ihabs1993 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 After the firing of Randy Carlyle, former Leafs coach, Ron Wilson, came forward and blasted the Leafs core for being "uncoachable" and targeted Phil Kessel in particular. Immediately after this, Kessel trade rumors started up. Personally, I think the writing was on the wall for Kessel from the beginning of the year (remember how he had not trained well all summer and was photographed at a golf outing with quite the beer-gut?). I have a few questions about the possible end of the Phil Kessel Saga in Toronto... Does he get moved? I think he does get moved, but his value will be diminished slightly. What does Toronto expect to get back? Probably a good forward plus, depending on what is coming back. Evander Kane has been "available" (or so it seems) all year long and that could be a good start for a swap. Winnipeg will probably want Kessel + for Kane. WILL TORONTO WIN A TRADE INVOLVING PHIL KESSEL? I think Toronto is going to try to get a nice return for Kessel, as they still have nightmares about what they gave up for him. I don't think Toronto will look back and say that they won a trade involving sending Phil Kessel out of Toronto. What say you? Ianihabs1993 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Clueless Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In my opinion, if Winnipeg wants Kessel + for Kane, they can screw right off. I think the Leafs would be more likely to target a very good young player as the centerpiece of a more package type deal. Preferably defense or centre. I honestly don't know if they'll move Kessel. It's almost 50/50, but it probably depends on how they finish the year under Horachek. At this point I also wouldn't be surprised if he requests a trade. Lupul, Bozak, Franson, Reimer, and maybe Polak are the more likely trading block guys from Toronto. Possibly Santorelli and Winnik too, if they don't agree on extensions. Personally I'd rather keep those two as they've been very useful players, but who knows? People say the team that gets the better player wins the trade. I doubt the Leafs get the better player unless they get really lucky. Package is the most likely return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I've never been a Kessel fan. I always get the feeling that he never wanted to play in Toronto, from day one. I think he has been an embarrassment to the club (for reasons that aren't all his fault): - The all-star game "pick me last" scenario was a huge embarrassment for the Leafs- The trade that brought him here is the worst in NHL history (will Seguin challenge Crosby for #1 player overall next?)- Salute gate (I mean really? Snubbing the highest paying and most loyal fans in hockey = career suicide.) I think fans in Toronto have tried to like Phil Kessel, but given how the trade panned out, and given his shy, media avoiding nature, and stupid things like "salute gate", I think he's hard to like... even for Leafs fans. I imagine he is despised in the locker room. He doesn't seem like a team player. When Boston gave up on him that was a red flag right there. He wore out his welcome there, and I think he has done the same in Toronto. Tough part is, Toronto can't get any value for him now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 @ihabs1993 The Kessel cap hit is $8M until 2022. Yikes I can't see anyway a team will trade for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilmonkey Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 i am not an overly large kessel fan but the guy takes way to much ****. He is easily top 10 best point producers in the NHL over the past what 5+ years all the guy wants is to be left alone and just play hockey, hes made it clear he doesn't want to be a leader and thats fine there a lots of people out there in regular work situations that dont want to be manager or whatever they just want to go in do their job to the best of their ability and go home....thats Phil IMO. He's also made some players a lot better Bozak comes to mind, i like bozak but he is nothing better then a decent 2nd line center but benefits from playing with Kessel. What leafs need is a true leader to take the pressure off kessel, if only Sundin was 10 years younger and playing with Kessel right now this would be completely different atmosphere. I dont think we would have any trouble trading kessel, i think we would have trouble getting back what we would lose in point production if we lost him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Clueless Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 @ihabs1993 The Kessel cap hit is $8M until 2022. Yikes I can't see anyway a team will trade for that. Not sure I agree hf. Kessel has a big cap hit, but he's also a big time point producer. His contract isn't a steal, but I really don't think it's bad either. Unlike Phaneuf (who's a bit overpaid), I think Kessel's contract is pretty fair market value. Kessel would be a great piece for a team with a solid core looking for that big offensive core player to boost them over the top. The LA Kings acquiring Carter/Gaborik is a great example of that. He just can't be THE guy, or you get what the Leafs have. Kessel is a top 5 scorer (I think) over the past 4 years or so. He's not as valuable as those guys that can score like