Grading the Timonen trade

[Polaris922]

I certainly don't think you were trying to "do nothing but hammer Timonen"

I just don't think you would have created the thread about any other player in a similar situation.

Chris Stewart to the Wild for a 2nd, for example.

Zidlicky to Detroit for a 3rd and conditional 5th.

Leopold to the Wild for a player and a pick.

Cole and a conditional 3rd for two players and a 2nd.

Glencross to the Caps for a 2nd and 3rd.

Fleischmann for Heatly and a 3rd.

Jagr to Florida for a 2nd and conditional 3rd.

Sekera for a player and a 1st.

What was it, do you think, about the Timonen deal that captured your attention?

That its the only trade on that entire list we had discussed and debated at length at the time it happened? That the mostly Flyers fan base here also debated Hextall's moves since becoming GM? That it's perhaps the only trade that was disagreed upon enough to warrant a revisit, and now was a good time to do it as the regular season is closing and he's injured? And that it could be revisited when the season ends for the Hawks to evaluate was he worth that much? That posting in the forums is to spark conversation and discussion of hockey related topics and that works best when people a actually give a **** about the topic?

[B21]

@radoran

@Polaris922

 

I just don't think you would have created the thread about any other player in a similar situation.

 

If I may...

 

Chris Stewart – 61 GP / 11 G 14 A / AGE 27 / Cost less than Timonen…

Marek Zidlicky – 63 GP / 4 G / 19A / AGE 38 / Cost less than Timonen…

Tomas Fleischmann – 52 GP / 7 G  /14 A / AGE 30

Jordan Leopold – 25 GP / 1 G / 2A / AGE 34 / Cost less than Timonen…

Curtis Glencross – 53 GP / 9 G / 19 A / AGE 32

Jaromir Jagr - 57 GP / 11 G / 18 A / AGE 43

Andrej Sekera - 57 GP / 2 G / 19 A / AGE 28

Erik Cole – 57 GP / 18 G / 15 A / AGE 36

Kimmo Timonen – 0 GP / 0 G / 0 A / AGE 40

 

All stats as of the trade deadline.  

 

Not exactly similar.   

[jammer2]

  Another factor, is Kimo is without a cup, and this is his last chance at accomplishing that goal. I don't think that is the sole reason this trade was pulled off, but I do believe there was a "thanks for the service and go get that Cup" kinda thinking involved from a Flyers perspective. Bottom line, Kimo is a proven playoff performer and the Hawks are a proven playoff team....so *if* Kimo is healthy, this should be a good match-up. A lot of teams have paid much more than a 2nd rounder to provide depth and experience in the war of attrition known as the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

[Polaris922]

Another factor, is Kimo is without a cup, and this is his last chance at accomplishing that goal. I don't think that is the sole reason this trade was pulled off, but I do believe there was a "thanks for the service and go get that Cup" kinda thinking involved from a Flyers perspective. Bottom line, Kimo is a proven playoff performer and the Hawks are a proven playoff team....so *if* Kimo is healthy, this should be a good match-up. A lot of teams have paid much more than a 2nd rounder to provide depth and experience in the war of attrition known as the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

That's a question I asked... Is Chicago repaying some favor to Philly or Philly asked for one for future considerations? They way overpaid without a doubt, but I'm sure they expected more than he's been doing.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  The GM's are long gone on both teams...but if there was *ever* an we owe you one...it was the Sharp deal.

[Podein25]

That's a question I asked... Is Chicago repaying some favor to Philly or Philly asked for one for future considerations? They way overpaid without a doubt, but I'm sure they expected more than he's been doing.

 

What did this poor dead horse do to deserve this constant beating? 

[Polaris922]

What did this poor dead horse do to deserve this constant beating?

It would've been rude to ignore Jammer! And some if us like the hockey discussion without jerseys making a difference in value of opinion oh wise sheep master. *bows in humility*

[AJgoal]

So is it safe now to give the Hawks an A?

[radoran]

So is it safe now to give the Hawks an A?

 

No way, dude. Flyers totally won that trade.

 

Just like they won the Richards trade.

