Dreger Report: Some NHL GMs say it's time to lose fighting

[hf101]

Some say Fighting needs to stay because the players want it, others say the fans want it.

 

Here is what some GM's have to say.
 

 

"Yes, I believe a player should get a game misconduct for fighting," Yzerman told The Dreger Report. "We penalize and suspend players for making contact with the head while checking, in an effort to reduce head injuries, yet we still allow fighting.

 

Shero believes that the NHL has a responsibility to consider a ban on fighting and not just simply raise the discussion when an isolated incident happens.

"It won't happen overnight, but we need to be leaders, not followers in this area," he explained. "I respect other GMs and their views, but we need to look at this and not just when an incident like last night (Parros) happens."

 

 When asked if the league and players should stop trying to make fighting safer and focus on banning fighting in general instead, Carolina Hurricanes GM Jim Rutherford said, "We've got to get rid of fighting, it has to go."

Rutherford said he would support an open and full discussion on additional penalties such as a game misconduct for fighting - with a significant suspension for any player, for example, who fights multiple times in a season.

 

 

source

 

Personally I think fighting more than one time in a game, removing ones' helmet, will receive a game misconduct penalty possibly as early as next season.  It is the end of the enforcer folks.

[ruxpin]

I suppose it has to be, but honestly, they are slowly taking away the reasons I became a hockey fan.  And the other stuff they are adding to it (shootout, hybrid icing, etc) are making me less of one.

 

Seriously, I was never really a fan of the ice capades.

[JR Ewing]

If the NHL wants to get serious about reducing the number of head injuries, then they probably don't have much choice but to make fighting a heavily penalized rarity.

 

Due to scientific study, some numbers are rolling in, and we can stop pretending that it's all Raffi Torres and Matt Cooke's fault now. The problem is much larger than a few isolated incidents. The study notes that the concussions aren't really a result of hits which the NHL has banned. What difference can fines and suspensions make if so few of the concussions are from non-suspendable hits? I think the league has some tough questions to ask themselves if player safety is an honest concern to them. It should be.

 

-Blind-side hits only account for 4% of the concussions. Targeting these hits is fine, but it's obvious overkill considering they're not responsible for many of the injuries. Fights are clearly a bigger cause of the problem.

-If the league were to reduce the number of hits in general, it could probably go some way towards addressing the problem. Fewer hits, fewer collisions, fewer instances for head injuries. We've all seen how the hitting has changed in the last 20 years where players, wearing armour my Baldur's Gate characters would be jealous of, come flying in at full speed and deck opposing players.

-So what caused the largest percentage (28%) of concussions? Fights, and the league needs to really look and see if it's worth having around as something which is so accepted. I like a good fight, too, but it's a bit of a disgrace to see the effects it had on a guy like Derek Boogaard who, in his team physical just before he died, couldn't even think of a word which began with the letter 'r'.

-I don't think that removing or greatly reducing the number of fights makes the NHL Ice Capades or anything like that. The NFL doesn't feature fights, and not too many people are calling it flag football or questioning the masculinity of the players.

-I suspect that if the fights weren't there, it wouldn't make much of a difference for viewership or attendance either way. I don't think there's too many people who would say "Oh, they're not fighting? NOW I'll watch", and if you watch mainly for the fighting, maybe you can find a stream of the Quebec Senior League or the ECHL. They'll have what you're looking for.

 

JR

[ruxpin]

-I don't think that removing or greatly reducing the number of fights makes the NHL Ice Capades or anything like that. The NFL doesn't feature fights, and not too many people are calling it flag football or questioning the masculinity of the players.

 

I do think the NFL is slowly becoming flag football.  I'm not questioning the masculinity of the players in either sport, but hockey in particular has less and less of the tension and roughness that drew me to it in the 70s.

 

Despite throwing around the ice capades line, I really do think it's something they have to do.   We just saw a huge payout from the NFL.  Yes, it could have been a lot more, but it's still a lot.   It's a very real issue and it needs very real solutions.   And I do think  eliminating fighting will go a long way to--at the very least--giving the NHL the ability to say in court, "see, this was important.  We did x, y, and z."

 

It's not like I'm going to boycott or anything, but unlike my first 30 or so years as a fan, if I watch it I watch it; if I don't, it's not a travesty.  I no longer plan my schedule around games and now almost have to have the chat room open just to keep it interesting for 60 minutes.

 

I'm not sure what that says about me (age?).   It's not just the hitting, etc., but it is keeping my attention less and less.   As they keep altering it from the game I grew up with and as it looks less and less like that sport--for reasons both of necessity and of poor choices (shootout)--the less I'm feeling engaged.

