Who are we forgetting?

[ScottM]

 

By "we," I don't necessarily mean those of us on this forum, but hockey fans as a whole. We've had some good conversations about the history of the sport on here, and I think this could be a good one.

 

I'm going to float a few names to start it off. Fell free to discuss them or throw out.

 

Adam Oates: The fact that he scored less than 350 goals is probably why he's so often overlooked, but he's one of the best playmakers in the history of the game. He's one of only 12 players to amass at least a 1,000 assists. Plus, he made a great goal-scorer (Brett Hull) one of the greatest scorers of all time.

 

Ron Francis: I won't say much here because I just wrote the bio on him. I'll just mention that he's #2 all-time in assists.

 

Johnny Bucyk: It was far too recently that I learned about Johnny Bucyk. It was probably within the last 5 years when I started getting more interested in the history of hockey that I learned about him on my own. I guess 556 goals isn't enough to get people's attention when you play with Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr.

 

Joe Nieuwendyk: He's always been one of my favorite players. He didn't pile up massive numbers in any particular season, but he was very consistent for a very long time. Much more importantly though, he was always viewed as a strong leader. He was good on the ice, but he was great in the locker room.

 

Esa Tikkanen: It's hard not to be overlooked when you play on a line with the likes of Wayne Gretzky and Jarri Kurri, but Tikkanen was outstanding on defense. He also seemed to have a knack for taking things to another level in the playoffs.

 

Scott Stevens: I know what you're thinking: "Everyone knows about Stevens." True, but he never won the Norris Trophy. That stunning fact on its own earns him a mention here.

 

Mark Howe: Everyone knows his last name, but not because of him. He also never won a Norris, but was runner-up three times. He was an outstanding two-way defenseman and followed in Mr. Hockey's footsteps by being inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2011.

 

Larry Murphy: Just a little over a decade after his retirement, Murphy seems to be rarely mentioned now. He retired as the leader in games played by defensemen and was a member of four Stanley Cup champions. In fairness, he should be considered among the best ever at his position.

 

Gump Worsley: He lost. A lot. But then again, what goalie playing for the New York Rangers wouldn't lose a lot? But later in his career, he won. A lot. In fact, he won four Stanley Cups with the Montreal Canadiens in the 1960's. He finished his career with a 2.88 goals against average, which was quite good for the era during which he played.

 

Harry Lumley: Here's another guy that I learned about way too late in life. If you don't know what his goals against averages were in the 1953-54 and 54-55 seasons were, look them up -- they're stunningly low. Over the course of his career, he won 330 games, and yet is probably talked about as little as any 300 game winner.

[JackStraw]

I think Brad Park is the ultimate forgotten man. Probably would have had 4+ Norris Trophies if it wasn't for Bobby Orr. Instead he holds the record for most times finishing 2nd.

[ruxpin]

Worsley and Lumley (together they sound like workers compensation attorneys) I guess qualify for me as forgotten since they're before my time.

I suppose the others may qualify for those younger than I for the same reason, but for me they are hardly forgotten.

I'd be stunned to find a Flyers fan who doesn't remember Howe, whether they got to see him play or not.

I'm trying to come up with my own example, but if *i* remember them they're probably not all that forgotten.

Pete Peeters just popped into my mind for whatever reason.

[yave1964]

To me, a very good player on a great team often gets a little star effect and gets bumped up to be considered great while the opposite is true as well, a great player on a mediocre team gets forgotten or treated as only a good player. Some palyers, forgotten, who are better than they are remembered for, IMHO include:

 

Trevor Linden

Cujo

Kirk Muller

[JR Ewing]

Off the top of my head, for guys who are never mentioned these days:

 

 

This is Howie Morenz. He is one of the most dominant players in hockey history and the best offensive player of his era, and was the sport's first true superstar player. He won three Hart Trophies, but most fans would be hard pressed to know his name, let alone his photo, and it's not the fans' fault. The NHL is a funny league. They ignore the history that happened during the NHA days even though it was the same league with the same players, and had only re-formed because they were trying to rid themselves of Eddie Livingstone. And they mostly ignore anything from before the Original Six era (you know, when there more than 6 teams) so sometimes players like Morenz, who transcend the sport itself, are largely forgotten.