that and have other features, like leadership or defensive prowess, but I don't think we're asking for Giroux-level returns here. Leafs would undoubtedly have to take salary back (hopefully short term) to balance cap because such is the reality in the cap world. Trades seem harder to make these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 - Salute gate (I mean really? Snubbing the highest paying and most loyal fans in hockey = career suicide.) What about Captain Phaneuf's role in "salute gate" - or the other 18 players on the team, for that matter? All "career suicide" in Toronto, or just the American Kessel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabs1993 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 @Commander Clueless I'm not saying I agree with the Jets' value on Kane, that's just where they Jets have him valued. It's way too high for him. And I agree with you saying his contract is moveable. Luongo got moved and his contract was gross. It's possibly if the Leafs and Kessel want to get it done. He'll probably go to a smaller market team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Never mind his contract/cap hit, what GM would want Phil's apparent attitude? Certainly not Winnipeg. The one thing the Jets have going for them under Maurice is team chemistry and a team first mentality. Kane is a bit of a douche, but he is not a selfish player or a cancer in the room. At least there is no evidence for that. He works hard, blocks shots, plays injured etc - all the things that earn the respect of your teammates and coach. I just cannot see the Jets trading that kind of players for the mercurial Kessel. It makes no sense and is directly at odds with front office philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabs1993 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom well the Bruins also "gave up" on guys like Seguin and Wheeler. Those guys are studs, Seguin more than Wheeler, but you get the point. If Kessel was in a smaller market, he would put up 40 goals a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Clueless Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 What about Captain Phaneuf's role in "salute gate" - or the other 18 players on the team, for that matter? All "career suicide" in Toronto, or just the American Kessel? In the hockey world, Toronto is synonymous with career suicide. Coaches, players, everybody. Well, unless you sign a dirt cheap 1 year deal looking for a big pay day somewhere else in the near future (see Clarke MacArthur, Mason Raymond, and probably Mike Santorelli). Of course, if a team ever manages to bring a championship to Toronto, they will be immortalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If Kessel was in a smaller market, he would put up 40 goals a season. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 @Commander Clueless Immortalized? Heck you get that for making the playoffs in TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Clueless Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 @flyercanuck Tell that to Carlyle, the first Leaf coach to make the playoffs in a decade. I'm not sure "immortalized" is the right word. He wasn't even the butt of everyone's jokes for more than 5 minutes before we all piled back on Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Clueless Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Why? Because smaller markets have better teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Because smaller markets have less cookies and donuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 i am not an overly large kessel fan but the guy takes way to much ****. He is easily top 10 best point producers in the NHL over the past what 5+ years all the guy wants is to be left alone and just play hockey, hes made it clear he doesn't want to be a leader and thats fine there a lots of people out there in regular work situations that dont want to be manager or whatever they just want to go in do their job to the best of their ability and go home....thats Phil IMO. He's also made some players a lot better Bozak comes to mind, i like bozak but he is nothing better then a decent 2nd line center but benefits from playing with Kessel. What leafs need is a true leader to take the pressure off kessel, if only Sundin was 10 years younger and playing with Kessel right now this would be completely different atmosphere. I dont think we would have any trouble trading kessel, i think we would have trouble getting back what we would lose in point production if we lost him I agree with most of what you said, but I think when you're the highest paid player on a team, and the leading scorer, you need to be more than just "one of the guys". Kessel wants the kind of anonymity that comes with being a 4th liner. It just doesn't work that way when you make the salary that Kessel makes. He can't continue to be invisible and survive in Toronto. The fans want someone with some personality. A player that enjoys the spotlight. A P.K. Subban would fit right in with Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 What about Captain Phaneuf's role in "salute gate" - or the other 18 players on the team, for that matter? All "career suicide" in Toronto, or just the American Kessel? From what I heard, Kessel and Phaneuf were behind it. I