COMBINED: "Whither or Not Vinny"

[doom88]

Cammaleri got a contract, why not trade for Vinny?

[King Knut]

I say play him on liner 2 at C and let him light it up as best he can and make him look incredibly valuable for a few months. Sacrifice Schenn's devel til December in order to make the trade.

You can market all you want, the tough part is convincing any other GM that he will be on the ice for the entire year. He is now officially injury prone. His back is a mess, along with the many other ailments. There is just better, cheaper options out there available for a trade. When you factor in the floating, it's a very tough sell. For instance, the Islanders have 5 legit centers, Bailey is young, still rising in the points, has upside and is signed until 2018 for 3.3 million.

[Mad Dog]

@peter puck

 

No way.  Coots is the future of this team.  Coots is quietly becoming one of the better young defensive forwards.  He is a natural center and there is no way I am asking him to change his position to accomodate an aging, over-the-hill player who is *not* in this team's future plans. 

 

The other aspect of this - it will hardly matter... Vinnie will not succeed playing on the 3rd line with Cooter.  He needs a skilled winger to be successful, especially at this point in his career.  Playing with Coots and Raffl (or Reid) will not help Vinnie, hence the team.

 

It's bad. It really is. Signing VLC is a bow tie on Homer's disastrous tenure as the Flyers' GM.

[Mad Dog]

There simply is no role for him on this team. There wasn't when he was signed. There won't be 2, 3, 4 years from now.

 

Trying him with G and Jake is the only possible place for him.  If they do it and it fails too, I am really not sure *what* they can or will do...

 

One thing I know, I don't envy Hexy right now.

[canoli]

Fans, coaches, GMs, etc., most of us can look at VLC and find the positives. Or you can stress and emphasize the negatives. But 0.83, 0.77, 0.82 pts/game are not "bad years" by any stretch of the imagination. Then there's last year - 0.54 pts/game, 20 goals, first year in a new city, new team, Philly O&B isn't Tampa Bay, Philadephia takes its pro sports seriously. He's playing wing, then he's hurt, etc. I happen to like him so I'm fine giving him a 1-year "free pass."

 

The last 4 years he missed about 10-15 games per year. Not great, not horrible. "Injury prone?" I'm not so sure.

 

He's had a long career and it's no surprise he's showing the effects of it. How is his back? We don't know. To what extent will it hamper his play in 2014-15? We don't know. He may very well be no more "injury prone" than the next 15-year career NHL pro. He's certainly not in the Crosby/Gagne category of "head cases."

 

VLC's only real drawback from a trade / marketing perspective is the length of his contract and even that isn't outrageous. It will give any rational GM pause but not a drawn-out, over-dramatic pause just a regular, normal, deep breath. He's 34 not 38 and his production, even the later-years version is still fairly impressive (besides  last year). What he brings night after night when healthy (and playing in the middle) is undeniable.

 

I have no idea how motivated he is - to work harder, adjust his game to suit his lowered production. As long as he's playing center his big adjustment will be his conditioning. In TB he could "float" a few shifts per night (putting up 100+ points tends to create some slack from the coaches). However you count the shifts, any time he stepped on the ice he was a dangerous, offensive threat. Maybe he can be that again for the Flyers. Until it's proven otherwise I'll hope for exactly that, and give him a pass on last season. And if Hextall can find a way to trade him without throwing in a pick - any pick - that will be okay by me too.

 

 

[brelic]

Fans, coaches, GMs, etc., most of us can look at VLC and find the positives. Or you can stress and emphasize the negatives. But 0.83, 0.77, 0.82 pts/game are not "bad years" by any stretch of the imagination. Then there's last year - 0.54 pts/game, 20 goals, first year in a new city, new team, Philly O&B isn't Tampa Bay, Philadephia takes its pro sports seriously. He's playing wing, then he's hurt, etc. I happen to like him so I'm fine giving him a 1-year "free pass."

 

The last 4 years he missed about 10-15 games per year. Not great, not horrible. "Injury prone?" I'm not so sure.

 

He's had a long career and it's no surprise he's showing the effects of it. How is his back? We don't know. To what extent will it hamper his play in 2014-15? We don't know. He may very well be no more "injury prone" than the next 15-year career NHL pro. He's certainly not in the Crosby/Gagne category of "head cases."

 

VLC's only real drawback from a trade / marketing perspective is the length of his contract and even that isn't outrageous. It will give any rational GM pause but not a drawn-out, over-dramatic pause just a regular, normal, deep breath. He's 34 not 38 and his production, even the later-years version is still fairly impressive (besides  last year). What he brings night after night when healthy (and playing in the middle) is undeniable.

