) and all star type things (NHL vs Russia) there is a not a whole lot of common denominators to help with comparisons. From what I recall, he had an amazing skill set and was worthy of all the praise he received.....just a whole to more to work with in terms of NHL goalies.

[radoran]

@J0e Th0rnton @J0e Th0rnton I had to google it, but I think you're talking about Juri Holecek?

@radoran I would tend to agree, it would be a mistake to not at least mention Tretiak in this thread. Problem being, besides the few tourny's (ie Canada Cup, Olympic etc) and all star type things (NHL vs Russia) there is a not a whole lot of common denominators to help with comparisons. From what I recall, he had an amazing skill set and was worthy of all the praise he received.....just a whole to more to work with in terms of NHL goalies.

Also retired at 32 so his career length is a little shorter (he did start "professionally" around 19).

Still, I think about the 12 years that he effectively played as the #1 for the Soviets against any and all competition - and not only looked competent, but did things like put up a 35-save effort to preserve a tie against the future Stanley Cup champions.

I don't know that the Miracle happens if the Soviet coach doesn't completely overreact in 1980 (blasphemy, to an extent, by Myshkin was no Tretiak). Does Tretiak give up the Eruzione goal? Hmmm...

I think when the Red Wings became the Red Army team (to an extent) they showed that the competition at the top level amongst Soviet skaters were on a comparable level to the West.

IMO, Tretiak deserves to be on the list higher than a lot of guys with extensive NHL pedigrees.

[flyercanuck]

Tretiak deserves mention for sure. He's the one Russian player ever who gets standing ovations across Canada any time he shows his face. And he earned every bit of that respect.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Tretiak deserves mention for sure. He's the one Russian player ever who gets standing ovations across Canada any time he shows his face. And he earned every bit of that respect.

I dunno. Kharlamov also got the standing O when he was alive

[JackStraw]

I dunno. Kharlamov also got the standing O when he was alive

My recollection of those days (the '70s) is that a lot of people believed Kharlamov was the 2nd best player in the world, after Orr. And I think most people considered Tretiak to be the best goalie in the world at that time.

One comment about Dryden- he played on some incredible teams, true. But the first Cup they won with him in '71 was an upset. That team was not particularly "stacked", they were heavy underdogs against the Bruins and the Hawks were probably favored in the finals as well. Dryden almost single handedly beat the Bruins, Phil Esposito famously called him a "giraffe" because he was so big and his arms and legs seemed to be everywhere.

[blocker]

Tikhonov's replacing Tretiak in favor of Myshkin is one of hockey's mysteries. There are speculations by the boatload, but I guess only Tikhonov knows the real answer.

"My recollection of those days (the '70s) is that a lot of people believed Kharlamov was the 2nd best player in the world, after Orr"

Me too, Jack.

Funny thing is that Tikhonov once said that Bob Gainey was the best.

[NRH]

If we base it off their peaks, hextall had a magical 1 hit wonder, getting praise from Gretzky at the time.

Not many players win MVP and lose.

[JackStraw]

Funny thing is that Tikhonov once said that Bob Gainey was the best.

That's a new one to me. I remember Gainey being an excellent defensive forward, and a real pita for the Flyers, but never heard anyone call him the best player in the world.

[flyercanuck]

If we base it off their peaks, hextall had a magical 1 hit wonder, getting praise from Gretzky at the time.

Not many players win MVP and lose.

You're right. And Flyers have done it twice (Leach)

[JR Ewing]

That's a new one to me. I remember Gainey being an excellent defensive forward, and a real pita for the Flyers, but never heard anyone call him the best player in the world.

Yeah. In 1981, Tikhonov said "I consider Gainey the world's best all-around player."

Take from that what you will, but I definitely don't agree with him.

JR

[flyercanuck]

That's a new one to me. I remember Gainey being an excellent defensive forward, and a real pita for the Flyers, but never heard anyone call him the best player in the world.

The Russian coach did call Gainey the best. And probably helped give guys like Gainey who played the entire rink equally, some recognition. The Selke was awarded for it's first time to Gainey not long after,

[jammer2]

I agree fc, it was kinda groundbreaking at the time when Tikhonov heaped all the praise on Gainey. Don't agree he was the best in the world at the time, but he was certainly not appreciated by North Americans as to what he brought to each and every game. It was special to see one of the great minds of hockey bestowing some much deserved recognition on the best 2 way player in the league, maybe ever. Best 2 way player ever IMHO was Stevie Y under Bowman, after the lightbulb went on and he gave up some offense (which was still outstanding) to be a all round ace. He was still potting 50 goals and 100 pt seasons, but backchecked like a man possessed. That's when the Wings finally started to win the Cups, and it was not a coincidence.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I agree fc, it was kinda groundbreaking at the time when Tikhonov heaped all the praise on Gainey. Don't agree he was the best in the world at the time, but he was certainly not appreciated by North Americans as to what he brought to each and every game. It was special to see one of the great minds of hockey bestowing some much deserved recognition on the best 2 way player in the league, maybe ever. Best 2 way player ever IMHO was Stevie Y under Bowman, after the lightbulb went on and he gave up some offense (which was still outstanding) to be a all round ace. He was still potting 50 goals and 100 pt seasons, but backchecked like a man possessed. That's when the Wings finally started to win the Cups, and it was not a coincidence.

I dunno. Sergei Fedorov defensively, was better and when he actually put in the effort in the regular season, could put up the points(Fedorov was a bit lazy in the RS though). Bryan Trottier did not have to give up his higher end offense to be one of the top defensive centers in the league. And, well, Bobby Clarke often gets mentioned as the best two way forward as well.

Yzerman is definitely up there. His 95-96 season under Bowman was amazing. 36 goals and 95 points and terrific two way hockey. 3rd for the Selke. Fedorov won it lol. Hell, that was a great season for all the red wings. Konstantinov, Lidstrom and Coffey all were 4th, 5th and 6th for the Norris. The team had friggin 131 points and the 2nd best PP in the league, #1 PK in the league