 

And the Williams trade.

 

And the Brind'amour trade.

 

The only question is whether they will add this trade to the "won trades" banner hanging at the Big Bank Building.

 

[mojo1917]

hawks win, and no shits are given about the second round picks for timonen...none, not today not in 2 years...win/win. 

and it's a nice capstone to a fine / borderline hof career.

made me smile to see him skate the cup.

[B21]

So is it safe now to give the Hawks an A?

 

Nope.  They win that Cup w/o Timonen.  No points. Less than 9:00 per game and a couple of healthy scratches.

 

Great for him that he wins one; absolutely the best way to end a career.

 

If you want a trade that actually made a difference for them, look no further than the Vermette deal.

[flyercanuck]

Win -win trade (yes they actually happen) The Hawks won a cup, the Flyers get 2 good picks, Timonen gets a great exclamation point on a great career. 

[B21]

Win -win trade (yes they actually happen) The Hawks won a cup, the Flyers get 2 good picks, Timonen gets a great exclamation point on a great career. 

 

It's not win-win if you give up a pair of 2nd rounds picks that you didn't have to.  Even mores so for the Hawks who have (and need to continue to) find talent in the later rounds to compliment the core that now includes the biggest 1-2 cap hit in the NHL.

 

Aaaaaaaagain. Good for Timo...but they win the Cup without him so that two wasted 2nd picks for a team that has to value them more than any other at this point.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

As a Flyer fan, if Philly traded 2-2nds for a player and we win the cup, I don't care who the player is or what he did...the object of all trades, drafts, FA signings is to win a cup. Mission accomplished.

[radoran]

the Flyers get 2 good picks

 

two wasted 2nd picks for a team that has to value them more than any other at this point.

 

Let's not go too too far overboard on the "good picks" - they will be late late late second rounders even next year.

 

Looking at bottom 5 second round picks over the period 2001-2011, player who have played any significant time (100+ games):

*Tomas Tatar*, Jimmy Hayes, Nick Spaling, *Wayne Simmonds*, Jamie McBain, Jesse Joensuu, *Alex Goligoski*, *David Krecji*, Jimmy Howard, Jean-Francois Jacques, *Johnny Boychuk*, *Tomas Fleischmann*, Peter Budaj

 

OK, so over the course of 50 picks I see five maybe six guys that would be "losses"

 

So, do you take a 1-in-10 chance on getting a good player in a few years, or do you take a shot at your third Cup in six years and go home not worrying at all?

 

I lean toward the latter. Of course, I am a fan of a team who gives away second round picks as door prizes at the GM Annual Meeting so my view is somewhat skewed

 

In the end, Chicago gave up two picks that nine times out of ten mean next-to-nothing and they won a Cup.

 

As for Kimmo's "contribution" - the Blackhawks captain went out of his way to give Timonen the Cup first. That says more to me about what the Blackhawks thought of Timonen's contribution than any sour grapes on a message board will.

[B21]

@B21

 

As a Flyer fan, if Philly traded 2-2nds for a player and we win the cup, I don't care who the player is or what he did...the object of all trades, drafts, FA signings is to win a cup. Mission accomplished.

 

That's the easy answer.  I prefer to drill down a little more.  

 

If the Hawks had given up two 2nd round picks for a guy who was injured the day after the trade and never played a game for them yet they still won the Cup - did they really win that trade? No.

 

Sure - as a Hawks fan you aren't ticked about it.  But it's still a trade they lost as it simply did not help them.

[B21]

Let's not go too too far overboard on the "good picks" - they will be late late late second rounders even next year.

 

 

Remember - FC is Mr. Second Round Pick (which I agree with to a point).  And this is the Hawks who 1) need these picks more than most teams due to their top heavy roster construction and 2) have a history better than most at finding NHLers in the 2nd round.  Reasonable to argue that a 2nd round pick is worth more to a team that is better at uncovering talent there.

 

 

 

As for Kimmo's "contribution" - the Blackhawks captain went out of his way to give Timonen the Cup first. That says more to me about what the Blackhawks thought of Timonen's contribution than any sour grapes on a message board will.

