c/should VLC take signing bonus July 1 and void contract?

[Mad Dog]

To not end his career on the bench, still traveling with the team, away from family but not playing.  To try to be relevant at least 1 more time, not just rotting away on the team plane, practicing with goons, etc.  Because if he refuses to travel with the team and practice the Flyers could terminate his contract.

 

Undedrstood and agreed.  But much - if not everything - comes down to whether all these things are more important to him than making money.  Like I said, there is no such a thing as too much cash, no matter who the person in question is.  Professional athletes in particular have a very short window to make money.  Yes, he can get that bonus and run away.  Or he can just continue cahsing the check through the end of his contract... Again, all depends on how much all these issues and his role really matter to him.

[King Knut]

"It hasn't worked for Vinny, and it hasn't worked for us, and at this point, it's safe to say I'm not convinced it changes anything," Hextall said.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/flyers/Flyers-sign-D-man-from-KHL.html#2xv6zv14ROqEDyoT.99

 

Wonder what that means.  Hextall's talking like he's holding some cards that we don't know about.  But I can't imagine what cards he's holding.

Unless he's trying to put the pressure on Vinny and his Agent to find a new home for the guy where he can have what he wants.

 

I still think it's short sighted on Hextall's part.  Berube really screwed the team with his usage of Vinny.  There are ways to make a guy like Vinny put up numbers even if he's lost a major step.

yes, those ways usually cost you in the long run on the other side of the puck, but with Berube's team playing defense the way it was (idiotically) I'm not sure it would have mattered if Vinny wasn't trying to play responsibly defensively and if he'd been putting up some numbers someone might have traded for him.

 

I hate to agree with a squeaky wheel, but I think Hextall's off here.  Berube and his usage of Vinny really was a problem, not just for Vinny's pride, but more importantly for the team's success and for the sake of Hextall's ability to unload that dead albatross of a contract.

 

Hextall probably knows this.  I think the situation with Vinny and Berube's lack of commitment to getting him scoring was a major factor in deciding to can Chief (one of many).  My guess is that Hextall is playing hard ball with VLC now because who the hell wants to deal with a prick agent talking smack before the season is over and who the hell wants to even have to try to put lipstick on that pig at this point.  if you can get a deal for him without trying to make him look like a better player with more left in the tank, then do it.  Otherwise, the first 4 months of next season need to be devoted to making Vinny, Umby and Mac look way better than they did last year.

 

It should have been the focus of the first four months of last season too, but Chief and Hextall were not on the same damn page about that and instead we got a crappy year, no playoffs and three incredibly overpaid unproductive players being used inappropriately. 

[King Knut]

2. Stay with the Flyers and play into a system similar to Berube's.

 

 

Sweet freakn' lord please tell me Hakstol's system will be NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING like Berube's pathetic attempt at a system.

Just tell me now so I can find a new team to follow and be done with it because I can't handle another pathetic year of completely embarrassing incompetence behind the bench and in the game plan. 

 

This team HAS to be different.  Why can Chief if you're just going to hire a different guy to make the players look like complete idiots out there all year again?

[JJMason33]

Undedrstood and agreed. But much - if not everything - comes down to whether all these things are more important to him than making money. Like I said, there is no such a thing as too much cash, no matter who the person in question is. Professional athletes in particular have a very short window to make money. Yes, he can get that bonus and run away. Or he can just continue cahsing the check through the end of his contract... Again, all depends on how much all these issues and his role really matter to him.

The fact Vinny came out and said at the end of season if berube stays he doesn't want to tells me that his role and reputation do matter. Or else he would be fine being the veteran benchwarmer without any fuss.

[JJMason33]

I still think it's short sighted on Hextall's part. Berube really screwed the team with his usage of Vinny. There are ways to make a guy like Vinny put up numbers even if he's lost a major step.

yes, those ways usually cost you in the long run on the other side of the puck, but with Berube's team playing defense the way it was (idiotically) I'm not sure it would have mattered if Vinny wasn't trying to play responsibly defensively and if he'd been putting up some numbers someone might have traded for him.

I hate to agree with a squeaky wheel, but I think Hextall's off here. Berube and his usage of Vinny really was a problem, not just for Vinny's pride, but more importantly for the team's success and for the sake of Hextall's ability to unload that dead albatross of a contract.

