ScottM Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 There's always debate as to whether or not this guy or that guy should go into the Hall of Fame. There are some guys that are true borderline cases, and it's hard to guess whether or not they'll ever get in. Then again, I'm sure we can all think of some players or coaches that we feel should be no doubt HOF'ers that for some reason or another have never been enshrined. This thread is your chance to make your case for someone you feel has been snubbed and that you believe should be in. I'll start it off with Dave Andreychuk. The case against Andreychuk is almost always something like this: "He was a complier. He never had a 100 point season. He was a journeyman." Personally, I think the case for him is much stronger. Was he a compiler? Maybe to a degree, but that was thanks to his longevity. He is sixth all-time in NHL games played. That kind of longevity speaks of a high level of durability. Btw, in all those years of "compiling," he racked up a whopping 640 goals, placing him 14th all-time in goals scored. Only 18 players have ever reached the 600 goal plateau, and he's the only one of them not in the Hall of Fame. He's the all-time leader in power play goals. Twice he led the league in markers on the man advantage. Near the end of his career, he definitively proved his leadership ability with the Tampa Bay Lightning. He surprised many when he signed with the Lightning, since they were not on the radar as a contender. After they missed the playoffs in his first season, he refused a trade. The next season he was named captain and led the Bolts to the playoffs, snapping a seven season drought. Then, finally, after 22 years, he hoisted the Stanley Cup as Tampa Bay notched its first NHL title. Personally, I find it hard to believe they would have done so without him. Okay, you've read about my top pick. Give us yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Andreychuk is on the short list. Just too much there not to put him in. Gartner and Dino, two contemporaries made it no reason he should not. The all time leader in PPG seems like he should be a lock for the hall. The young and the Snooty voters are keeping him out to show their power. Sergei Federov should have been in a few years ago, it is absurd that he is not in yet. Eventually he will make it. Chris Pronger becomes eligible this year and I know a lot of folks love or hate him, but he better be a first ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Eric Lindros is definitely on the Snub list. Fred Shero was snubbed far too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Andreychuk is on the short list. Just too much there not to put him in. Gartner and Dino, two contemporaries made it no reason he should not. The all time leader in PPG seems like he should be a lock for the hall. The young and the Snooty voters are keeping him out to show their power. Sergei Federov should have been in a few years ago, it is absurd that he is not in yet. Eventually he will make it. Chris Pronger becomes eligible this year and I know a lot of folks love or hate him, but he better be a first ballot. I agree with you on Fedorov, wholeheartedly. He should be in on his career alone, but the story of how he got to the NHL and what it represented. increases his profile, in my opinion. I never could stand Pronger, but you're right on him as well. I have no problem saying I don't like a player, but I always try not to let that get in the way of my estimation of him. Gartner is a very similar case to Andreychuk, and that makes a good case for Dave, but Ciccarelli should put it beyond all doubt. Statisticallty, they're again similar, but there was a major character difference. If Stickarelli is there, there's no excuse for no Andreychuk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Not surprised no one said Makarov, that just adds the fact how completely under appreciated his entire career is. He has had the longest chance to get into the HHOF out of all these other players, and its an insult he has not been inducted yet. If Kharlamov is in, Makarov should be to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Not surprised no one said Makarov, that just adds the fact how completely under appreciated his entire career is. He has had the longest chance to get into the HHOF out of all these other players, and its an insult he has not been inducted yet. If Kharlamov is in, Makarov should be to... Yeah, if it's the Hockey Hall of Fame and not the NHL Hall of Fame, as they're often so quick to point out, there's a strong case to be made for Makarov. That's a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I don't necessarily think he should be in...but the 1000 points and NOT being in make him a prime candidate for this thread. Dale Hunter...discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 @jammer2 Here's why I wouldn't put Hunter into the Hall of Fame: He was a decent defensive forward, though I think great might be a but of a stretch. He was an okay offensive player, and he did twice finish twice on his team in points, but once that was with only 46 points. He never reached 30 goals, and he never reached 80 points in a season. For most of his career, there were a handful of players on his own team that were better than him. Ultimately, his biggest claim is his enforcer role. I'm not sure the enforcer role is enough to get someone into the Hall, even if he is one of the best ever in that role. Three hundred goals and 1,000 points do strengthen his argument, but I'm just not sure it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 @ScottM I agree with you, just tossing Dale's name out there for debate, anytime somebody gets 1000 pts and is not in, it's worthy of discussing. But then again, 1000 pts used to really mean something, Clarke used to be in the top 10 all time with 1,200+ pts, now he's 44...and falling quick. These days, 1000 pts does not mean what it used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 How about Pierre Turgeon? He played in over 1,200 