[Habsterix]

Did you know that it is scientifically proven that about 0.004% of all fights (3 out of 710) result in concussions (source)? So let me ask you this: Is removing fighting from the game going to reduce the number of head injuries?

 

This is once again the case of a few who are taking advantage of some headlines to push their agenda for removing fighting in hockey. Still, the fact remains that well over 90% of all concussions are due to body contacts, body checks. It is also a fact that close to 100% of all head injuries are the results of body checks, high sticks and/or pucks. Perhaps, if player-safety is the true agenda here, the league should be looking into removing body checking from hockey, and go with softer sticks and a softer puck?

 

Don't get fooled by people and their misleading agenda. Food for thoughts...

Edited October 2, 2013 by Habsterix

[JR Ewing]

Did you know that it is scientifically proven that about 0.004% of all fights (3 out of 710) result in concussions (source)? So let me ask you this: Is removing fighting from the game going to reduce the number of head injuries?

 

This is once again the case of a few who are taking advantage of some headlines to push their agenda for removing fighting in hockey. Still, the fact remains that well over 90% of all concussions are due to body contacts, body checks. It is also a fact that close to 100% of all head injuries are the results of body checks, high sticks and/or pucks. Perhaps, if player-safety is the true agenda here, the league should be looking into removing body checking from hockey, and go with softer sticks and a softer puck?

 

Don't get fooled by people and their misleading agenda. Food for thoughts...

 

 

Well, time for dueling experts, I suppose.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/study-finds-recent-rule-changes-didnt-reduce-rates-of-concussions-in-nhl/article13291450/?cmpid=rss1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter%C2%A0

 

In the case of this study, they gathered their data from NHL and OHL teams and media reports. They found that the highest group of head injuries came from the fights. I have to be honest and admit that I don't find the the doctors (educated though they are) watching youtube videos of hockey fights to be scientific proof of anything.

 

But, whatever... I'm not here to convince you or anybody else. I like a good fight, too, and it's not that I *want* it driven from the game, but see the day coming that the league won't have much choice but to greatly reduce the number of fights that happen.

 

JR

Edited October 2, 2013 by JR Ewing

[JR Ewing]

I do think the NFL is slowly becoming flag football.  I'm not questioning the masculinity of the players in either sport, but hockey in particular has less and less of the tension and roughness that drew me to it in the 70s.

Sorry, I don't mean to imply what you think of the players. I combined a direct response to something you said with things I've heard other people say. Definitely not trying to put words in your moouth.

 

Despite throwing around the ice capades line, I really do think it's something they have to do.   We just saw a huge payout from the NFL.  Yes, it could have been a lot more, but it's still a lot.   It's a very real issue and it needs very real solutions.   And I do think  eliminating fighting will go a long way to--at the very least--giving the NHL the ability to say in court, "see, this was important.  We did x, y, and z."

And this is my exact point. It's not that I hate fighting or anything like that. I'm a guy who's been on his feet cheering. I've enjoyed seeing my guy beat down the other guy. All of that. I just think the day is coming when the league will have to ban/reduce the fights to legally protect themselves in the same way that the NFL had to address headshots or even how the WWE had to ban certain dangerous moves in their ring. The data is in, and head injuries are exceptionally dangerous.

 

JR

[ruxpin]

@JR Ewing

 

Yeah, sounds like we're saying/thinking very similar things.

 

I know they have to do it.  I'm just mourning the loss of a part of the game I enjoyed.  

 

You know what, though?   Just on a personal level, it's kind of weird for me that I'm mourning it.   I don't watch wrestling or boxing or MMA or any of that.   But from very young I liked when my mother and grandmother would get all excited because the Bullie were "throwing their mittens on the ice.  Come quick!"   (Honest to God, they called them "mittens.")    I think maybe I just accidentally diagnosed my enjoyment of the fighting in the NHL.  Don't know.

 

I think maybe my dislike of hybrid icing and the ever lessening role of fighting in hockey may also have something to do with my dislike of circus high wire or acrobatic performers with nets and/or zip lines.  There's no real danger.   Eh, they do it that's nice, but if they screw up, no big deal.  No tension or drama.   It doesn't matter how much skill the actual act itself shows/takes.  So, I guess the same with hockey.   You take out the fighting (which we seem to agree they have to) and some of the more violent hits, it takes out some of the tension and drama (for me--this may not be an intrinsic thing, just talking about personal perception here). 