No matter how you feel about Berube it is the players responsibility to play into the coaches system. Not the coaches responsibility to adjust a system for 1 player. Do I think Vinny fit Berube's system. No. But Vinny was the only guy that just couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the system so he was the odd man out.

In regard to your next post Haksol's system is going to be similar to Berube's in that it requires defensive responsibility from the forwards in an up-pace transition game. Basically what Vinny couldn't do. It will also be joined by a different defensive system that will compliment this style but yes, it's going to be similar. So you might as well buy a stamkos jersey now.

[murraycraven]

Here is the way I look at this - F&$K Vinny...   if he wants to be a little bitch about it then fine.

 

Sit your ass in the box and serve popcorn while talking about the golden days.   He has nothing to complain about at this point.   You are no longer the player you once were and you are on the fast decline.   You should be thankful that you found Homer to give you that ludicrous contract and try to be a productive player to the Team.  You are also choosing to act like a whiny bitch... I used to support this guy but he must be brain-damaged from taking a few punches this year.   The fact that your agent cant find another Team should tell you exactly where your career is at: has been.

[JJMason33]

Here is the way I look at this - F&$K Vinny... if he wants to be a little bitch about it then fine.

Sit your ass in the box and serve popcorn while talking about the golden days. He has nothing to complain about at this point. You are no longer the player you once were and you are on the fast decline. You should be thankful that you found Homer to give you that ludicrous contract and try to be a productive player to the Team. You are also choosing to act like a whiny bitch... I used to support this guy but he must be brain-damaged from taking a few punches this year. The fact that your agent cant find another Team should tell you exactly where your career is at: has been.

Wow. I would say Vinny is definitely not being a baby about this. During the season he stays quiet and does as he's told. The guy signed on to play in a system that matched what he could still do and the system was changed 3 games into his contract. I would be pissed too. But he never said anything during the season and privately asked to be traded last season (which was available if the Flyers ate cap). And when that didn't happen and he was benched he didn't say anything until this offseason when he said he would rather not play under berube. I don't think the situation could be handled with anymore class than Vinny has shown.

The only issue now is to get Vinny to terminate his contract instead of him asking to keep same salary and have Flyers eat a part of his salary. But sides agree it's not a good fit. It's the solution to the issue that is at question. And definitely not how the player has handled it.

[murraycraven]

During the season he stays quiet and does as he's told.

 

until he hits the ice

 

 

 

The guy signed on to play in a system that matched what he could still do and the system was changed 3 games into his contract.

 

too bad... he was signed to a contract to play for the Flyers... no matter who the Coach was and is...  he has been in the game long enough to know the nature of the business - players and coaches come and go.

privately asked to be traded last season (which was available if the Flyers ate cap)

 

when and where?   there were no teams that were made public that wanted VLC.  His agent could not find a team over the course of last summer.   We are going on two offseasons (?) where another Team still has not wanted his services.

 

I am not saying VLC is a bad guy... the problem is he did not like the system he was asked to play.   When he was on the ice he chose not play the system and at the end of the season made it public it was Berube who had to go (which I agree).   Believe me - I hated Berube but VLC should not be making claims against a Coach after the season when he has been given an opportunity and failed.    Is it a perfect situation?  Absolutely not and everyone can agree on that.   

 

Vinny needs to go - simple as that.   No one will want him at that price tag so the Flyers will have to eat salary at some point if they trade him.  

[King Knut]

In regard to your next post Haksol's system is going to be similar to Berube's in that it requires defensive responsibility from the forwards in an up-pace transition game. Basically what Vinny couldn't do. It will also be joined by a different defensive system that will compliment this style but yes, it's going to be similar. So you might as well buy a stamkos jersey now.

 

Baloney.  A system needs to do more than just say it emphasizes defensive responsibility in order for it to truly emphasize defensive responsibility.

 

Berube's system even when enacted well was completely ineffective.  He wanted defensive responsibility from his forwards but had his D men playing blind and out of position and had absolutely no transition built in. 

 

What I'm saying is that regardless of how well it was executed, Berube's system was crap and set the entire team up for failure except for those players (G and Jake) who were at the peak of the league in both natural skill and physical conditioning and who could essentially excel at Pond Hockey.

 

Berube's system was most effective and being terrible.  Doesn't matter what player we're talking about.  We need better than that flawed concept of how a team should position and pass and skate on the ice.  It was god awful.  Atrocious and shameful.

[Bakanekimiwa]

If he did this, he'd leave about 9 million on the table. That's still a lot of cash, and probably more than he'd get on the open market at this point.