 

On January 28, 1937, Morenz suffered a terrible compound fracture of his leg when his skate became stuck in the end boards, and Chicago defenseman Earl Seibert tripped over and fell on him. The injury was career ending, but nobody knew it would lead to his death. A few weeks later, what is now thought be a blood clot killed him, though at the time, it was said he died of a broken heart after being told he would never play again.

 

 

When he died, the city of Montreal was pretty much shut down, with the Montreal Forum being filled to capacity for his public funeral, with thousands more lining the streets to get into the building. For those who remember Rocket Richard's public funeral, that is what you should have in mind for the send-off of Morenz.

 

[WingNut722]

Reminds me of those "Frozen in Time" vignettes the NHL Network used to air a couple years ago.

[ScottM]

@JackStraw Park is a perfect example.

 

@ruxpin Yeah, I know people would know some of the names I listed, but imo, they're just not given credit for being as good as they were.

 

@yave1964 Peter Stastny could be added as well when viewed through that prism (which is a good one). I think most people would be stunned to learn that he was the #2 scorer of the 1980's.

 

@JR Ewing I agree. It does seem like the NHL would rather forget the pre-original six era. It even seems like it goes as far as that they're ashamed of it. To me though, that attitude is the shame.

[JagerMeister]

 

By "we," I don't necessarily mean those of us on this forum, but hockey fans as a whole. We've had some good conversations about the history of the sport on here, and I think this could be a good one.

 

I'm going to float a few names to start it off. Fell free to discuss them or throw out.

 

Adam Oates: The fact that he scored less than 350 goals is probably why he's so often overlooked, but he's one of the best playmakers in the history of the game. He's one of only 12 players to amass at least a 1,000 assists. Plus, he made a great goal-scorer (Brett Hull) one of the greatest scorers of all time.

 

Ron Francis: I won't say much here because I just wrote the bio on him. I'll just mention that he's #2 all-time in assists.

 

Johnny Bucyk: It was far too recently that I learned about Johnny Bucyk. It was probably within the last 5 years when I started getting more interested in the history of hockey that I learned about him on my own. I guess 556 goals isn't enough to get people's attention when you play with Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr.

 

Joe Nieuwendyk: He's always been one of my favorite players. He didn't pile up massive numbers in any particular season, but he was very consistent for a very long time. Much more importantly though, he was always viewed as a strong leader. He was good on the ice, but he was great in the locker room.

 

Esa Tikkanen: It's hard not to be overlooked when you play on a line with the likes of Wayne Gretzky and Jarri Kurri, but Tikkanen was outstanding on defense. He also seemed to have a knack for taking things to another level in the playoffs.

 

Scott Stevens: I know what you're thinking: "Everyone knows about Stevens." True, but he never won the Norris Trophy. That stunning fact on its own earns him a mention here.

 

Mark Howe: Everyone knows his last name, but not because of him. He also never won a Norris, but was runner-up three times. He was an outstanding two-way defenseman and followed in Mr. Hockey's footsteps by being inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2011.

 

Larry Murphy: Just a little over a decade after his retirement, Murphy seems to be rarely mentioned now. He retired as the leader in games played by defensemen and was a member of four Stanley Cup champions. In fairness, he should be considered among the best ever at his position.

 

Gump Worsley: He lost. A lot. But then again, what goalie playing for the New York Rangers wouldn't lose a lot? But later in his career, he won. A lot. In fact, he won four Stanley Cups with the Montreal Canadiens in the 1960's. He finished his career with a 2.88 goals against average, which was quite good for the era during which he played.