games and has 1,300+ points.....he should be in. I think his cause was hurt playing for some dreadful NYI and Buffalo teams, but a long standing captain, and well over a point per game in a long career....he's borderline, but I'd say he should be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 @ScottM I agree with you, just tossing Dale's name out there for debate, anytime somebody gets 1000 pts and is not in, it's worthy of discussing. But then again, 1000 pts used to really mean something, Clarke used to be in the top 10 all time with 1,200+ pts, now he's 44...and falling quick. These days, 1000 pts does not mean what it used to. Throw out as many names as you like. I'm all for the discussion. I'll take your example of 1,000 points even further: When Howie Morenz died, his 472 points were an NHL record. No one had ever reached 1,000 points at all until Mr. Hockey reached the plateau in the 1960-61 season. Now, there are 82 players that have at least a thousand points. Anyway, I got your newest post while I was typing this. I was about to mention both Turgeon and Pat Verbeek. Since you beat me to Turgeon, I'll go ahead and give my answer: 513 goals, and, as you said, over 1,300 points. Yes, he's borderline, but I'd put him in. If one of the knocks on Andreychuk is no 100 point seasons, he's got Andreychuk, who as I've already stated I'd put in, beaten. Turgeon had two such seasons, and even hit 132 points in 1992-93. He also scored 58 goals that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 @ScottM Yes, the 132 pts put Turgeon in some rarefied air. That should further his cause, along with his other 100 pt season. I had forgot about Verbeek....what a great competitor, and very well liked around the league circles. Have not looked at his stats lately, but my gut says he belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 @ScottM Yes, the 132 pts put Turgeon in some rarefied air. That should further his cause, along with his other 100 pt season. I had forgot about Verbeek....what a great competitor, and very well liked around the league circles. Have not looked at his stats lately, but my gut says he belongs. 522 goals make a good beginning of a case, but he's not too far ahead of Hunter in points. Verbeek has 1,063 and Hunter has 1,020. His highest single season points total was 89. In some respects, the enforcer role is a big part of his case too, since he has almost 3,000 PIM. Then again, if you want to talk about some bad teams, he certainly had that working against him. He did what he did in spite of rather than because of his team in many cases. There are plenty of pluses and minuses for Verbeek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 @ScottM Another thing that might hurt both Hunter and Verbeek is lack of playoff success....Hunter averaged 0.63 pts per game in the post season (186 games) and Verbeek was worse at 0.52 pts per playoff game...Pat played in only 117 due to the crappy nature of the Whale. These stats are backbreakers for bubble guys. You gotta deliver when it matters most to make the Hall!! The more I think about it, the more I think Verbeek and Dale Hunter should be denied entry, it would water down the entry standards....it should be saved for the best of the best...not the very good. Even Turgeon, he might be a bit to wishy washy also....but you can make a better case for him than the other two. EDIT...AND Turgeon, 107 playoff games and 97 career playoff points....almost a point per game in the second season...very respectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 @jammer2@ScottMIf Turgeon had played on a quality team he would already be in. Now he has been swpt aside by other candidates and is largely forgotten. He was a heck of a player. Hunter, the perfect combo of scoring and fire, I wouldn't put him in but I can see the case for him and wouldn't cry to the rafters if he ever made it. Here is one. I cannot believe I am even bringing him up, I may have to turn in my Red Wings secret decoder ring.Claude 'Freaking Lemieux. Bet most of you didn't know his middle name was Freaking. Or freakin'. Or the other F word if you prefer. God Do I hate the guy, but he won, and there was no bigger game player for his era than Claude. Career totals of 379 goals and 786 points with nearly 2000 PIMs and winning the cup with three separate teams, well, it has to get him into the discussion.This is the stat for me that blows me away,Not once but twice he had more postseason goals in a year than in the regular season.In 1995 (the strike year) in 45 games he had an off year with only six goals and more than doubled it, thirteen in the postseason.In 1997 in an injury filled year he had 11 goals in 45 games and again, 13 in the postseason. So: 90 regular season games, 17 goals.And 37 postseason games 26 goals. Money in the postseason. I hated him and part of me still does and I cringe writing this but I think I would have to consider him ahead of quite a few ot the other guys listed. May Draper forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 @yave1964 Yip...you're officially NOT a Red Wing fan anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 @yave1964 You are now the second Wings fan anywhere close to Detroit that has good things to say about Claude Lemieux. The other one is the doctor who made a cool 3 mill off of Drap's facial reconstruction surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 @flyercanuck@jammer2 Believe me, it sickens me to say anything at all nice about Pepe' Le Pew. It has been twenty years since he rearranged Draper's face, he stole a cup in 1995 from us even. No love lost. I even hate his kid. But truthfully, he could play, other teams were always aware of where he was. I remember him drawing a double minor on a hit by LaPointe in a postseason game, Lemieux laying on the ice looking like he needed the trainer, an undertaker and a priest. Lapointe went to the box, thirty seconds later Lemieux had a miraculous recovery and set up the goal. I think I hated him more than every player before or since. But credit