 

$11m(including $500k bonus 2016) reasons why I can't see this happening. Why would Vinny gamble on the market having a solid interest in him by forfeiting $10.5m in guaranteed money over the next 3 years. I'm missing something here. 

[radoran]

$11m(including $500k bonus 2016) reasons why I can't see this happening. Why would Vinny gamble on the market having a solid interest in him by forfeiting $10.5m in guaranteed money over the next 3 years. I'm missing something here.

He's $4.5 next season and $3 each the next two. Meltzer notes her gets $2 on July 1 and would then "walk away" from $8.5

Not inconceivable that he could make up the lion's share of $8.5 over the next few years and be in a better position.

#homercoaster

[JJMason33]

Baloney. A system needs to do more than just say it emphasizes defensive responsibility in order for it to truly emphasize defensive responsibility.

Berube's system even when enacted well was completely ineffective. He wanted defensive responsibility from his forwards but had his D men playing blind and out of position and had absolutely no transition built in.

What I'm saying is that regardless of how well it was executed, Berube's system was crap and set the entire team up for failure except for those players (G and Jake) who were at the peak of the league in both natural skill and physical conditioning and who could essentially excel at Pond Hockey.

Berube's system was most effective and being terrible. Doesn't matter what player we're talking about. We need better than that flawed concept of how a team should position and pass and skate on the ice. It was god awful. Atrocious and shameful.

I'm no Berube fan but Hakstol's system is going to require Vinny to play in a similar fashion that Berube would have asked of him. The big difference hakstol emphasizes more boxing out on defense and defenseman squeezing off on the boards. Which backup from the offense is required. It also emphasizes the defense make quick accurate outlet passes. Defenseman jumping into plays and general zone play.

[JJMason33]

when and where? there were no teams that were made public that wanted VLC. His agent could not find a team over the course of last summer. We are going on two offseasons (?) where another Team still has not wanted his services.

Actually Nashville and Ottawa were interested but Hextall would not eat any of Vinny's cap and I still believe he won't. He will either make Vinny sit the bench, retire, or terminate contract.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Vinny's not going to walk away from 9 million dollars because of five letters - NHLPA. The union would rip him apart if he did that because he'd be setting a precedent on the amount of money he'd be walking away from and he'd basically be caving into the team's demands. Other owners would see this as weakness and would try the same approach with other players by directing their GMs to sit guys who have too big of contracts and diminished skills. It's something that has the potential to get ugly real fast.

 

I do think there will be a solution to the Lecavalier mess, but it's going to require the Flyers taking on another bad contact in return, with maybe a higher cap hit, but a shorter term (maybe a year). That's what I think will happen.

[King Knut]

I'm no Berube fan but Hakstol's system is going to require Vinny to play in a similar fashion that Berube would have asked of him. The big difference hakstol emphasizes more boxing out on defense and defenseman squeezing off on the boards. Which backup from the offense is required. It also emphasizes the defense make quick accurate outlet passes. Defenseman jumping into plays and general zone play.

That's great, but that's different from anything going on under berube. The offense wasn't backing up with him, they were covering for out of position D men who couldn't watch the play.

Quick passes are wonderful. Who do they pass to when all three forwards are behind their own blue line?

Bunny may or may not work better this year, I don't know but most of the offense had a tough time making chief's game work. The expectations on Coots were especially ridiculous. If the offense is criticized for not scoring again and Hakstol has them playing the same "under water" style game, I'll have no tolerance for it.

Somehow I think he won't though. I suspect he'll have a better plan for transition. Just a hunch which may have something to do with chief's absolute lack of a transition plan.

[Mad Dog]

He's $4.5 next season and $3 each the next two. Meltzer notes her gets $2 on July 1 and would then "walk away" from $8.5

Not inconceivable that he could make up the lion's share of $8.5 over the next few years and be in a better position.

#homercoaster

 

Why not inconceivable Rad?  So far he had no luck trying to find a team wanting his services... which is exactly why by taking the $2 mil he would be gambling big time.  He can be unemployed from July 1st on.  

[Bakanekimiwa]

Why not inconceivable Rad?  So far he had no luck trying to find a team wanting his services... which is exactly why by taking the $2 mil he would be gambling big time.  He can be unemployed from July 1st on.  

