Okay I'm officially pissed at VLC

[canoli]

But don't play him with them all the time. It's not going to help him. Give him a bone once and a while. Playing with those two full time is just punishing him and the team.

 

well I can't see that it's punishing the team in any way. On the contrary I think Vin on the 4th line makes the Flyers stronger, more dangerous by icing a 4th line that can do more than defend and energize the bench.

 

as far as "Give him a bone once in a while." I reject that on principle. Are there exceptions? Certainly. A guy coming back from injury, a scorer struggling with his confidence...etc. But in general don't you think players must earn their minutes? What has VLC done to earn playing time? Let's face it not much till he got shoved down to the 4th line.

[fanaticV3.0]

well I can't see that it's punishing the team in any way. On the contrary I think Vin on the 4th line makes the Flyers stronger, more dangerous by icing a 4th line that can do more than defend and energize the bench.

 

as far as "Give him a bone once in a while." I reject that on principle. Are there exceptions? Certainly. A guy coming back from injury, a scorer struggling with his confidence...etc. But in general don't you think players must earn their minutes? What has VLC done to earn playing time? Let's face it not much till he got shoved down to the 4th line.

 

Vinny has scored 3 goals in his last two games. Only one of those goals came as a result of playing with his 4th line linemates (it was an assist from Hall). If you want a 4th line that can "do more than defend and energize the bench", you're going to have to do better than a goal scorer who's trying to find his game and two muckers.  Ain't nobody breaking out of a scoring drought playing with Hall and Rinaldo.

Edited April 1, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

Vinny has scored 3 goals in his last two games. Only one of those goals came as a result of playing with his 4th line linemates (it was an assist from Hall). If you want a 4th line that can "do more than defend and energize the bench", you're going to have to do better than a goal scorer who's trying to find his game and two muckers.  Ain't nobody breaking out of a scoring drought playing with Hall and Rinaldo.

 

OK, but that's the point - they are giving him "a bone once in a while."

 

He's playing on the PP and is the sixth guy when they pull the goalie. And he has two goals in that role already.

 

And a goal with the "fourth" line.

 

In two games.

[canoli]

@fanaticV3.0

 

um...what Rad said.

 

If you want a 4th line that can "do more than defend and energize the bench", you're going to have to do better than a goal scorer who's trying to find his game and two muckers

 

well I'm not so sure of that. He does have a "4th line goal" in 2 games, 100% more than he's had in the past ... god I can't even remember the last goal Vinny scored.

 

so - will his demotion "break him out of a scoring drought" as you put it? Not if you mean "put him on track for x-number of goals." But at this point Berube is looking for anything to spark his 14-year pro into playing like one. Apparently he struck the right chord. Small sample? Yes indeed. But I'll take 1 goal in 2 games over Zero goals in ... ? however many it was

 

At the very least his presence on the 4th line forces teams to defend them differently than a typical 4th line. Is it a long-term solution? I guess that's up to Vinny more or less. He's got Paul Holmgren and his agent (and himself) for joining a team with a glut of young centers. Now it's up to him to make the most of it and deliver some production for his $54,878 dollars a night.

[brelic]

I never dreamed the guy would DOG it so much...for so long. It was like he pouted all year, whoever they put him with.

 

It's no coincidence that he's a career -130. He plays on half the ice surface.

[brelic]

But there were more than a few people - yourself likely included - who noted that it's not usual for a player with his style to be playing effectively until he's 43.

 

Yes, I was definitely included in saying that. Only about 1-2% of NHL players in a given year are over 40, so it's a fool's game to believe that your player is somehow different. If he makes it that far, sure, reward him with single year contracts as long as he can handle it (e.g. Lidstrom, Jagr). The only reason to do what Homer did was to circumvent the cap.

[canoli]

well okay it's "no coincidence" but it's also in this case an extremely misleading stat - more than it usually is. I'm not saying it means nothing but he's not strictly a one-way player like others we could name. I watched him a lot in TB and if he coasted a few shifts every night he generally was pretty responsible defensively.

 

Like a former Flyer who shall not be named (17) his forte is scoring goals. He never tried to be Dave Poulin and as long as he's scoring nobody gives much of a damn. IMHO - like 17 - he's a pretty good defender all in all, given what he brings on the offensive side (or what he should be bringing for 54 grand a night!).

[Mad Dog]

Trying to figure out why he was even signed in the first place may be a difficult task. Clearly, he was not signed with a sole purpose to address the center position needs, because at the time he was signed - as I am sure many people remember - there was no such deficit in centers on the roster.  I even recall many people expressing a concern that this would probably mean bumbing Schenn off the top two lines or playing him out of position.

 

I don't know how many people remember, but during the press conference when Homer introduced VLC, he was singing praises to VLC, saying he is one of the most exciting and skilled players in the league and how he would bring an increased level of excitement... blah blah blah....  As I was listening to that presser, I could not help but get a very distinct feeling that this was yet another Snider's move.  The guy just can't help himself.  He is obssessed with bringing *names* to the roster.  Never mind there is hardly a NEED for those players aside from any othr potential implications of such signings.  It's almost like the guy lives in his own world and has his own agenda. 