 

Very classy move...but that's it. Barking up the wrong tree with "sour grapes".  I love when veterans like Timonen are successful in that "one last crack" at the Cup.  Doesn't mean they wouldn't have won it without him.  

 

They would have.

 

If Timonen was a scratch, Toews does the exact....same....thing.

[AJgoal]

Why don't you ask Teravainen if it helped him? Timonen was brought in, fairly specifically, to be a mentor and help Teravainen improve:

 

"That is something (Blackhawks general manager) Stan Bowman and I discussed when the trade was completed," said Markus Lehto, the Chicago-based agent for both players.

 

"He asked me, 'Is Kimmo the kind of a guy that can even help Teuvo?' And I said, 'You cannot find a better Finnish hockey player for a person who would be kind of a mentor and a buddy to deal with Teravainen.'

 

Which apparently worked:

 

One of Teravainen's best friends on the team is defenseman Kimmo Timonen, a fellow Finn who has helped mentor Teravainen since Timonen arrived in a trade with the Flyers in February. The 40-year-old Timonen has been a source of advice and someone who can relate to Teravainen.

 

"(He has) a lot of experience; it's great to have him here,"

 

 

.26 ppg in the regular season

.56 ppg in the playoffs, including the GTG and setting up the GWG in game one of the Finals.

 

I'd say that if Timonen helped Teravainen, he helped the Hawks, no? Not just to the Cup, but for that future that the picks are so important for. Sometimes, the on ice stuff is a small part of what a player brings a team.

[B21]

Why don't you ask Teravainen if it helped him? Timonen was brought in, fairly specifically, to be a mentor and help Teravainen improve:

 

"That is something (Blackhawks general manager) Stan Bowman and I discussed when the trade was completed," said Markus Lehto, the Chicago-based agent for both players.

 

"He asked me, 'Is Kimmo the kind of a guy that can even help Teuvo?' And I said, 'You cannot find a better Finnish hockey player for a person who would be kind of a mentor and a buddy to deal with Teravainen.'

 

Which apparently worked:

 

One of Teravainen's best friends on the team is defenseman Kimmo Timonen, a fellow Finn who has helped mentor Teravainen since Timonen arrived in a trade with the Flyers in February. The 40-year-old Timonen has been a source of advice and someone who can relate to Teravainen.

 

"(He has) a lot of experience; it's great to have him here,"

 

 

.26 ppg in the regular season

.56 ppg in the playoffs, including the GTG and setting up the GWG in game one of the Finals.

 

I'd say that if Timonen helped Teravainen, he helped the Hawks, no? Not just to the Cup, but for that future that the picks are so important for. Sometimes, the on ice stuff is a small part of what a player brings a team.

 

Fair....but Teravainen was doing just fine before the trade.  And you don't give up two 2nd round picks for a "mentor".  Couple of 4ths? Sure - I'd do that in a heartbeat.

 

I'm on board with the rationale - just not the asking price.

[Podein25]

 They win that Cup w/o Timonen

 

 

You simply don't know that for certain. You don't.

 

Your view that players can only have an impact purely by what they do on the ice is contradicted by what was on the screen last night - @radoran notes one obvious, telling example, but there were many others. Repeated hugs between all the core and Timonen. Keith, Toews, Kane, Seabrook, Hossa etc.

 

That's real, genuine appreciation for what a guy like Timonen brings to the rink everyday and you have zero appreciation for it. You'd make a helluva team mate I guess...

[flyercanuck]

Let's not go too too far overboard on the "good picks" - they will be late late late second rounders even next year.

 

Looking at bottom 5 second round picks over the period 2001-2011, player who have played any significant time (100+ games):

*Tomas Tatar*, Jimmy Hayes, Nick Spaling, *Wayne Simmonds*, Jamie McBain, Jesse Joensuu, *Alex Goligoski*, *David Krecji*, Jimmy Howard, Jean-Francois Jacques, *Johnny Boychuk*, *Tomas Fleischmann*, Peter Budaj

 

OK, so over the course of 50 picks I see five maybe six guys that would be "losses"

 

So, do you take a 1-in-10 chance on getting a good player in a few years, or do you take a shot at your third Cup in six years and go home not worrying at all?