 

I have no idea how motivated he is - to work harder, adjust his game to suit his lowered production. As long as he's playing center his big adjustment will be his conditioning. In TB he could "float" a few shifts per night (putting up 100+ points tends to create some slack from the coaches). However you count the shifts, any time he stepped on the ice he was a dangerous, offensive threat. Maybe he can be that again for the Flyers. Until it's proven otherwise I'll hope for exactly that, and give him a pass on last season. And if Hextall can find a way to trade him without throwing in a pick - any pick - that will be okay by me too.

 

Nice post, canoli. It sounds like you're saying the only thing we can control is our perspective, so we may as well have a positive outlook! Totally agree. I fall into the negativity trap pretty easily, and your post was a great reminder to snap me back to a different outlook.

 

Outside of not being a player of 'need', especially coming off the heels of buying out Briere, I would think that Vinny's game is not a fit for Berube and now, Hextall's system. He is a career -132. I don;t see any more commitment to defense from Vinny than I did with Briere.

 

That caveat aside, it's in the team's and Vinny's best interests to put him in a position to succeed. That means center. And that means a predominantly offensive role. If he can play 2nd line center and build some chemistry with at least one winger - Schenn and Simmonds did not work out last year - Berube can maximize his strengths.

 

This helps the team, it likely creates a more engaged and enthusiastic VLC, and it increases his trade value should it come to that. 

[radoran]

"Injury prone?" I'm not so sure.

 

He hasn't played a full season since 09-10. Including the lockout. If that's not "injury prone" what is?

 

Again, there are positives for VLC - just precious few of them apply to the Flyers and not too too many more apparently are enticing any other team to take him off the Flyers' hands.

 

These are the facts as we know them today.

 

I fall into the negativity trap pretty easily, and your post was a great reminder to snap me back to a different outlook.

 

Maintaining the perspective one had when the deal went down in the first place - that it was a bad deal for the team that didn't solve any problems and created more than a few of its own - isn't "falling into a trap of negativity" it's being consistent to one's opinions and beliefs. The facts are that the facts support the original perspective.

 

We can all sit around and sing Kumbaya while Vinny strums an acoustic guitar, but that's not going to change the fundamental truths of the situation. He's a player who hasn't played a full season since 09-10, who's production has declined each full season over that stretch and put up a 44.6% FO% last year, even taking draws against 3/4 line opposition.

 

FWIW, my new pair of orange and black glasses are due to arrive today.

 

Another true story.

[doom88]

Sheesh rad, is someone banging your wife?

[canoli]

We can all sit around and sing Kumbaya while Vinny strums an acoustic guitar

 

 

Oh can we? Please? Name the place and time and I'll be there!

 

 

He's a player who hasn't played a full season since 09-10

 

 

 

He hasn't played a full season since 09-10. Including the lockout.

 

 

Vincent Lecavlier has missed time due to injury? How much time has the guy missed? Must be a lot considering how often you make this point. Let's check the stats. ?? 10-15 games a season.

 

 

Maintaining the perspective one had when the deal went down in the first place - that it was a bad deal for the team that didn't solve any problems and created more than a few of its own - isn't "falling into a trap of negativity" it's being consistent to one's opinions and beliefs. The facts are that the facts support the original perspective.

 

 

Maintaining a negative perspective is just that, maintaining a negative perspective. We all agree it was a bad move bringing Lecavalier to the Flyers. But it isn't noble or somehow more correct to keep reminding ourselves of that. The fact is he's a Flyer until Hextall moves him; the coaches will have to find a way to make it work. We can hammer away all day at Homer's shortsightedness (or stupidity, whatever you want to call it) but Brel is right, that is "a trap of negativity."

 

courage my son...we must face the 4-year, $4.5 mil, NMC contract together...

[Mad Dog]

courage my son...we must face the 4-year, $4.5 mil, NMC contract together...

 

Well, there are always ways.  With some creativity they can find a way to move the player *and* his NMC. 

 

Thre rest of your post I agree with. I think as much as the whole situation blows, they can work it out... which is why the best thing they can do is to put him on the first line and see if he clicks with G and Jake.  At least this is really their best option, as it seems... There are simply no better alternatives.  It makes sense financially and it makes sense hockey-wise.  He can't and won't play with B Schenn.  And he can't play on the 3rd line with Couturier.

[radoran]

Sheesh rad, is someone banging your wife?

 

 

 

 

Maintaining a negative perspective is just that, maintaining a negative perspective. We all agree it was a bad move bringing Lecavalier to the Flyers. But it isn't noble or somehow more correct to keep reminding ourselves of that. The fact is he's a Flyer until Hextall moves him; the coaches will have to find a way to make it work. We can hammer away all day at Homer's shortsightedness (or stupidity, whatever you want to call it) but Brel is right, that is "a trap of negativity."

 

courage my son...we must face the 4-year, $4.5 mil, NMC contract together...