 

Harry Lumley: Here's another guy that I learned about way too late in life. If you don't know what his goals against averages were in the 1953-54 and 54-55 seasons were, look them up -- they're stunningly low. Over the course of his career, he won 330 games, and yet is probably talked about as little as any 300 game winner.

Ok on joe Nieuwendyk....This guy, should not be in the HHOF. Probably one of the worst inductions of all time. There are even better players that played in the same era (Mogilny, Fleury, Kariya) that aren't in the HHOF but somehow this guy gets it? Sure, he won a conn smythe, but alot of players you wouldn't consider "superstars" have won conn smythe trophies, It is easier to maintain a good ppg in a small amount of games. for example, alot of players have good starts in the regular season, its kind of like that.

 

But anyways, i think George Hainsworth deserves a mention. He has the second lowest GAA in NHL history AND maintains the record for most shutouts. 22 shutouts in 44 games to be exact.

 

Another one is Joe Malone, even when people talk about the pre- original six era players, i rarely see his name get mentioned. 

Yet he is the fastest player to score 100 goals(60) games.As well as being the player who has the highest GPG average (2.20) , having the most goals in one game (7) as well as being the player with the best GPG (1.13)

 

Off the top of my head, for guys who are never mentioned these days:

 

 

This is Howie Morenz. He is one of the most dominant players in hockey history and the best offensive player of his era, and was the sport's first true superstar player. He won three Hart Trophies, but most fans would be hard pressed to know his name, let alone his photo, and it's not the fans' fault. The NHL is a funny league. They ignore the history that happened during the NHA days even though it was the same league with the same players, and had only re-formed because they were trying to rid themselves of Eddie Livingstone. And they mostly ignore anything from before the Original Six era (you know, when there more than 6 teams) so sometimes players like Morenz, who transcend the sport itself, are largely forgotten.

 

On January 28, 1937, Morenz suffered a terrible compound fracture of his leg when his skate became stuck in the end boards, and Chicago defenseman Earl Seibert tripped over and fell on him. The injury was career ending, but nobody knew it would lead to his death. A few weeks later, what is now thought be a blood clot killed him, though at the time, it was said he died of a broken heart after being told he would never play again.

 

 

When he died, the city of Montreal was pretty much shut down, with the Montreal Forum being filled to capacity for his public funeral, with thousands more lining the streets to get into the building. For those who remember Rocket Richard's public funeral, that is what you should have in mind for the send-off of Morenz.

 

He was basically the Gretzky of his era

[ScottM]

Ok on joe Nieuwendyk....This guy, should not be in the HHOF. Probably one of the worst inductions of all time. There are even better players that played in the same era (Mogilny, Fleury, Kariya) that aren't in the HHOF but somehow this guy gets it? Sure, he won a conn smythe, but alot of players you wouldn't consider "superstars" have won conn smythe trophies, It is easier to maintain a good ppg in a small amount of games. for example, alot of players have good starts in the regular season, its kind of like that.

 

But anyways, i think George Hainsworth deserves a mention. He has the second lowest GAA in NHL history AND maintains the record for most shutouts. 22 shutouts in 44 games to be exact.

 

Another one is Joe Malone, even when people talk about the pre- original six era players, i rarely see his name get mentioned. 

Yet he is the fastest player to score 100 goals(60) games.As well as being the player who has the highest GPG average (2.20) , having the most goals in one game (7) as well as being the player with the best GPG (1.13)

 