 

I lean toward the latter. Of course, I am a fan of a team who gives away second round picks as door prizes at the GM Annual Meeting so my view is somewhat skewed

 

In the end, Chicago gave up two picks that nine times out of ten mean next-to-nothing and they won a Cup.

 

As for Kimmo's "contribution" - the Blackhawks captain went out of his way to give Timonen the Cup first. That says more to me about what the Blackhawks thought of Timonen's contribution than any sour grapes on a message board will.

 

I hardly think I went overboard on the picks. If Chicago had given up 2-1sts, I'd say we got 2 great picks. If they'd given up 2-7ths, I'd say we got two lousy picks. I think 2nd rounders qualify as "good", especially when one is in this draft which should have some quality into the 2nd and maybe 3rd rounds. I'm also taking into consideration Timonens age, the fact he'd been out all year and that this was his last year.

 

I couldn't have asked for a better return, at least not seriously.

[flyercanuck]

That's the easy answer.  I prefer to drill down a little more.  

 

If the Hawks had given up two 2nd round picks for a guy who was injured the day after the trade and never played a game for them yet they still won the Cup - did they really win that trade? No.

 

Sure - as a Hawks fan you aren't ticked about it.  But it's still a trade they lost as it simply did not help them.

 

Well, since you started, I decided to build a mine shaft to the centre of the earth...maybe Timonens Veteran savy was very helpful in the lockerroom, without which the Hawks would never have made it into the playoffs. 

[JackStraw]

Very classy move...but that's it. Barking up the wrong tree with "sour grapes".  I love when veterans like Timonen are successful in that "one last crack" at the Cup.  Doesn't mean they wouldn't have won it without him.  
 
They would have.

 

Maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn't have. Given how close all of the games were there's no way to know for sure. They needed depth on the blue line, that's what he was acquired to provide. He was scratched the first three games of the finals, the Hawks were 1-2 in those games. He played the final three games, and the Hawks won them all. He did what they needed him to do, provide steady smart play in the defensive zone in a limited role. They could have scratched him in any of the final three games and played someone else, but they didn't. I doubt it was for sentimental reasons.

[B21]

You simply don't know that for certain. You don't.

 

Your view that players can only have an impact purely by what they do on the ice is contradicted by what was on the screen last night - @radoran notes one obvious, telling example, but there were many others. Repeated hugs between all the core and Timonen. Keith, Toews, Kane, Seabrook, Hossa etc.

 

That's real, genuine appreciation for what a guy like Timonen brings to the rink everyday and you have zero appreciation for it. You'd make a helluva team mate I guess...

 

Neither do you.  But my opinion at least has a tangible element to it.  Look at the guy's minutes (or lack there of).  Look how slow he looked.  He was a healthy scratch in the Cup Finals!

 

Toews, Kane, Keith & Co. showing their appreciation was just that.  You and a few others want to read into that as "proof" the guy made a difference.  I take it for what it is which is an incredibly classy gesture on their part.

 

I'm not even arguing what a player like Timonen brings off the ice either. I never have.  All I have said all along is this: If you are the Hawks with leadership out the wazoo with guys like Toews and Keith and a coach like Queneville, do you really need to give up a pair of 2nd round picks for everything Timonen brings?

 

The answer is no.  

 

I'll get the love but the incessant need by you and others to justify the two picks is now bordering on madness.  They guy was not worth the picks at this stage of his career. Certainly not on the ice.  And the Hawks might be the last team in the league that needed what he brings off the ice.

[B21]

Well, since you started, I decided to build a mine shaft to the centre of the earth...maybe Timonens Veteran savy was very helpful in the lockerroom, without which the Hawks would never have made it into the playoffs. 

 

So are you saying that Duncan Keith and Captain Jesus fall short in the leadership department?   Otherwise, why the need to add Patton Eisenhower George Washington Timonen to the roster at the expense of two much needed picks?

 

I mean if you have the best player in the world who also happens to be the best captain in the league - why waste the picks?