 

In the context of a thread ABOUT moving VLC that I did not start - one of many similar threads on this site that I did not start* and given that this is July and the player involved isn't even skating with the team, nor is the team doing anything else other than skating prospects - discussing the possibility of moving the player and the benefits thereof seem to be perfectly in line with not only the general feeling on the board, but in the overall media in general and, given that the organization itself is allowing the player to examine the possibility of finding another place to "earn" his $4.5M, I'm not sure how all of my "negativity" affects a damn thing.

 

Nor how all of the "well, I'm sure remaking the team to fit VLC's skill set" (as opposed to, you know, what might be best for the team if they hadn't made what we all concede to be a dumb move) - the idea of which I have agreed with and posted in support of is evidence of rampant "negativity."

 

The player in question has missed 10-15 games a year on average and we heard more than a few times during the season that he was either 1) not playing well because he was injured before he stopped playing or 2) that he shouldn't be expected to be playing well because he had just come off from injury - the actual effect of the multiple, annual injuries in question just might be a little more impactful than simply the games "missed."

 

If Toronto - or Buffalo or Pittsburgh or, indeed, any other team - had signed this guy to this contract, I'd venture to guess the two of you just might have a bit of a different perspective.

 

Come the season, should he still be on the roster, then we will see whether the decline goes into rapid arrest and turnaround or continues at the pace it has already been moving.

 

This team would be better without VLC on the roster and with any luck will be better.

 

For all of your "positivity" I think that both of you would concede that point.

 

And, really, what more "positive" thing for the team could there be in this situation?

 

 

* and have merged into this megathread

Edited July 12, 2014 by radoran
merged threads

[canoli]

[edit: @Mad Dog]

 

You mean put VLC on LW and let him adjust to it? I don't know my friend I thought we'd "been there done that" with Lecavalier on wing. I figure the best spot for him is 2nd-line center and let the rest of the chips fall where they may.

 

Am I missing something with the "He can't and won't play with B Schenn" thing? Or did you mean - they tried that and it didn't work out. Yeah they did - though I don't think they got very many games together did they?

 

Whatever the case Mr. Lecavalier will need to act like the 15-year professional he is and commit himself to producing points for the Flyers. If that means somebody needs to have a heart-to-heart with the guy... whatever...the Flyes have to make this work if Hextall can't move him. None of us want to see another WTF year out of Vinny Lecavalier.

Edited July 12, 2014 by canoli

[radoran]

Trying him with G and Jake is the only possible place for him.  If they do it and it fails too, I am really not sure *what* they can or will do...

 

One thing I know, I don't envy Hexy right now.

 

 

I don't either.

 

And, for all my "negativity" I suggested this last year when they signed him.

 

For what it's worth, they have said they have "tried" VLC centering Giroux and in the few shifts here and there, it didn't seem to work...

[doom88]

Well, you're beating a dead horse, and bringing nothing new to the conversation (bad contract, injuries). On top of that, you're implicitly insisting you're right and any opposing thoughts are wrong.

The negativity only affects the forum, as none of us affect the real team. I was trying to joke a little and suggest you calm down a little. It's the weekend, enjoy. If people want to put a fresh perspective on things, let them?

[doom88]

And yes, the team is likely to be better without VLC. But, that's no lock, as the guys who need to step up are woefully inconsistent. It's a decent idea to contingency plan.

[Mad Dog]

@canoli

 

You mean put VLC on LW and let him adjust to it? I don't know my friend I thought we'd "been there done that" with Lecavalier on wing. I figure the best spot for him is 2nd-line center and let the rest of the chips fall where they may.

 

No.  What I had in mind was keeping Vinnie at his natural position (the center that is) and asking G to switch to the wing.  Again, this is far from ideal, but given the alternatives, this at least has a chance of working out. 

 

I am cutt'n-pasting a quote from the man himself,

 

"If you'd ask me what position I'd want to play, obviously I'd say center," said Lecavalier, who played his whole life at that position before this season.

 

That was after one of the games last season, when VLC has visibly shown a frustration.  If this quote doesn't paint the whole gruesome situation the Flyers found themsleves in, I am not sure what will.

 

Am I missing something with the "He can't and won't play with B Schenn" thing? Or did you mean - they tried that and it didn't work out. Yeah they did - though I don't think they got very many games together did they?

 

Umm, yeah, you are missing something.   Berube tried him on the second line, constantly switching between him and Schenn.  Schenn was asked to play a wing and showed he was having a tough time adjusting.  From the quote above and everyhting else we've witnessed, we already know how *Vinnie* feels about playing wing.  But, the bigger issues us, it was very obvious, he and Schenn just didn't work well together, irrespective of who played what position.  These two have no chemistry at all. I don't think there is any sense in keeping trying. That boat has sailed; no point in trying to catch it. 