[canoli]

It's almost like the guy lives in his own world and has his own agenda.

 

Ya. It's called being an owner and answering to a corporation. If you don't put asses in the seats you're out.

 

I got a very similar feeling during the presser, not so much that it was Ed's call but that bringig in Vinny was more about PR and selling tickets than it was about hockey. The Flyers always bring in "the name" - and figure out what to do with him later. Dump him on the coach let him work it out. A back-asswards way to build a champion but maybe it's the smartest way to run a professional team I don't know.

[brelic]

well okay it's "no coincidence" but it's also in this case an extremely misleading stat - more than it usually is. I'm not saying it means nothing but he's not strictly a one-way player like others we could name. I watched him a lot in TB and if he coasted a few shifts every night he generally was pretty responsible defensively.

 

I didn't watch him very much in TB so if you say it's so, I'll believe you. But based on what I've seen of him this year, he's a half-the-ice kind of player. He'll put in the odd backcheck now and then, but in general, he's been lazy on defense this year. 

[Mad Dog]

Ya. It's called being an owner and answering to a corporation. If you don't put asses in the seats you're out.

 

I got a very similar feeling during the presser, not so much that it was Ed's call but that bringig in Vinny was more about PR and selling tickets than it was about hockey. The Flyers always bring in "the name" - and figure out what to do with him later. Dump him on the coach let him work it out. A back-asswards way to build a champion but maybe it's the smartest way to run a professional team I don't know.

 

Yes, I think you put it perfectly.  I don't know if tehre is anything else to add to it.

 

And I realize putting asses in the seats is one of the drivers in decision-making processes.  But the Flyers almost re-defined this.  lol.  Even the Rangers are not keeping up with that anymore. 

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

um...what Rad said.

 

 

 

 

well I'm not so sure of that. He does have a "4th line goal" in 2 games, 100% more than he's had in the past ... god I can't even remember the last goal Vinny scored.

 

so - will his demotion "break him out of a scoring drought" as you put it? Not if you mean "put him on track for x-number of goals." But at this point Berube is looking for anything to spark his 14-year pro into playing like one. Apparently he struck the right chord. Small sample? Yes indeed. But I'll take 1 goal in 2 games over Zero goals in ... ? however many it was

 

At the very least his presence on the 4th line forces teams to defend them differently than a typical 4th line. Is it a long-term solution? I guess that's up to Vinny more or less. He's got Paul Holmgren and his agent (and himself) for joining a team with a glut of young centers. Now it's up to him to make the most of it and deliver some production for his $54,878 dollars a night.

 

... is a confirmation of exactly what I said, which you "rejected on principle". I said I'm fine with him on the 4th, but give him something to work with once and a while, which they have and it has yielded results.

 

Why the the hell are you only acknowledging his "4th line goal"? He's scored 3 in his last 2, 2 of which came when he wasn't on the 4th line, but this is the one that stands out to you? Say what?

Edited April 1, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[canoli]

... is a confirmation of exactly what I said, which you "rejected on principle".

 

ha - ya i guess i should've been clearer. when you said "throw him a bone" i took that to mean "move him back to a scoring line" so we don't hurt poor Vinny's feelings or something. When rad said they were throwing him a bone by giving him top PP minutes and being the first 6th man I agreed because it's true. The first notion I reject for the reasons I said. And I was surprised to see him with Giroux on the PP. That 2nd unit - I don't know the numbers but maybe Berube wanted to shake that up a bit too.

 

Anyway, this 4th line experiment - I wonder how committed Berube is to it. In the Boston game I think Vinny was back with Simmonds and Schenn for long stretches after the 1st. Let's see tonight...

[fanaticV3.0]

ha - ya i guess i should've been clearer. when you said "throw him a bone" i took that to mean "move him back to a scoring line" so we don't hurt poor Vinny's feelings or something. When rad said they were throwing him a bone by giving him top PP minutes and being the first 6th man I agreed because it's true. The first notion I reject for the reasons I said. And I was surprised to see him with Giroux on the PP. That 2nd unit - I don't know the numbers but maybe Berube wanted to shake that up a bit too.

 

Anyway, this 4th line experiment - I wonder how committed Berube is to it. In the Boston game I think Vinny was back with Simmonds and Schenn for long stretches after the 1st. Let's see tonight...

 

Nope. I'm absolutely fine with him on the fourth, but just as as long as he gest some real linemates once and a while. I think what has been happening so far is fine and it's actually yileded results.

[ruxpin]

well yes, but I never imagined he'd be skating between Zac and Adam Hall for crying out loud! did you? did anybody?

as to who they should've targetted - agreed. 100%. I didn't mind the Vinny signing so much because I've always liked him and St. Louis so much. I figured we're getting 1/2 of that duo so what the hell, take what we can get. And 50 pts skating 2nd line wasn't too much to dream. But I should've known better. First of all like you say another center is not what we needed. Second - I think Jammer put it best somewhere recently - we got a guy who apparently gave his heart 'n soul to another club for 14 years and now he's got nothing left for the Flyers.

