You know what they really need?

[fanaticV3.0]

Veterans. Not just older players for the sake of it, Streit is old, but tested and proven veterans.

 

I like or am not "done with" (I'm looking at you, critics of the Good Schenn) the youth of this team. The core at least, I don't have any strong feelings about holding onto the likes of L. Schenn, Del Zotto, Rinaldo, Akeson, or possibly even Mason at this point (but that's another all-too-familiar discussion). But, G, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, Read, and Raffl are all keepers to me. They've all played together for nice chunk of time and we've seen most of them get better over that time. This is a team that also has Laughton, Ghost, Morin, and a few others in the system. I am not under the delusion they all make this team in the long run. Most will either be traded or simply won't be able to hack it in the league. But if you can get two of them to get integrated into a core of 7 guys who have spent the last few years together, that's a good thing.

 

They are too young and inexperienced. They made the PO last year and I think they could make the PO with that group at the core again, but they need a couple of guys who are seasoned, can handle pressure, and is someone others can rely upon when needed, if they hope to go beyond just making it. This team does not need more youth. They don't need more draft picks, prospects, or young project players.They have a bunch now and could possibly get even more in the next season or two. They need to make a splash in the FA market within the next three seasons if they want this core to go anywhere. It can be done through a trade, but there's a greater risk of losing that young core this way. A FA or two allows you to hold onto those 7-10 young guys and not messing up your core (which I think is a nice core, just needs a leader or two).

[murraycraven]

Calling Adam Oates....

[fanaticV3.0]

Calling Adam Oates....

 

By no means a bad player, he is the epitome of a guy who puts up numbers and doesn't lead his team to the promised land. He's exactly the kind of guy I don't want. The logic behind getting VLC at least makes sense. The pay, length of contract, and lack of consideration for his health is another story, but he at least played an integral part in a team winning a championship Oates is just a name. He throws up numbers and that's about it.

[briere48]

Veterans. Not just older players for the sake of it, Streit is old, but tested and proven veterans.

 

I like or am not "done with" (I'm looking at you, critics of the Good Schenn) the youth of this team. The core at least, I don't have any strong feelings about holding onto the likes of L. Schenn, Del Zotto, Rinaldo, Akeson, or possibly even Mason at this point (but that's another all-too-familiar discussion). But, G, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, Read, and Raffl are all keepers to me. They've all played together for nice chunk of time and we've seen most of them get better over that time. This is a team that also has Laughton, Ghost, Morin, and a few others in the system. I am not under the delusion they all make this team in the long run. Most will either be traded or simply won't be able to hack it in the league. But if you can get two of them to get integrated into a core of 7 guys who have spent the last few years together, that's a good thing.

 

They are too young and inexperienced. They made the PO last year and I think they could make the PO with that group at the core again, but they need a couple of guys who are seasoned, can handle pressure, and is someone others can rely upon when needed, if they hope to go beyond just making it. This team does not need more youth. They don't need more draft picks, prospects, or young project players.They have a bunch now and could possibly get even more in the next season or two. They need to make a splash in the FA market within the next three seasons if they want this core to go anywhere. It can be done through a trade, but there's a greater risk of losing that young core this way. A FA or two allows you to hold onto those 7-10 young guys and not messing up your core (which I think is a nice core, just needs a leader or two

 

i agree, if you look at the kings they have more older players than the flyers especially their center position it got them to two stanley cups,  i wouldnt be against it as long as they can still skate.

 

if you look at the really bad teams like the bruins, they shredded their good d players like boychuck and ference, letting iginla go, they are not the same team because of it.

[mojo1917]

@fanaticV3.0

 

while i don't disagree completely , i don't think signing a high priced veteran or making a "splash" in the free agent market helps this group.

The high priced long term VLC deal for the aging star has been done ad infinitum here with little success. Plus there isn't a whole lot of cap space to bring in a big name... i see merit with the way Chicago did it with Hossa helping the Towes , Kane, group but i really question if there is a guy out there who could be signed with the Hossa resume for the available cap space.