 

In fact, I am almost positive they asked Vinnie to play all three forward positions last season, and the reality is he can't play wing, which is not necessarily because he is lazy.  Some players just can't play any other position from what they are accustomed to. 

 

My point is, we don't know if Giroux can play wing either.  But this is one thing they didn't try last season... I don't think.  Both the Flyers and VLC are out of options.

[Mad Dog]

 

For what it's worth, they have said they have "tried" VLC centering Giroux and in the few shifts here and there, it didn't seem to work...

 

When?  At practice?  Because I don't recall them doing it during games, but I didn't watch every single game of the season, although I imagine I would've heard of that...

[jammer2]

  Pressbox him until he gets mothballs built up in his thousand dollar suits!!  Pressbox him for so long he will pay the Flyers a million bucks to trade him. Seriously, if he is not one of the top 12 forwards on this team, he needs to not play, big contract or not. He's under 35, so if he retires he just comes right off the cap....no?  Embarrass him into retirement!!!

[flyercanuck]

 @doom88

 

 @canoli

 

 I admit I went the same way as Radpin Ruxdoran has over the last handful of years. Been a fan for a long time. Watched this team try the same blueprint for two decades. Trade young players away. Trade draft picks away. Bring in expensive past their prime vets on stupid boat anchor contracts.. Go to the lost and found for goalies. 

 

 When Homer came in he said all the things I wanted to hear. Build through the draft. No more trading youth away. Blah, blah blah. I said I'd rather watch this team walk back to a championship than run back to mediocrity. But Homer didn't have patience to walk. Had to have the Brieres. Prongers. Bryzzzzz. VLCs. Screw sucking for another year or two and drafting a Stamkos or a Doughty or a Pietrangelo. Rushed right back in to mediocrity. And here we still sit. THAT was 2007.

 

 So I get the need to let off a little steam, purge some angst. While our new gm preaches build through the draft...no more trading youth. And we all buy into it....again. The pill is a lot easier to swaller when you actually see some results. And maybe we finally are going to on D, time will tell. But it's about friggin' time.

[canoli]

@flyercanuck

 

Sure that's understandable - actions speak louder...etc. And Hextall's first big action surprised me and not in a good way - the Hartnell / Umberger swap. I figure there are more pressing needs than losing Hartnell's penalties and subpar production - namely the Defense. Granted this isn't a great summer for UFA D-men. But the Flyers lost that trade. Not by much, but enough to make me wonder if Hextall is really looking ahead 2 years when RJ's contract expires...or he's cutting what he thinks is dead wood? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

@Mad Dog

 

okay so I'm not really missing anything - basically you're saying the Flyers tried it (Lecav and BSchenn together) and it didn't work. Well...I think if BSchenn wants a prominent role with the Flyers (or any NHL club) and a productive career he better figure out how to play with VLC or whoever they put with him. And that applies equally to Mr. Lecavalier - like I said, he has to be the 15-year pro he is and dedicate himself to the Flyers. It will be painfully obvious if he doesn't do that - OTOH if he does work hard and BSchenn starts playing with intensity more often we could have a strong 2nd line.

 

In a perfect world you get your best friend to skate alongside you and your skills complement each other. But when you're in the NHL and it's your profession you figure out how to skate with whoever the coaches give you. And that goes double for a veteran, big-time scorer - even if his big-time was years ago.

[flyercanuck]

@canoli

 

 I honestly don't think Hextall thought Umberger was any big upgrade over Hartnell this season. But getting out from that contract towards the end of it was probably more in line with big picture thinking.

[doom88]

@canoli

I honestly don't think Hextall thought Umberger was any big upgrade over Hartnell this season. But getting out from that contract towards the end of it was probably more in line with big picture thinking.

Exactly exact. It's about the cap.

There was a bonus, if you will. Despite Hartnell's penalties drawn, his penalties taken kill way way way too much momentum. Most of those were idiotic and undisciplined penalties to boot. His foot speed doesn't fit well anymore, and his defensive skills aren't all that.

Don't get me wrong, he's an awesome guy, and I see he brings a lot to the table in goal scoring, morale, and sandpaper. It's just not enough for the Flyers to overcome his shortcomings. YMMV.

[canoli]

Ya I guess you're right - instead of 5 more years it's 3 and that's a good thing. Hartnell brought a lot to the Flyers that I think was underappreciated, lost in all the jokes about HartnellDown. We may not have anyone who plays the agitator role anymore but Simmonds doesn't take any sh-- and I hope this is the year we say the same about Brayden Schenn.

[doom88]

Umberger is narrowly cheaper too. And doesn't have a NMC.

[canoli]

ya good point - forgot about Hartnell's NMC. Umberger's value should remain steady over the next couple years - hopefully - an asset we can use to acquire some defensive help or whatever.