 

Also, it seems to me that if you take out the fighting you're going to have a bunch of puss players taking advantage of the loss of that possibility.  In anticipation of someone else arguing this point, there is ample evidence in other places to support this:    

 

They started penalizing hits from behind, so immediately you had puss players bending over directly in front of the boards with their heads nearly perpendicular to them with a sign on their ass saying "ha ha you can't tap this."  You really didn't have that previously.  Players were smart enough to not put themselves in that position.  

 

They insert a litany of criteria that makes an open ice hit nearly impossible to do without penalty.  Almost immediately you have a host of puss players skating with their head down stroking themselves as they skate up ice.   "Oh look at me and my fancy puck and stick skills.  La la la, what a nice day."   ICE CAPADES.     No danger of being hit or stopped and if they are they'll whine about the "dirty" hit while the other guy actually playing hockey and not acting like some "High School Musical on Ice" character gets suspended for a few games.

 

There are other examples,  3rd man in, leaving the bench, last 5 minutes, etc. etc.   In each case, the rule itself and the reason for it was perfectly acceptable and understandable but immediately was taken advantage of by ice capade actors masquerading as hockey players.   Just waiting to see how the Disney guys take advantage of absolutely no fighting.  Because they will.

 

All that said, I do ultimately agree that the time has come.  

[TretiakCCCP20]

As if the NHL is so popular it could afford to ban fighting...That's one of the few aspects of the game that really brings the fans in. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not it sells hockey to people. As long as it keeps the fans coming and keeps people interested then it should stay part of the game. Just watch this will be the next thing Bettman decides to tamper with...

[Commander Clueless]

If they ban fighting, half of the Leafs' roster will be useless! Er..wait...

 

 

Anyway, I don't think it will come to losing fighting. While I'm not 100% buying into the Don Cherrys of the world who claim it is of paramount importance, it's a part of the game....although technically it is already illegal - I mean it gives you a major penalty.

[Ilya Zhitomirskiy]

Personally, fighting is not the reason why I watch hockey. I watch hockey for the goals and passing, and skill players. Outlawing fighting might be a good change, but it would radically alter the culture of the game, especially the unwritten rules. For instance, a cheap shot or unwarranted contact with the goalie will lead to a fight from the opposition's enforcer, but there would probably be a different means of retaliation if fighting was banned. Currently, fighting is punished by a major penalty, but this will not be enough to keep enforcers out. I would rather have fewer people play hockey, even if this means excluding players like Tiger Williams and Bob Probert who could score as well as fight. The European players tend to fight less, but no one calls them chicken or sissy the way they were called in the 1970s. The Europeans in the NHL play a less physical, more finesse-oriented style, but can hit if needed, so the NHL might absorb more European players than there are currently. And if the NHL changes, then the OHL and other junior leagues will change the way they enforce fighting. This will be a radical change, but there will have to be some alternative system to deal with cheap shots. Now, the players punish cheap-shooters, but maybe add cheap-shotting as a category of diving as a penalty?

[DaGreatGazoo]

I think fighting will not be "outlawed", as in, it won't be specifically banned in the rule book.   Too many fans, purists, old schoolers would revolt.  Rather, they will legislate it out of the game by making it too costly to do on a regular basis.  Game misconduct(s), suspensions, coaches suspended etc....

 

The league is already well down that path with the grandfathered visor law/fighting with a visor/instigation with a visor stuff.  

[flyercanuck]

Yzerman wants fighting out of hockey?

 

 Funny, I don't recall him having that opinion when he was playing and Joey Kocur and Bob Probert would punch the living hell out of anyone who went near him.

 

 If they want to take pre-arranged fighting of two heavyweights who can't play hockey out, I'm all for it. But the fights that occur like the Schenn/Lupul one the other night are part of the game. And those type of fights rarely result in injury because most players that actually can play aren't 6'5" 250 lb punching machines.

[JR Ewing]

Yzerman wants fighting out of hockey?

 

 Funny, I don't recall him having that opinion when he was playing and Joey Kocur and Bob Probert would punch the living hell out of anyone who went near him.

 

 If they want to take pre-arranged fighting of two heavyweights who can't play hockey out, I'm all for it. But the fights that occur like the Schenn/Lupul one the other night are part of the game. And those type of fights rarely result in injury because most players that actually can play aren't 6'5" 250 lb punching machines.

Agreed on both. It's easy for Yzerman to say it now, but he did benefit from Probert. At least Probert could actually play hockey. I don't know too many people who care for the pre-staged "you wanna go?" fights between two goons. They do absolutely nothing to curb dirty plays or "police" the game.

The way I see it, the league could do a few things to make that type of player disappear from the game:

-Adopt the OHL rule which targets serial fighters. This would

-Hand out a game misconduct after two fights. I completely disagree with a game misconduct after one fight because I could easily see teams trying to target star players this way, to remove them from the game.