 

If they could find a Jagr type , an older player who has won, who will have instant respect in the new room because the player did R and X on a championship team is who i think they need.  

 

it has been said here somewhere else and i have said it too, bill guerin had a lot to do with that Pgh cup,  maybe he didn't show up on the score sheet but he was a guy that commanded respect in the room and helped a young captain lead a team to victory.  Guerin had done it before , did what the team needed .  That is the type of guy this group could use...

 

Edit: Dave Andreychuk comes to mind too, he was a little past his best years but was a great leader on the bolts great teams.

[King Knut]

I was going to say a Time Machine to go back to Homer's 2nd season as GM.

Stand pat at Timmo, Coburn, Hartnell and Briere.  Should have quit while he was ahead.

 

A lot of people rag on the Briere deal but I'd still like to have him around it's just that the rest of Homer's lunacy made it impossible.  Even so, we needed something that summer we signed him.  At least he panned out longer than Gomez did!

I'd even settle for Doc Brown setting the Dolorean for  July 1 2010. 

 

 

 

 

Veterans. Not just older players for the sake of it, Streit is old, but tested and proven veterans.

 

I like or am not "done with" (I'm looking at you, critics of the Good Schenn) the youth of this team. The core at least, I don't have any strong feelings about holding onto the likes of L. Schenn, Del Zotto, Rinaldo, Akeson, or possibly even Mason at this point (but that's another all-too-familiar discussion). But, G, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, Read, and Raffl are all keepers to me. They've all played together for nice chunk of time and we've seen most of them get better over that time. This is a team that also has Laughton, Ghost, Morin, and a few others in the system. I am not under the delusion they all make this team in the long run. Most will either be traded or simply won't be able to hack it in the league. But if you can get two of them to get integrated into a core of 7 guys who have spent the last few years together, that's a good thing.

 

They are too young and inexperienced. They made the PO last year and I think they could make the PO with that group at the core again, but they need a couple of guys who are seasoned, can handle pressure, and is someone others can rely upon when needed, if they hope to go beyond just making it. This team does not need more youth. They don't need more draft picks, prospects, or young project players.They have a bunch now and could possibly get even more in the next season or two. They need to make a splash in the FA market within the next three seasons if they want this core to go anywhere. It can be done through a trade, but there's a greater risk of losing that young core this way. A FA or two allows you to hold onto those 7-10 young guys and not messing up your core (which I think is a nice core, just needs a leader or two).

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

while i don't disagree completely , i don't think signing a high priced veteran or making a "splash" in the free agent market helps this group.

The high priced long term VLC deal for the aging star has been done ad infinitum here with little success. Plus there isn't a whole lot of cap space to bring in a big name... i see merit with the way Chicago did it with Hossa helping the Towes , Kane, group but i really question if there is a guy out there who could be signed with the Hossa resume for the available cap space.

 

If they could find a Jagr type , an older player who has won, who will have instant respect in the new room because the player did R and X on a championship team is who i think they need.  

 

it has been said here somewhere else and i have said it too, bill guerin had a lot to do with that Pgh cup,  maybe he didn't show up on the score sheet but he was a guy that commanded respect in the room and helped a young captain lead a team to victory.  Guerin had done it before , did what the team needed .  That is the type of guy this group could use...

 

Edit: Dave Andreychuk comes to mind too, he was a little past his best years but was a great leader on the bolts great teams.

 

I don't mean go get an older guy (he doesn't even have to be old 28, 29, and 30 year olds are veterans) just for the sake of getting an older guy. I mean getting one you know will make a difference. Jagr is a good example. We saw the impact he had here, particularly when he left. Guerin and Andreychuk are good examples too. Hell, Pronger is a good example. We don't make it to the Cup that year without him on the team. That group was in desperate need of a veteran (and I would say this one is too). This team needs experience. It needs guys who can handle pressure, inspire others, and lead. They have a nice young core, but they don't have those other things I just mentioned.