where it was due. The man flat out deserves credit as a winner. His numbers probably fall a bit short but I give him credit as a warrior who would (grudgingly) get my vote if I had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 @yave1964 Yes, it would be short sighted to not give Claude his props. I have not seen any stats supporting this, but just going off pure memory, he was one of the very best clutch players of all time. Seemed like every time the Habs, Devils or Ave's needed a big timely goal, he was there, depositing the puck in the back of the net...somehow, someway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 AND I can find a stat to back that up....may I present the Most Game winning Goals, all time in the playoffs... "MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS IN PLAYOFFS: 24 - Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton, Los Angeles, St. Louis, NY Rangers 24 - Brett Hull, St. Louis, Dallas, Detroit 19 - Claude Lemieux, Montreal, New Jersey, Colorado, Phoenix, Dallas 18 - Maurice Richard, Montreal 18 - Joe Sakic, Colorado Avalanche 17 - Mike Bossy, NY Islanders 17 - Glenn Anderson, Edmonton, Toronto, NY Rangers, St. WOW, 3rd all time in that cat....WOW....that is something....right there!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 AND I can find a stat to back that up....may I present the Most Game winning Goals, all time in the playoffs... "MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS IN PLAYOFFS: 24 - Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton, Los Angeles, St. Louis, NY Rangers 24 - Brett Hull, St. Louis, Dallas, Detroit 19 - Claude Lemieux, Montreal, New Jersey, Colorado, Phoenix, Dallas 18 - Maurice Richard, Montreal 18 - Joe Sakic, Colorado Avalanche 17 - Mike Bossy, NY Islanders 17 - Glenn Anderson, Edmonton, Toronto, NY Rangers, St. WOW, 3rd all time in that cat....WOW....that is something....right there!!Very nice Jammer! Damn good company he kept there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 @yave1964 I just remembered Claude scoring SO many GWG in so many playoff games for a lot of different teams. If any one stat is gonna get you into the Hall, that is certainly one you would want in your back pocket...he won the Conn Smythe in 95 also...one of the trophies that is a HUGE help when vying for Hall inclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 There's always debate as to whether or not this guy or that guy should go into the Hall of Fame. There are some guys that are true borderline cases, and it's hard to guess whether or not they'll ever get in. Then again, I'm sure we can all think of some players or coaches that we feel should be no doubt HOF'ers that for some reason or another have never been enshrined. This thread is your chance to make your case for someone you feel has been snubbed and that you believe should be in. I'll start it off with Dave Andreychuk. The case against Andreychuk is almost always something like this: "He was a complier. He never had a 100 point season. He was a journeyman." Personally, I think the case for him is much stronger. Was he a compiler? Maybe to a degree, but that was thanks to his longevity. He is sixth all-time in NHL games played. That kind of longevity speaks of a high level of durability. Btw, in all those years of "compiling," he racked up a whopping 640 goals, placing him 14th all-time in goals scored. Only 18 players have ever reached the 600 goal plateau, and he's the only one of them not in the Hall of Fame. He's the all-time leader in power play goals. Twice he led the league in markers on the man advantage. Near the end of his career, he definitively proved his leadership ability with the Tampa Bay Lightning. He surprised many when he signed with the Lightning, since they were not on the radar as a contender. After they missed the playoffs in his first season, he refused a trade. The next season he was named captain and led the Bolts to the playoffs, snapping a seven season drought. Then, finally, after 22 years, he hoisted the Stanley Cup as Tampa Bay notched its first NHL title. Personally, I find it hard to believe they would have done so without him. Okay, you've read about my top pick. Give us yours. What always amazes me is how little the voters respect longevity. Instead of being rewarded with the Hall of Fame, players are punished for consistent play over a long period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What always amazes me is how little the voters respect longevity. Instead of being rewarded with the Hall of Fame, players are punished for consistent play over a long period of time. Really? Seems to like there's tons of compilers in the HOF, who never really came very close to winning major individual awards or were league leaders in their time. Most years, at least one gets in: 2014 - Modano2013 - Shanahan2012 - Sundin2011 - Gilmour2010 - Ciccarelli2008 - Anderson2006 - Duff We could go back further, but it's a fair example for a couple of minute's work. I'm not saying those guys were bums or shouldn't be in there (well, other than Dick Duff), but just that guys don't really get hurt by longeivity, imo... Not to judge by how many are getting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Really? Seems to like there's tons of compilers in the HOF, who never really came very close to winning major individual awards or were league leaders in their time. Most years, at least one gets in: 2014 - Modano2013 - Shanahan2012 - Sundin2011 - Gilmour2010 - Ciccarelli2008 - Anderson2006 - Duff We could go back further, but it's a fair example for a couple of minute's work. I'm not saying those guys were bums or shouldn't be in there (well, other than Dick Duff), but just that guys don't really get hurt by longeivity, imo... Not to judge by how many are getting in. The NHL isn't the best example of this because they tend to be more generous with who they let in. I think it happens much more often in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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