Schenn vs Wilson

[brelic]

Kerry Fraser's take:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=439308

Hi Kerry,

During Tuesday night's Pens/Caps game, Tom Wilson got a five-minute penalty for charging Brayden Schenn. Nicklas Grossmann then turned and started a fight with Wilson. Despite not having to travel any distance, he clearly threw the first punch, had the gloves off first and fought him as 'retribution' for a previous incident in the game or season, all of which would be grounds for an instigator penalty. Yet none was given.

Why wasn't there one given?

Thanks,

Kyle Reid

---

What is your take on the Wilson hit on Schenn from Washington vs. Philadelphia game? Some say 100 per cent clean hit and others say it's a suspension!

Thanks for reading!

Bob Haynes

Kyle and Bob:

Following the devastating and violent hit that Tom Wilson delivered on Brayden Schenn it was actually Wilson that dropped his gloves first to be at the ready in anticipation of the Flyers cavalry that was guaranteed to charge.

Nicklas Grossmann moved toward the Caps player with gloves and stick in hand. Wilson's gloves hit the ice. Even when the two players locked on Grossmann's gloves were still evident on his hands as Wilson attempted to throw some punches from tight quarters. In spite of the fact that Grossmann approached Wilson following the hit (minimal distance travelled) - but more based on Wilson's quick response mentioned above - the Referee appropriately deemed an instigator penalty was not warranted.

Bob, this was a 100 per cent illegal hit. Tom Wilson approached Brayden Schenn with excessive speed from a considerable distance which results in a charging violation (Rule 42.1 - Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance travelled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner). Even though Schenn took a peek and simultaneously made a slight turn to avoid the contact, Wilson actually accelerated in the last eight-to-10 feet, rendering the Flyer player virtually defenceless. The accelerated speed and extra finish that Wilson exerted through the hit caused Schenn to crash violently into the end boards with significant impact to Schenn's head.

A boarding violation also occurred on this play (Rule 41.1 - A boarding penalty shall be imposed on any player who checks or pushes a defenseless opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to hit or impact the boards violently or dangerously. The severity of the penalty, based on the impact with the boards, shall be at the discretion of the Referee).

I would hope every referee in the league would exercise their most responsible discretion and deem Schenn's impact with the boards as violent and excessive resulting in a major and game misconduct being assessed on this play.

Potential suspension - who knows? Rule 41 goes on to say that, "The onus is on the player applying the check to ensure his opponent is not in a defenceless position and if so, he must avoid or minimize contact."

Tom Wilson was committed beyond just making the hit, as proven by the acceleration and finish factor on the play. There was no consideration given to avoid Schenn or to slow down and minimize contact. It was full speed ahead!

Let me highlight the 'escape clause' in the rule when consideration is given to whether a suspension is warranted on dangerous hits such as this. From Rule 41.1, "However, in the determining whether such contact could have been avoided, the circumstances of the check, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the check or whether the check was unavoidable can be considered."

Schenn snuck at the peak an instant before impact and recognized a missile in the form of Tom Wilson was hunting him down. This caused Schenn to veer slightly or attempt to turn as an avoidance tactic. The Player Safety Committee will give strong consideration to this element of the play in defense of Tom Wilson's actions.

At least in this case, the ambiguity written into rule places considerable and undue responsibility on the victim of such a violent hit. Given Schenn's location from the boards, the extended distance Tom Wilson travelled and the speed, velocity and force generated by this hit I believe a similar outcome would have occurred regardless of Brayden Schenn's minimal attempt to avoid contact.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I think Fraser's analysis is helpful and pretty clear.  I would agree with it.  I also hope the Flyers have a long memory and Wilson gets his own dose of punishment from the team on the ice as well as whatever the League doles out.  Dress Rosehill, let Rinaldo go, or even unleash Crazy Downie on the dude if his head has recovered enough from his last fight.

[JackStraw]

Yes, but unfortunately the "rulebook" is frequently more "guidelinebook" than "rulebook" in the NHL.

 

Completely agree with that. I've felt for a long time now that the league should tighten up when it comes to calling charging penalties. But they are trying to promote the violence aspect of the sport (just like the NFL has done) and it's tough to have it both ways.

 

PS: Excellent James Neal shout-out. The guy is becoming the gold standard for excusing the inexcusable, "his head got in the way of my knee. I guess I should have moved my knee."

Edited December 18, 2013 by JackStraw

[DaGreatGazoo]

I've stayed out of this for most of the day, but I'm not really sure how anyone can argue that was not a charging penalty.  Yes, Schenn turned, and that's what resulted in him hitting the boards.  Even if he doesn't turn, it's still charging.  For God's sake, what if Rinaldo, Matt Cooke, or any other "repeat offender" makes that hit??  We are talking 5-10 games.  Easily.  So, why does a guy with no history make the hit less egregious???   To me, that's the biggest hypocrisy in hockey.  A bad hit, is a bad hit..regardless of who throws it. 