I'll go a little deeper into Nieuwendyk. First, 1,257 games isn't a small number of games. Only 80 players in history have reached 1,250 games, so that's not an easy plateau to hit. Plus, longevity isn't a necessity to be considered great, though it does help. The man I consider to be the greatest in the history of the game, Bobby Orr, only played 657 games. Mike Bossy played only 752. But Nieuwendyk, who played in front of the net on the power play and took a lot of physical punishment as a result broke the 1,250 game mark and lasted for 20 seasons. That durability is impressive. As for the guys you mentioned in comparison, sure they were better offensively, but you weren't going to get anywhere near the level of defensive performance from them that you would from Nieuwendyk. Nieuwendyk was also well known for his faceoff prowess. I'd always have room for a guy like that on my team. But again, the biggest reason, in my opinion, of why Joe is so underrated is his leadership. In the words of Lou Lamoriello, "Certainly (the tangibles were) the quality player he was even at that time, how good he was defensively as well as always finding a way to get big goals. It was also about how good he was on faceoffs. And the intangibles, which are really more tangible than anything, are what he brought in the locker room from leadership and unselfishness. It was obvious that when he didn't play he was still so active in his support. He's genuine in every sense of the word. He was a true team player."

 

As for Hainsworth and Malone, I agree 100%. I think Malone was the first player I featured in one of my biographies, and I said that there. The fact that he's nearly universally overlooked is a travesty.

[JagerMeister]

I'll go a little deeper into Nieuwendyk. First, 1,257 games isn't a small number of games. Only 80 players in history have reached 1,250 games, so that's not an easy plateau to hit. Plus, longevity isn't a necessity to be considered great, though it does help. The man I consider to be the greatest in the history of the game, Bobby Orr, only played 657 games. Mike Bossy played only 752. But Nieuwendyk, who played in front of the net on the power play and took a lot of physical punishment as a result broke the 1,250 game mark and lasted for 20 seasons. That durability is impressive. As for the guys you mentioned in comparison, sure they were better offensively, but you weren't going to get anywhere near the level of defensive performance from them that you would from Nieuwendyk. Nieuwendyk was also well known for his faceoff prowess. I'd always have room for a guy like that on my team. But again, the biggest reason, in my opinion, of why Joe is so underrated is his leadership. In the words of Lou Lamoriello, "Certainly (the tangibles were) the quality player he was even at that time, how good he was defensively as well as always finding a way to get big goals. It was also about how good he was on faceoffs. And the intangibles, which are really more tangible than anything, are what he brought in the locker room from leadership and unselfishness. It was obvious that when he didn't play he was still so active in his support. He's genuine in every sense of the word. He was a true team player."

 

As for Hainsworth and Malone, I agree 100%. I think Malone was the first player I featured in one of my biographies, and I said that there. The fact that he's nearly universally overlooked is a travesty.

Ok, so i cant really have a say in how he played since i did not watch him. That being said, Mogilny was also a decent defensive player, im not trying to say you are wrong, but why is it that the one time Joe was nominated, he was 49th in voting? and other than that, he never got a vote at all? Perhaps it was because he was overlooked?

[ScottM]

Ok, so i cant really have a say in how he played since i did not watch him. That being said, Mogilny was also a decent defensive player, im not trying to say you are wrong, but why is it that the one time Joe was nominated, he was 49th in voting? and other than that, he never got a vote at all? Perhaps it was because he was overlooked?

 

Just for the record, I'm not discounting those guys or your opinion. I just think that Nieuwendyk was one of the most complete players the game has seen. As for the Selke voting, you've got me. That makes no sense whatsoever, but then again, that's not unusual for the voters. Lol. The fact that so many that dealt with him first hand held him in such high esteem both on and off the ice speaks volumes to me.

[JagerMeister]

Just for the record, I'm not discounting those guys or your opinion. I just think that Nieuwendyk was one of the most complete players the game has seen. As for the Selke voting, you've got me. That makes no sense whatsoever, but then again, that's not unusual for the voters. Lol. The fact that so many that dealt with him first hand held him in such high esteem both on and off the ice speaks volumes to me.

yea with selke voting, idk either. Hell, Ovechkin  got more votes in more seasons than Joe, lol. Unless physicality=defense then lindros would be the greatest two way player of all time by that logic...