 

I don't know who that guy is either off the top of my head. I honestly couldn't tell you who is going to be a free agent this off season. It might not even be this year. But it's gotta be in the next few if they want this core ascend to another level. If they don't get some kind of calming/steadying veteran presence, they're gonna start trading some of those 7-10 guys I'm talking about. You know it's gonna happen.

[fanaticV3.0]

I was going to say a Time Machine to go back to Homer's 2nd season as GM.

Stand pat at Timmo, Coburn, Hartnell and Briere.  Should have quit while he was ahead.

 

A lot of people rag on the Briere deal but I'd still like to have him around it's just that the rest of Homer's lunacy made it impossible.  Even so, we needed something that summer we signed him.  At least he panned out longer than Gomez did!

I'd even settle for Doc Brown setting the Dolorean for  July 1 2010. 

 

I'm not sue what you mean. Not offer the NTCs? Not re-up some of them later on?

[brelic]

Iginla would have been a smart pickup. 

 

Fills a need, is a competitive veteran, and still has skills.

[fanaticV3.0]

Iginla would have been a smart pickup. 

 

Fills a need, is a competitive veteran, and still has skills.

 

Agreed.

 

I'd say "Now if we get get someone like that on D", but I think we all know our D needs a hell of a lot more than 1 guy.

[PhilsFanDrew]

How much time does someone need to be in the league to be a veteran and how much do they need to win to be reliable?   To me Claude Giroux is a veteran.   He's been in the league for more than 5 years, has played in the SCF, and has been paid a veterans contract.  VLC is a veteran and won the SC.   On defense they have Streit and until he got hurt had Kimmo Timonen.   I don't think its that they need more veterans.   They just have holes in their roster (defense and 1st Line LW).   Raffl is playing well now at 1st line LW but to me that is a position of need for the Flyers.   Whether its filled by a veteran or a young guy doesn't matter so long as they can consistently put up points.  Same thing with the D.   I don't care if the answer is some younger guys or a Vet.   They just someone who can play the position without blowing coverage or turning pucks over in their own zone.   

[fanaticV3.0]

How much time does someone need to be in the league to be a veteran and how much do they need to win to be reliable?   To me Claude Giroux is a veteran.   He's been in the league for more than 5 years, has played in the SCF, and has been paid a veterans contract.  VLC is a veteran and won the SC.   On defense they have Streit and until he got hurt had Kimmo Timonen.   I don't think its that they need more veterans.   They just have holes in their roster (defense and 1st Line LW).   Raffl is playing well now at 1st line LW but to me that is a position of need for the Flyers.   Whether its filled by a veteran or a young guy doesn't matter so long as they can consistently put up points.  Same thing with the D.   I don't care if the answer is some younger guys or a Vet.   They just someone who can play the position without blowing coverage or turning pucks over in their own zone.   

 

I honestly don't know what else to say that I haven't already said. I tried to be as clear/specific as possible, and people on the thread generally seem to understand what I'm saying (even if they don't agree), so I'm not sure how else I can try and explain it.

 

There is no magic number of seasons or Cups. You know how certain guys make a team better? You know it because you see what the teams are like without them? That's what I'm talking about.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Veterans. Not just older players for the sake of it, Streit is old, but tested and proven veterans.

 

I like or am not "done with" (I'm looking at you, critics of the Good Schenn) the youth of this team. The core at least, I don't have any strong feelings about holding onto the likes of L. Schenn, Del Zotto, Rinaldo, Akeson, or possibly even Mason at this point (but that's another all-too-familiar discussion). But, G, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, Read, and Raffl are all keepers to me. They've all played together for nice chunk of time and we've seen most of them get better over that time. This is a team that also has Laughton, Ghost, Morin, and a few others in the system. I am not under the delusion they all make this team in the long run. Most will either be traded or simply won't be able to hack it in the league. But if you can get two of them to get integrated into a core of 7 guys who have spent the last few years together, that's a good thing.