-The league could drop the numbers of players dressed for a game from 20 to 19, which would effectively drop the Steve MacIntyres of this world off the NHL map.

JR

[B21]

The "fighting" in hockey today is nothing like it once was and rarely serves the same purpose as what fighting was intended to do.  So if banning the staged WWE nonsense that 9 out of every 10 fights really are helps to curb concussions - good. Make it happen.

 

Purists may revolt but if they are true "purists" then they should already be revolting because of what fighting in the NHL has evolved to become.

 

Fans of all levels of interest (casual to die hard) will still watch and still show up if fighting goes away regardless of what they may say. "Fighting" is really an extra...you go to see the game and root for you team and if your unskilled good kicks the snot out of the other team's unskilled goon for no reason other than the fact that they are both unskilled goons - great. If not, it don't see how that takes away from the overall game experience.

[mojo1917]

i've never been a fan of the true heavyweight fighters as an adult.  

If fighting were to go back to the " hey watch your stick in the corners asshole or i'll find a place for it" where players were allowed to police themselves instead of having the colton orr's making sure everything is on the up and up...i'd be fine with it, there would be less of it and that would be okay with me.  

 

dudes going fast , in a confined space , allowed to hit each other while they're carrying sticks, may need an outlet to resolve their differences occasionally  i get that, but the current model is not effective , or really that entertaining.  I took no pleasure in seeing the highlights of george parros getting a concussion. none. 

he and Orr went once before in the same contest... there's no place for that type of fighting in the game.

i think @JR Ewing has a good idea there.

[iban3z]

I can't believe what I'm reading. So many Hockey fans in favor of banning fighting. It's part of the game! I think with all the rules, they make fighting an obstacle, but to ban it all together. I'm not in favor of it. I enjoy the fighting. I think it should come about when it's fully necessary though, and not just two people fighting for the sake of fighting. All fights should be warranted. 

[jammer2]

I can't believe what I'm reading. So many Hockey fans in favor of banning fighting. It's part of the game! I think with all the rules, they make fighting an obstacle, but to ban it all together. I'm not in favor of it. I enjoy the fighting. I think it should come about when it's fully necessary though, and not just two people fighting for the sake of fighting. All fights should be warranted. 

 

 

 Welcome, I think most old timer purists feel the same way. Fighting is part of the game, but the staged fights are getting old and tired. I love spontaneous fights, brought on my frustration or passion....this staged stuff is garbage.

[JR Ewing]

I can't believe what I'm reading. So many Hockey fans in favor of banning fighting. It's part of the game! I think with all the rules, they make fighting an obstacle, but to ban it all together. I'm not in favor of it. I enjoy the fighting. I think it should come about when it's fully necessary though, and not just two people fighting for the sake of fighting. All fights should be warranted. 

 

Actually, what I've come away with, in this thread, is people saying that they see the league as having little alternative but to reduce the number of fights, and/or eliminate the hired goon who can't even play hockey. Not a lot of "I hate fighting and I want it gone!"

 

Devil's advocate time: "it's part of the game" isn't really much of a good reason to keep anything around. Hitting opposing players over the head with sticks used to be part of the game. A damned big part, as a matter of fact. Bench clearing brawls used to be a part of the game. Jumping star players and beating them to a pulp used to be big part of the game. Less than a generation ago, hitting a guy square in the head was called a clean hit and part of the game. They're not a part of the game any longer, because enough people decided that it shouldn't be that way, that it didn't match their view of what the sport should represent.

 

When determining if something should stick around, we need a reason other than its sheer existence to determine if it should continue to exist.

 

JR

Edited October 5, 2013 by JR Ewing

[bunnyman]

I am not a fan of the pre-staged fights. Those are silly. But trying to ban fights in retaliation for cheap shots is ridiculous.

I had no problem dropping the gloves when a teammate was dropped by a cheap hit or after the puck was clearly off of my line mate's stick. If I was dropped by a blindside hit, you had better believe the next shift I play ended with five for fighting. I wasn't terribly big. But I would say my concussions were from cheap hits. Of course some of them were deserved- being the small-ish pest trying to draw penalties tends to get a few cheap shots in retaliation.

The heavy-weight style fighting is ruining the intensity of a good game. The enforcers just negate each other rather than do what they're supposed to do: protect their teammates.

Now that I am lacing up the skates again, I have no intention of playing like I used to. First off, I can't skate like I used to. Second, my days of getting into the NHL are long past. Thirdly, I have a day job to return to after the games.

I don't watch for the fights, but if they get rid of fighting, I can't say that NHL hockey is a must-see for me.