[ScottM]

yea with selke voting, idk either. Hell, Ovechkin  got more votes in more seasons than Joe, lol. Unless physicality=defense then lindros would be the greatest two way player of all time by that logic...

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with Ovie. He's big, physical, and a superstar. That's enough to get the attention of a lazy voter.

[JagerMeister]

I think you hit the nail on the head with Ovie. He's big, physical, and a superstar. That's enough to get the attention of a lazy voter.

Who the hell are these voters anyways...what makes them so special to vote... Seriously, i would rather have players vote for other players but themselves when it comes to trophies... 

 

hopefully not the same "hockey writers" who think Jagr is the third best forward

[jammer2]

@ScottM  I think JR hit the nail on the head with Morenz...also...the Bruins Kraut line had some amazing skill and talent, but you never hear them mentioned these days.

[ScottM]

@JagerMeister I think that ties in well to our discussion of who does and doesn't win the Hart Trophy in today's league as well. The voters often seem to be poorly informed, imho.

 

@jammer2 He did. That also brings Aurele Joliat to my mind. It makes me wonder how many of those pre-original six era guys I still don't know about, Btw, kudos to the Kraut line for their military service as well.

[JR Ewing]

 

This is Sprague Cleghorn. He was a magnificent puck rushing defenseman, a malevolent force on the ice, and a much better hockey player than he was a human being. His violent and psychopathic tendencies are legendary, especially after he was traded from Ottawa to Montreal. He made it his life's goal to make the lives of his ex-teammates a misery. He broke his leg prior to the 1918 season, and ended up being arrested after assaulting his wife with his crutches. In 1923, he went after the Sens' Lionel Hitchman and bashed his face so badly that he nearly incited a riot. For that one, Cleghorn was fined $200... By his own team. The next year he followed that up by going after Hitchman again, butt-ending him in the eye, and later took out Buck Boucher's knees. One time he beat the hell out of Newsy LaLonde (a tough guy himself) so badly, and continued to pummel LaLonde after he was out cold and lying on the ice, almost causing another riot. His career was dotted by cross-checks to the head and face, spearings, kneeings, butt-ends, running opponent's faces into the boards, as well as administering some of the worst beatings in the league, which is saying something for hockey in the 1920s. Along the way, Cleghorn may have even purposely cut Boucher's face with his skates.

 

But, he could play. Oh my God, he could play. When he retired, he had scored more goals than any defenseman other than Harry Cameron, and finished 2nd in Hart voting twice, even though the Hart wasn't awarded until he was 33, and out of his prime.

 

Oh. And:

 

[ScottM]

Yeah, that's a guy I wasn't familiar with. Wow... I just don't know what else to say to that...

[JR Ewing]

Yeah, that's a guy I wasn't familiar with. Wow... I just don't know what else to say to that...

 

His little brother, Odie, was a good player, though wasn't a star player like Sprague. They kept an eye out for each other, and if you did one of them wrong on the ice, the other would look for amends against that guy (or the nearest convenient target) the next time they were on the ice. The two were both very skilled, but responsible for tons of mayhem during their careers.

 

Interesting tidbit of trivia: Sprague Cleghorn was killed when he was run over by a car at 66 years of age (seniors still disproportionately are killed by cars more than any other group) and Odie died in his sleep the morning of Sprague's funeral.

[flyercanuck]

 

This is Sprague Cleghorn. He was a magnificent puck rushing defenseman, a malevolent force on the ice, and a much better hockey player than he was a human being. His violent and psychopathic tendencies are legendary, especially after he was traded from Ottawa to Montreal. He made it his life's goal to make the lives of his ex-teammates a misery. He broke his leg prior to the 1918 season, and ended up being arrested after assaulting his wife with his crutches. In 1923, he went after the Sens' Lionel Hitchman and bashed his face so badly that he nearly incited a riot. For that one, Cleghorn was fined $200... By his own team. The next year he followed that up by going after Hitchman again, butt-ending him in the eye, and later took out Buck Boucher's knees. One time he beat the hell out of Newsy LaLonde (a tough guy himself) so badly, and continued to pummel LaLonde after he was out cold and lying on the ice, almost causing another riot. His career was dotted by cross-checks to the head and face, spearings, kneeings, butt-ends, running opponent's faces into the boards, as well as administering some of the worst beatings in the league, which is saying something for hockey in the 1920s. Along the way, Cleghorn may have even purposely cut Boucher's face with his skates.