[edit: btw, refresh my memory if you can - why did we (apparently) give up on Vinny centering the 2nd line so quickly? I honestly don't remember the sequence of events. Vinny was playing well when nobody else was besides Mason. Then he got hurt...then...wh? Schenn moved up and performed so well that Vinny never got another look?]

@canoli! Hey, how are ya? I haven't even read your post yet but was really glad to see your screen name. I'm sure you'll be stunned to hear but I was actually worried about your absence. Good to see you.

[flyercanuck]

@canoli! Hey, how are ya? I haven't even read your post yet but was really glad to see your screen name. I'm sure you'll be stunned to hear but I was actually worried about your absence. Good to see you.

+1. Good to see canoli back!

Now, where's Kdstifa or whatever his name was?

[canoli]

ha! Thank you. It's great to get a "welcome back" from 2 of the elder statesmen here.

 

I wish i could say the past few months made me smarter but i'm afraid I'm still the long-winded, Hartnell and Coburn-loving, played-for-4-years-30-years-ago poster I always was!

[ruxpin]

I wish i could say the past few months made me smarter but i'm afraid I'm still the long-winded, Hartnell and Coburn-loving, played-for-4-years-30-years-ago poster I always was!

 

Coburn has really stepped up his game.  He's playing well.   Don't tell @canoli I said so, or I'll never live it down.

[jammer2]

Only about 1-2% of NHL players in a given year are over 40, so it's a fool's game to believe that your player is somehow different.

 

 That's the perfect way to approach these long term deals. Most guys have lost 2 steps at 40, and don't come even close to resembling the player they once were. Sure, there are some rare exemptions. Of course, another huge variable here is injury history. If the guy is injury prone in his late 20's and early 30's....the late 30's and early 40's will be absolute nightmares. Homer was being an idiot here......"Look Ed, a shiny new toy.....whoa".....what a tool. Who knows, maybe Homer factored in the injury situation and had a working theory that Vinny would be LTIR for the last few years of this deal, and would not impact the cap. Ha ha....I don't know many GM's that would hope their new signee was unable to play a few years after signing....but this is Flyerland, where the bizarre can and will happen.

 

  I'm sickened by how many career ending contracts Homer and Clarke have handed out over the years....we must lead the league in that cat......LOL!

[Vanflyer]

Vinny was playing well when nobody else was besides Mason. Then he got hurt...then...wh? Schenn moved up and performed so well that Vinny never got another look?

 

The problem with Vinny is that he is like ovie. Plays very well from the red line on in, but you never see him in the backend. B. Schenn plays all 200ft. Its not just with the Flyers, he has always been that player. Not to Ovies extent, but same principal. 

[canoli]

#8 is in a class by himself, esp this year. VLC may not be a 2-way guy but he's not Ovechkin for christ's sake! lol.

 

i don't remember how long VLC got to skate 2nd line center...but at this point, considering Schenn's year...would it be so terrible to try him again?

 

I like Schenn but probably not as much as a lot of you guys. I see too much JVR in his game - inconsistency. I'm not saying he's a dud or anything. But he's a young, 2nd-line center who's a couple years out from his rookie year and I just don't see a consistent effort from him.

 

as far as VLC...Homer signed him to a long, expensive contract. I dread the idea that 13 mins. a night working with Zac and Adam Hall is the best we can do with him. Obviously a lot of what happens to VLC is up to VLC. But I don't think Schenn has any great claim on keeping his 2nd-line spot.

[flyercanuck]

@canoli

 

 Schenn should get better as his career goes forward. Vinnie will likely get worse.

[canoli]

yeah that's only too true ... so maybe that means the Flyers better get what they can from VLC, and soon. If he's ever going to be effective on a scoring line it's this year and (hopefully) next year. After that he's 35, 36 years old...and he already looks old.

 

I'm just a little impatient with Schenn. At times he's a clutch player (only G has more GWers). But a lot of nights I wonder where he is. Most of Simmonds' goals come on the PP. Schenn's line just doesn't look like much of a threat 5 on 5.

[flyercanuck]

@canoli

 

 Something you gotta learn ...patience.. Schenn is coming along...slowly, but surely.

 

 Look at Ryan Johanson on Columbus. Last year the term "bust" was being thrown at him. 20 years old! This year he's scored 31 g

[brelic]

I don't know many GM's that would hope their new signee was unable to play a few years after signing....but this is Flyerland, where the bizarre can and will happen.

 

In some cases, you have to overpay to get the player you want. For example, in the Kovalchuk case, both the Kings and Devils were willing to overpay and overcommit for a star player in his prime that would have a clear star role on their team. 

 

For Vinny, the Flyers had to overpay and overcommit to get him to come to Philly. The snag, however, is that he's not a player we really needed, and he's not a player that had a clear role on the Flyers. 

 

If Montreal would have signed him, Vinny would likely have battled for top line center with Plekanec. Even if he lost out, he would have been head and shoulders above anyone else for 2nd line center. Here, he has no role. 

 

And how pissed do you think he is about being on the 4th line? He talks the good talk - and he seems to be a great team guy that way. But inside, I'm sure this is tearing him apart.