 

They are too young and inexperienced. They made the PO last year and I think they could make the PO with that group at the core again, but they need a couple of guys who are seasoned, can handle pressure, and is someone others can rely upon when needed, if they hope to go beyond just making it. This team does not need more youth. They don't need more draft picks, prospects, or young project players.They have a bunch now and could possibly get even more in the next season or two. They need to make a splash in the FA market within the next three seasons if they want this core to go anywhere. It can be done through a trade, but there's a greater risk of losing that young core this way. A FA or two allows you to hold onto those 7-10 young guys and not messing up your core (which I think is a nice core, just needs a leader or two).

 

 

I thought the point of this season was to let our young guys develop. Some in the NHL and others elsewhere. I really can't see a point to trading for a proven vet right now as by our mgmt's own admission... we're not an elite team right now and we will not be winning the Stanley Cup this year. 

 

I think the real thing that needs to happen is that we, the fans, need to realize this and get on board with a bridge year going on here. In other words... that dreaded word... Patience. 

[radoran]

If they could find a Jagr type , an older player who has won, who will have instant respect in the new room because the player did R and X on a championship team is who i think they need.

 

This, exactly. The hole is obvious.

 

It is, in fact, what they hoped they got in Pronger and why they blew the team up. And then what they hoped they would get in VLC - who, honestly, hasn't been "that guy" in years.

 

Amazingly, a Mike Richards might fit that role anywhere but Philadelphia.

[King Knut]

Or just resign Jagr three years ago for a song.

Imagine this team if we kept jagr and Carle

Imagine the stupid contracts we wouldn't now have in mediocre players.

Iginla would have been a smart pickup.

Fills a need, is a competitive veteran, and still has skills.

[King Knut]

Why not? Just replace some of the idiot sports writers who concoct urban legend out of here say and Richie will be just fine. If not grumpy

This, exactly. The hole is obvious.

It is, in fact, what they hoped they got in Pronger and why they blew the team up. And then what they hoped they would get in VLC - who, honestly, hasn't been "that guy" in years.

Amazingly, a Mike Richards might fit that role anywhere but Philadelphia.

[flyercanuck]

@King Knut

 

Richards? I'm a big fan...but he's got 5 more years after this one at 5.75. There won't be much left of him at that point. 

[radoran]

Why not? Just replace some of the idiot sports writers who concoct urban legend out of here say and Richie will be just fine. If not grumpy

 

The media circus is one thing, but there is too much baggage and it would, IMO, be difficult for Giroux to have a prior Flyers captain (especially "the next Bobby Clarke") in the room.

 

And the media circus would be unbearable.

[fanaticV3.0]

I thought the point of this season was to let our young guys develop. Some in the NHL and others elsewhere. I really can't see a point to trading for a proven vet right now as by our mgmt's own admission... we're not an elite team right now and we will not be winning the Stanley Cup this year. 

 

I think the real thing that needs to happen is that we, the fans, need to realize this and get on board with a bridge year going on here. In other words... that dreaded word... Patience. 

 

You don't put an embargo on players over the age of 26 just because you are in the process of rebuilding. We're not even an old team. Look at this roster. Just 7 of those 27 guys are over 30 and 2 of those seven are never going to play again.

[Bakanekimiwa]

You don't put an embargo on players over the age of 26 just because you are in the process of rebuilding. We're not even an old team. Look at this roster. Just 7 of those 27 guys are over 30 and 2 of those seven are never going to play again.

 

well, my sub point is that we'd need to trade someone to get someone. who is a trade chip(that people *want*) that isn't a part of the future that hexy is planning!? we'd have to give up someone of potential promise for a more experienced player. we're up against the cap and at the moment it's a dream to think someone will take VLC off our hands. 