 

But, he could play. Oh my God, he could play. When he retired, he had scored more goals than any defenseman other than Harry Cameron, and finished 2nd in Hart voting twice, even though the Hart wasn't awarded until he was 33, and out of his prime.

 

Oh. And:

 

 

 

One of the greatest alltime names in professional sports.

[yave1964]

Okay guys if we are going to use the way back machine:

Sid 'Bootnose' Abel.

Toe Blake, as a player.

[ScottM]

Another wayback machine entry: Clint Benedict.

 

He's almost never mentioned today despite the fact that he revolutionized the way the goaltender position is played. He had a habit of "accidentally" falling down to make saves when goalies weren't allowed to leave their feet. That earned him the nickname "Praying Benny," and leading to a change in the rule. Unknown to many, he was the first goalie to wear facial protection, not Jacques Plantes. Benedict led the NHL in goals against average six times, including five of the league's first six seasons.

[JagerMeister]

Another wayback machine entry: Clint Benedict.

He's almost never mentioned today despite the fact that he revolutionized the way the goaltender position is played. He had a habit of "accidentally" falling down to make saves when goalies weren't allowed to leave their feet. That earned him the nickname "Praying Benny," and leading to a change in the rule. Unknown to many, he was the first goalie to wear facial protection, not Jacques Plantes. Benedict led the NHL in goals against average six times, including five of the league's first six seasons.

haha nice profile pic you got there scott

[JagerMeister]

This is Sprague Cleghorn. He was a magnificent puck rushing defenseman, a malevolent force on the ice, and a much better hockey player than he was a human being. His violent and psychopathic tendencies are legendary, especially after he was traded from Ottawa to Montreal. He made it his life's goal to make the lives of his ex-teammates a misery. He broke his leg prior to the 1918 season, and ended up being arrested after assaulting his wife with his crutches. In 1923, he went after the Sens' Lionel Hitchman and bashed his face so badly that he nearly incited a riot. For that one, Cleghorn was fined $200... By his own team. The next year he followed that up by going after Hitchman again, butt-ending him in the eye, and later took out Buck Boucher's knees. One time he beat the hell out of Newsy LaLonde (a tough guy himself) so badly, and continued to pummel LaLonde after he was out cold and lying on the ice, almost causing another riot. His career was dotted by cross-checks to the head and face, spearings, kneeings, butt-ends, running opponent's faces into the boards, as well as administering some of the worst beatings in the league, which is saying something for hockey in the 1920s. Along the way, Cleghorn may have even purposely cut Boucher's face with his skates.

But, he could play. Oh my God, he could play. When he retired, he had scored more goals than any defenseman other than Harry Cameron, and finished 2nd in Hart voting twice, even though the Hart wasn't awarded until he was 33, and out of his prime.

Oh. And:

judging by the information you showed us. He was one bad psychopathic ************. Even though he was a great player. Just based on his reputation, i would have to think for quite a while before deciding to put him I the HHOF.

[JR Ewing]

judging by the information you showed us. He was one bad psychopathic ************. Even though he was a great player. Just based on his reputation, i would have to think for quite a while before deciding to put him I the HHOF.

 

Putting his personal life aside, you have to remember an important thing: his on-ice behaviour was extreme, but he was hardly alone in it. The 1920s was a stupendously violent era of hockey, and things like what I describe above weren't that far outside the realm of normal in those days. Most guys didn't quite have his catalogue of infractions, but plenty were in the ballpark.