 

I don't think it's a dirty hit, as I classify them(like a crosscheck from 2 feet away, or a blantant head shot), but it's a reckless hit, and the EXACT type of hit the league continues to discourage.  He'll get a few games simple for that reason.    

[aziz]

@DaGreatGazoo

 

i don't think anyone was saying it wasn't charging.  i said, "taking strides into a player is intent to hit really hard.  also charging, i grant you."

 

(technically, though, anything is charging.  the rule definition is any check that is violent due to distance traveled.  doesn't say how much, just distance.  so any hit where the hitting player was not standing right next to his target to begin with is a charge, if the ref decides it was "violent".)

[radoran]

Here's a good Kerry Fraser blog from TSN in 2011 on charging and the "interpretation"

 

As I read it the "strides" part was taken out to allow more flexibility on the part of the ref to call the penalty.

Edited December 18, 2013 by radoran
to include the !%#&# link

[JackStraw]

Here's a good Kerry Fraser blog from TSN in 2011 on charging and the "interpretation"

 

Where?

Edited December 18, 2013 by JackStraw

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

 

LOL! I was going to ask the same thing.

[radoran]

Where?

 

@JackStraw

 

LOL! I was going to ask the same thing.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=365674

 

Apparently didn't paste when I thought it did

[JackStraw]

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=365674

 

Apparently didn't paste when I thought it did

 

Of course it didn't...

[flyercanuck]

@radoran@JackStraw

 

Stupit compooders

[Jmdodgesrt4]

It's a charge by the means of the placement of schenn to the boards. Also he took two strides after coasting for a bit into the zone once he saw schenn . These are the hits the nhl is trying to remove from the game. And it's a hit that started the end of my playing career.

[jammer2]

@hf101  Nice memory with the earlier fight, it puts the whole thing into a different context and gives some history to their individual rivalries. I got to see Wilson a lot in the OHL, he played for Plymouth, a direct division rival of the Spits. The kid is a powerhouse of a fighter. He throws to hurt you. Interesting part about Wilson is he is a better than average skater...a real nice combo of skill and physicality. He does have nice hands, but don't really know how much he will score in the NHL. The fact he skates so well sets him apart from other similar players, so the Caps got a nice one here.

[radoran]

@hf101  Nice memory with the earlier fight, it puts the whole thing into a different context and gives some history to their individual rivalries. I got to see Wilson a lot in the OHL, he played for Plymouth, a direct division rival of the Spits. The kid is a powerhouse of a fighter. He throws to hurt you. Interesting part about Wilson is he is a better than average skater...a real nice combo of skill and physicality. He does have nice hands, but don't really know how much he will score in the NHL. The fact he skates so well sets him apart from other similar players, so the Caps got a nice one here.

 

And he absolutely cost his team the game with that hit.

 

Better stop being stuck on stupid.

[jammer2]

And he absolutely cost his team the game with that hit.

 

Better stop being stuck on stupid.

 

 Agreed, I will chalk it up to rookie buffoonery, but you'd like to see him learn his lesson and not repeat this crap.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Randy Jones. This better be 6 games.

Behold Randy!!

Wilson has a phone hearing. Maximum of 5 games. I think he will only get 2 games. This is Wilson's first offense and Schenn does not have a concussion.

[brelic]

From Frank S

Schenn underwent X-rays to check his neck and back for fractures. He did not undergo a concussion baseline test, despite the obvious head trauma. He said that's because he did not feel any symptoms once he made it to the locker room.

"I felt fine as soon as I got off the ice," Schenn said. "I don't have any symptoms or anything like that. I didn't see stars. I didn't feel slow. I didn't have any headaches.

"I've had concussions before; I know what they're like. I had it a month at a time [in December 2011]. I didn't have any symptoms."

Schenn did not appear to lose consciousness for any length of time following the hit. He still could have suffered a concussion on the play, which makes it surprising the Flyers did not at least mandate a baseline test. According to online medical encyclopedias, amnesia (memory loss) is one of the primary determinants of a concussion.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20131219_Schenn_can_t_recall_memorable_hit__grateful_he_was_only_slightly_hurt.html#0cIAo4z9ALPwc2aE.99

Anyone else feel it's irresponsible for the Flyers staff to not even do the baseline test????? I mean, if you want to know why lawsuits are allowed to proceed, this is a perfect example.

"Well, I know he had just been whacked in the head, and fell to the ice three times in total confusion trying to get to the bench - BUT - the player told me he was fine, so I didn't test him."

I don't know... sounds really reckless with a young guy's well-being.

[radoran]

Anyone else feel it's irresponsible for the Flyers staff to not even do the baseline test????? I mean, if you want to know why lawsuits are allowed to proceed, this is a perfect example.

"Well, I know he had just been whacked in the head, and fell to the ice three times in total confusion trying to get to the bench - BUT - the player told me he was fine, so I didn't test him."

I don't know... sounds really reckless with a young guy's well-being.