[fanaticV3.0]

well, my sub point is that we'd need to trade someone to get someone. who is a trade chip(that people *want*) that isn't a part of the future that hexy is planning!? we'd have to give up someone of potential promise for a more experienced player. we're up against the cap and at the moment it's a dream to think someone will take VLC off our hands. 

 

 

You don't have to get rid of someone. There's always free agency. I actually mentioned that route specifically because I want to be patient and keep as many of the names I named that we can.

 

Even if you end up trading one prospect and some pics, it's not the end of the world (again, we are a young team). If Schenn and Couturier both really pan out, this team doesn't need Laughton. Our lineup is not going to be Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, and Laughton down the middle. Or if Schenn is "just" a 40 point guy and you want to take a chance with Laughton and ship Schenn out, it's really not the worst thing that could happen. Or look at the defensive side of things. On an almost daily basis, people are calling for some combination Morin, Ghost, Lauridsen, Alt, and Haag. They can spare to lose some of these guys and it would have no impact on this team's youth. Most of these guys aren't even going to make the team in the long run.

 

It doesn't have to be right now. You are right, they do have to make some cap space. I said in the next 1-3 years.

[Bakanekimiwa]

You don't have to get rid of someone. There's always free agency. I actually mentioned that route specifically because I want to be patient and keep as many of the names I named that we can.

 

Even if you end up trading one prospect and some pics, it's not the end of the world (again, we are a young team). If Schenn and Couturier both really pan out, this team doesn't need Laughton. Our lineup is not going to be Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, and Laughton down the middle. Or if Schenn is "just" a 40 point guy and you want to take a chance with Laughton and ship Schenn out, it's really not the worst thing that could happen. Or look at the defensive side of things. On an almost daily basis, people are calling for some combination Morin, Ghost, Lauridsen, Alt, and Haag. They can spare to lose some of these guys and it would have no impact on this team's youth. Most of these guys aren't even going to make the team in the long run.

 

It doesn't have to be right now. You are right, they do have to make some cap space. I said in the next 1-3 years.

 

 

Fair enough... I'll just state for the record that I'm against trading any of the younger pieces right now. I'm super tired of seeing the Justin Williams, Patrick Sharps and (to a lesser extent) JVR go on and thrive in another org simply because they were allowed to develop. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Fair enough... I'll just state for the record that I'm against trading any of the younger pieces right now. I'm super tired of seeing the Justin Williams, Patrick Sharps and (to a lesser extent) JVR go on and thrive in another org simply because they were allowed to develop. 

 

JVR was a top 6 forward here. I'd love to have that trade back, but he was given a fair shake here. The other two, Hitchcock banished to no man's land. They were screwed over by their coach. Those moves were on management, but JVR, as much as I would rather have him than Schenn, was given a chance here. I can't blame them for trading him. He was a loaf here. They just got a terrible, and boy was it terrible, return for him.

[canoli]

It is, in fact, what they hoped they got in Pronger and why they blew the team up. And then what they hoped they would get in VLC - who, honestly, hasn't been "that guy" in years.

 

 

Nobody in their right mind including the Flyers' brass thought VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department. It's anyone's guess what they saw in VLC but what they needed and why they hired Pronger was obvious to everyone.

 

Those moves are pretty far apart on the earth-shattering deals scale don't you think? The Pronger trade was a "mortgage the future" gamble and VLC they scraped off the FA market. Lumping them together as if they represent "more of the same" from the Flyers doesn't really work.

[radoran]

Nobody in their right mind including the Flyers' brass thought VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department. It's anyone's guess what they saw in VLC but what they needed and why they hired Pronger was obvious to everyone.

Those moves are pretty far apart on the earth-shattering deals scale don't you think? The Pronger trade was a "mortgage the future" gamble and VLC they scraped off the FA market. Lumping them together as if they represent "more of the same" from the Flyers doesn't really work.

I was going with the "veteran presence" we were discussing in context.

And, yes, I do believe Homer saw a former Cup winning captain bringing that sort of effect.

So, yeah, "no ons in their right mind"

Good point