don't know the whole story, but that's a bad sign for the "core group" of this team. I think there's a greater than 50% chance that one of Kessel or Phaneuf is gone before the end of this season. I doubt the Leafs can move both, but the notion of blowing this thing up and starting over again isn't a bad idea at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabs1993 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 From what I heard, Kessel and Phaneuf were behind it. I don't know the whole story, but that's a bad sign for the "core group" of this team. I think there's a greater than 50% chance that one of Kessel or Phaneuf is gone before the end of this season. I doubt the Leafs can move both, but the notion of blowing this thing up and starting over again isn't a bad idea at this point. Starting over isn't a bad idea, but I don't think it happens until the end of the season. Shanahan is going to evaluate whether or not Carlyle was the problem (and for the record, he was part of the problem but with core issues starting with your captain, Randy wasn't the only issue) and assess the team at the end of it. I think what they'll find is that guys like Kessel and Phaneuf are not core material. Remember when this team thought that Kaberle was the future because he had a good little stretch? They put too much pressure on him and he was never that good of a player to begin with. At the end of the season, the Leafs are going to have to undo a ton of damage. They need character. Only a few guys on this team have it and it shows in their play. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Starting over isn't a bad idea, but I don't think it happens until the end of the season. Shanahan is going to evaluate whether or not Carlyle was the problem (and for the record, he was part of the problem but with core issues starting with your captain, Randy wasn't the only issue) and assess the team at the end of it. I think what they'll find is that guys like Kessel and Phaneuf are not core material. Remember when this team thought that Kaberle was the future because he had a good little stretch? They put too much pressure on him and he was never that good of a player to begin with. At the end of the season, the Leafs are going to have to undo a ton of damage. They need character. Only a few guys on this team have it and it shows in their play. Simple as that. Carlyle was brought in to teach a more defensive style of hockey versus Ron Wilson's run-and-gun style which had failed previously. In that respect, Carlyle never made the Leafs a better team defensively. Like you said, the core group isn't good enough. Phaneuf is a good but not great defenceman, and he doesn't have much help here in Toronto. Kessel is a great goal scorer, but he isn't a great player overall. ie: He doesn't match up to any of the other elite forwards in the NHL in terms of having an all-around game. (Being able to do more than just score goals.) Kessel at his best is just a "B" version of Ovechkin, with all of the same warts that Ovechkin has. Toronto needs a "Crosby", not an "Ovechkin". (Or to put it in Leafs terms: this team needs a player that is the second coming of Doug Gilmour or Mats Sundin.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I think the Leafs brass would flat out break out in hysterical laughter at the mere prospect of Kessel + for Kane. In the last 5 years, Kessel is a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL....give him up "plus" for Mr.5 goals.....LMFAO!!! If I'm Toronto, I want a guaranteed return ie top 10 point guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think the Leafs brass would flat out break out in hysterical laughter at the mere prospect of Kessel + for Kane. In the last 5 years, Kessel is a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL....give him up "plus" for Mr.5 goals.....LMFAO!!! If I'm Toronto, I want a guaranteed return ie top 10 point guy.Kane + Ehlers? Ehlers looks like he might be the next Kessel too lol. This let's Winnipeg just right to Prime Ehlers while the leafs take a step back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kane + Ehlers? Ehlers looks like he might be the next Kessel too lol. This let's Winnipeg just right to Prime Ehlers while the leafs take a step back Yes, that is much more like it, any combo of Ehlers and Kane, Petan and Kane, Morrissey and Kane, Trouba and Kane....they all get it done. The only problem is the Jets don't like players who stick to the perimeter like Kessel, so from my view a no go from the very start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yes, that is much more like it, any combo of Ehlers and Kane, Petan and Kane, Morrissey and Kane, Trouba and Kane....they all get it done. The only problem is the Jets don't like players who stick to the perimeter like Kessel, so from my view a no go from the very start.I don't find Kessel sticks to the perimeter. He usually glides and weaves in and out of scoring areas. The man is a beautiful skater for such an intentionally out of shape butterball I do find he avoids contact and grinding along the boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 @J0e Th0rnton He will float all over the ice, but the second it takes contact or effort, he is out of that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.