 

 

I just can't see him walking away from any guaranteed salary. No matter what's been said, I just can't see a player walking away like that. Consider me blown away if it does happen. I think we'll likely see Vinny on the Flyer's lineup come Sept. Whether he's playing or not will be the only intrigue there. 

[Mad Dog]

I just can't see him walking away from any guaranteed salary. No matter what's been said, I just can't see a player walking away like that. Consider me blown away if it does happen. I think we'll likely see Vinny on the Flyer's lineup come Sept. Whether he's playing or not will be the only intrigue there. 

 

Yes, I have hard time seing ANYbody just walking away from this.

 

Put two things on the scales.  Playing in not-the-best-in-the-world situation but having a guranteed $8.5 mil or taking $2 mil and hoping that someone will want to pay you what you have already secured from the Flyers.  Yeah, that's a really tough decision to make.

[RJ8812]

Snider can just donate $8.5m to a charity of Vinny's choice

[radoran]

Why not inconceivable Rad?  So far he had no luck trying to find a team wanting his services... which is exactly why by taking the $2 mil he would be gambling big time.  He can be unemployed from July 1st on.

I've said repeatedly he wouldn't walk away.

But there are teams that wohld have taken him, by all accounts, if the Flyers retained salary.

VLC getting $3m or so for a couple years isn't inconceivable.

Just unlikely...

[jammer2]

@idahophilly  Nice find, missed that Metzler piece....if I was Vinny, I'd be looking to get out of town as Quickly as possible...he will simply not be able to play the style that Hakstol will be requiring of his players. Take your pick...watch the game from the stands or bow out gracefully and look for a fresh start. The hate for Vinny is only at the tip of the iceberg....there is LOTS more of where that came from. Do yourself a favour and get out now Vinny....

[JJMason33]

Vinny's not going to walk away from 9 million dollars because of five letters - NHLPA. The union would rip him apart if he did that because he'd be setting a precedent on the amount of money he'd be walking away from and he'd basically be caving into the team's demands. Other owners would see this as weakness and would try the same approach with other players by directing their GMs to sit guys who have too big of contracts and diminished skills. It's something that has the potential to get ugly real fast.

 

I do think there will be a solution to the Lecavalier mess, but it's going to require the Flyers taking on another bad contact in return, with maybe a higher cap hit, but a shorter term (maybe a year). That's what I think will happen.

No, this is a unique situation.  It's a combination of a guy that doesn't want to play here, a team that doesn't want him, but a guy that wants to play and be relevant for the remaining time he has.

 

And other GM's can try and do this, but they are also in risk of the player saying, OK I will just sit and take the money.  Then they are on the hook for the cap anyway.  

 

The key is the termination of contract in this case is mutual.  Its not Vinny walking away from Flyers and being in breach of contract.  Its not Flyers buying out Vinny and eating his cap.

[JJMason33]

That's great, but that's different from anything going on under berube. The offense wasn't backing up with him, they were covering for out of position D men who couldn't watch the play.

Quick passes are wonderful. Who do they pass to when all three forwards are behind their own blue line?

Bunny may or may not work better this year, I don't know but most of the offense had a tough time making chief's game work. The expectations on Coots were especially ridiculous. If the offense is criticized for not scoring again and Hakstol has them playing the same "under water" style game, I'll have no tolerance for it.

Somehow I think he won't though. I suspect he'll have a better plan for transition. Just a hunch which may have something to do with chief's absolute lack of a transition plan.

I'm not saying that Hakstol's system wont be better than Berube's, because it will.  All I am saying is there is a back-checking responsibility to the game that Vinny cant handle, just like he couldn't in Berube's system.

[flyercanuck]

It's unlikely anyone would walk away from $8.5 million. I sure wouldn't, nor would anyone else on this board.

 

But Vinnies already made $93 million.... not including any endorsement deals he's had, which I'm sure would make a tidy sum in itself. he's also still owed another $23 million from the Bolts, guaranteed money. You figure that in along with whatever another team is willing to pay him, and be happy playing there?

[OccamsRazor]

It's unlikely anyone would walk away from $8.5 million. I sure wouldn't, nor would anyone else on this board.

But Vinnies already made $93 million.... not including any endorsement deals he's had, which I'm sure would make a tidy sum in itself. he's also still owed another $23 million from the Bolts, guaranteed money. You figure that in along with whatever another team is willing to pay him, and be happy playing there?

Haha endorsement deal...to funny thanks for my morning laugh...who would that be with??? Depends??? Geritol?? The Scooter Store???