 

I completely agree. "Irresponsible" is one word and another you point out is "actionable."

 

One would think that, for one, Ian LaPerriere would certainly recommend he get a baseline...

[fanaticV3.0]

I've stayed out of this for most of the day, but I'm not really sure how anyone can argue that was not a charging penalty.  Yes, Schenn turned, and that's what resulted in him hitting the boards.  Even if he doesn't turn, it's still charging.  For God's sake, what if Rinaldo, Matt Cooke, or any other "repeat offender" makes that hit??  We are talking 5-10 games.  Easily.  So, why does a guy with no history make the hit less egregious???   To me, that's the biggest hypocrisy in hockey.  A bad hit, is a bad hit..regardless of who throws it. 

 

I don't think it's a dirty hit, as I classify them(like a crosscheck from 2 feet away, or a blantant head shot), but it's a reckless hit, and the EXACT type of hit the league continues to discourage.  He'll get a few games simple for that reason.    

 

I think everyone on this thread agreed it was a penalty. The disagreement came over Wilson's intent and how much of the blame is on Schenn.

 

It's a penalty and I don't have a problem with treating it that way, but the only reason it is being discussed more and being treated differently than any other penalty during that same game is because Schenn made the ill-advised decision to turn towards the boards.

[brelic]

One would think that, for one, Ian LaPerriere would certainly recommend he get a baseline...

Absolutely.

What's the downside to taking a baseline test?

[flyercanuck]

Absolutely.

What's the downside to taking a baseline test?

 

 

How can they NOT give him one. They guy collapsed several times...I don't think it was his elbow. Good Lord.

[radoran]

I think everyone on this thread agreed it was a penalty. The disagreement came over Wilson's intent and how much of the blame is on Schenn.

 

It's a penalty and I don't have a problem with treating it that way, but the only reason it is being discussed more and being treated differently than any other penalty during that same game is because Schenn made the ill-advised decision to turn towards the boards.

 

It's not like the video isn't in the first post of this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Ldu2k0oKU#t=8

 

Schenn takes the puck and is just inside the end line when Wilson makes contact. Schenn is skating east/west with the puck. There is no obvious "turn into the boards" as we've seen stationary guys do in the face of oncoming pressure. I doubt, given the timing, that there was even a "decision" made to do anything beyond reflex.

 

Wilson makes contact from the side of Schenn, not into his back (see 1:16). The force of the hit sends Schenn sideways into the boards (see 1:22).

 

I've seen guys do the stupid turtle move and put themselves into positions like Patrice Bergeron here:

 

This isn't, IMO, the same thing at all.

 

Which is one reason he may not have a concussion.

[JackStraw]

@radoran - he says he doesn't remember the play. He doesn't remember staggering and falling while trying to get up. 99.99% probability (I looked it up on the internet) that he suffered a concussion. He may not have concussion symtoms (other than memory loss, which is kind of a big one) but I don't see how he didn't get the old bell rung. He should definitely be given a baseline test and probably sit at least one game (tonight) just to be on the safe side.

Edited December 19, 2013 by JackStraw

[radoran]

@radoran - he says he doesn't remember the play. He doesn't remember staggering and falling while trying to get up. 99.99% probability (I looked it up on the internet) that he suffered a concussion. He may not have concussion symtoms (other than memory loss, which is kind of a big one) but I don't see how he didn't get the old bell rung. He should definitely be given a baseline test and probably sit at least one game (tonight) just to be on the safe side.

 

Agree 10000% - but we're not doctors nor do we play one on the teevee nor do the Flyers employ us as such.

 

Absolutely inconceivable* that they aren't giving him a baseline.

 

 

* word may not mean what I think it means

[fanaticV3.0]

It's not like the video isn't in the first post of this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Ldu2k0oKU#t=8

 

Schenn takes the puck and is just inside the end line when Wilson makes contact. Schenn is skating east/west with the puck. There is no obvious "turn into the boards" as we've seen stationary guys do in the face of oncoming pressure. I doubt, given the timing, that there was even a "decision" made to do anything beyond reflex.

 

Wilson makes contact from the side of Schenn, not into his back (see 1:16). The force of the hit sends Schenn sideways into the boards (see 1:22).

 

I've seen guys do the stupid turtle move and put themselves into positions like Patrice Bergeron here:

 

This isn't, IMO, the same thing at all.

 

Which is one reason he may not have a concussion.

 

Why do you think his head hit at the angle it did? Like you said, he was skating east/west. What do you think happened, Wilson hit him so hard he spun Schenn around so that was at the perfect angle his head hit the boards head on? No, Schenn turned away from Wilson at the very last second. That's why he hit his head on the boards at such a direct angle. It's plain as day at the 3 second mark right before it turns to 4 seconds. 57-58 seconds offers another angle. Schenn say someone coming towards him and reacted. It's natural, but unfortunately not a good position to be in. The announcers even point out it does look like Schenn sees him coming.

Edited December 19, 2013 by fanaticV3.0