King Knut Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 B-b-b-but in two more years smell the cap relief!Don't mock it. It's not nothing. I don't thing the Jake or Coots deals get done by now without that 5 million those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Maybe Hexy saw what was going to happen in the season, and let it take its course hoping for a higher first round pick but not openly stating it or making obvious moves to tank. He laid out his plan for a rebuild from the net out and Draft picks is what he wanted to a aquire to build from within the organization, he saw the banana peel around the corner this season, and didn't tell the players to watch out, he let them deal with it. He said he knew Umby was hurt, he allowed the spiral to happen observing from a safe distance to not be directly involved in blatant tanking, he let it unfold on its own hoping the pieces fall the right way. He also has standards of conduct on and off the ice, if the players don't display them, he will eventually move them from the team. He has his vision of who his core players are and he believes in having forwards paired by two and a complementary piece on wing, building from within and adding FA pieces to complement the core pieces.So if they kept Harts, they might have made the playoffs and had to have kept Berube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 On the flip-side, think of how excited all the people who owned his jersey the first time around are. I'm sure they're both thrilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Sux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Don't mock it. It's not nothing. I don't thing the Jake or Coots deals get done by now without that 5 million those years.It's not nothing but it's within sight of nothing. Oh I realize the trade wasn't a make-or-break deal I'm only sour on it bc I liked watching Hartnell with the Flyers. Also he brings more to a team than you can possibly measure, qualities that are important for a club like the Flyers who are transitioning to a younger team. You know what I'm referring to, the easily-mocked "warrior" and "leader in the room" cliches.Not a terrible loss but a pretty horrible return. Injured or healthy with Umberger there's not much difference lol. No, that's not nice, sorry RJ. But all in all I would've been happier with another pick even if Hartnell only fetched a 2nd. You? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's not nothing but it's within sight of nothing. Oh I realize the trade wasn't a make-or-break deal I'm only sour on it bc I liked watching Hartnell with the Flyers. Also he brings more to a team than you can possibly measure, qualities that are important for a club like the Flyers who are transitioning to a younger team. You know what I'm referring to, the easily-mocked "warrior" and "leader in the room" cliches.Not a terrible loss but a pretty horrible return. Injured or healthy with Umberger there's not much difference lol. No, that's not nice, sorry RJ. But all in all I would've been happier with another pick even if Hartnell only fetched a 2nd. You?I agree that I'd rather have Harts and Umberger is a disaster and a pick would have been way better. But harts has a tough contract and all I'm saying is 2 free years is still something that will help and I believe it already has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 2 free years is still something that will help Ya no argument there. We'll never know why Hextall thought Umberger was fair value for Hartnell but freeing up money 2 years earlier fits nicely into the Flyers rebuild mode. When RJ's contract expires a few of our prospects who will make the Flyers will likely have done so by then. The Flyers' new look won't include a 35-year old Scott Hartnell (who I really like) gobbling up nearly $5mil of the cap. So I certainly agree with you, 2 years is not nothing. It's just...RJ Umberger...lol ugh! I liked him enough the first time around, thought he was a decent 3rd-line mucker type but unless he pulls off a real comeback this year his roster spot should probably be upstairs serving popcorn. and I believe it already has. I don't get how the Hartnell-RJ deal affected Voracek's new contract...maybe you can explain. In any case would waiting 6 months really have been such a bad thing? Voracek didn't need to be re-signed this summer. It's nice they got it done; I'm all for stability and retaining talent, I just don't understand how Hartnell drawing a check from the Flyers would've prevented it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 @canoli RJ also "helped" get us Provorov and Sanheim. We likely finish higher with Hartnell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 @canoli RJ also "helped" get us Provorov and Sanheim. We likely finish higher with Hartnell. You mean Konecny? The Flyers probably aren't sellers at the deadline with Hartnell. Might even be buyers. So they probably were not dealing him for a draft pick at the deadline like folks keep hoping they would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Hmm, to FC's point I agree it's not hard imagining Hartnell helping the Flyers more than Umberger. Of course there's roller hockey girls out there who would've helped the Flyers more than Umberger last year. But buyers instead of sellers? That's a stretch imho. The Flyers finished with 84 pts., the Pens took the last wildcard with 98. Does Hartnell's 60-pt season (with the Jackets) really push the Flyers into the POs? I doubt it. Who knows, maybe his 28 goals all come at critical times and the Flyers *do* win 7 or 8 more games...and the Pens, the Sens all lose a few more. But I hope even if that happened Hextall wasn't going to go Homer on us and pretend the Flyers were thisclose... Either way both you guys have just made me grateful for RJ Umberger! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 @canoli RJ also "helped" get us Provorov and Sanheim. We likely finish higher with Hartnell.I believe they discussed this strategy over lunch at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 You mean Konecny? The Flyers probably aren't sellers at the deadline with Hartnell. Might even be buyers. So they probably were not dealing him for a draft pick at the deadline like folks keep hoping they would have done. No, I meant Umberger made the Flyers a worse team, so the pick was higher, resulting in Provorov and Sanheim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I believe they discussed this strategy over lunch at some point. Ya, I doubt it was the plan...but the result was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 @canoli RJ also "helped" get us Provorov and Sanheim. We likely finish higher with Hartnell. Very good point and who knows that would maybe help keep Chief around still.................so it was worth it i guess...and i also agree Jake didn't have to be resigned now...as with Coots too...it could have waited.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 @fc - sanheim was drafted last year, before the trade. I don't understand how Umberger had any impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Ya no argument there. We'll never know why Hextall thought Umberger was fair value for Hartnell but freeing up money 2 years earlier fits nicely into the Flyers rebuild mode. When RJ's contract expires a few of our prospects who will make the Flyers will likely have done so by then. The Flyers' new look won't include a 35-year old Scott Hartnell (who I really like) gobbling up nearly $5mil of the cap. So I certainly agree with you, 2 years is not nothing. It's just...RJ Umberger...lol ugh! I liked him enough the first time around, thought he was a decent 3rd-line mucker type but unless he pulls off a real comeback this year his roster spot should probably be upstairs serving popcorn.I don't get how the Hartnell-RJ deal affected Voracek's new contract...maybe you can explain. In any case would waiting 6 months really have been such a bad thing? Voracek didn't need to be re-signed this summer. It's nice they got it done; I'm all for stability and retaining talent, I just don't understand how Hartnell drawing a check from the Flyers would've prevented it.to be fair, RJ was really a big time player in CS for a few years after he left Philly. He was strong and consistent for them in ways that the more temperamental star acquisitions they brought in were not. Those days however have passed & the whole injury thing still is a head scratcher to me. Why Hextall chose a fan favorite to make his mark with is also beyond me. However, to address the signings, if you know you're going to have 5 minion more dollars in 2 years, it's easier to commit away 12 million in that time frame. Unloading Geossman and Coburn helped get cap room for the mean time, but the Umberger is gone money just makes it easier to realistically believe you'll be able to fill out a team or resign the RFA's you'll want to then. I literally think it just gives confidence that you'll be able to ice a decent team in two years instead to having to bargain basement shop for guys like Cola after the season starts. It wouldn't be smart to commit to those dollars now when you're still on the hook for 5 million to one guy two years in. Hextall may also be thinking of buying out Umby at this point which becomes an easier proposition than buying out Scotty would have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 No, I meant Umberger made the Flyers a worse team, so the pick was higher, resulting in Provorov and Sanheim. sanheim was not part of the Umberger... I will give you Prov to a small degree. If you really want to say the Umberger was the root cause of us getting a high draft pick then you should also thank Matt Read, our entire defense, VLC, Berube, etc... he was part of the suckage but not the entire thing.The deal sucked when it was made and it still sucks now. It will suck even more if Hartnell is still productive in those two years as well. His contract was not bad for his numbers. The deal sucks - Umberger sucks and frankly Hextall screwed the pooch on the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Taking another look at the "couldn't sign Couturier and Voracek without trading Hartnell" line of thinking, it just doesn't hold up. Both Couturier and Voracek's new deals will be on the cap next season and Umburglar's $4.6M cap hit. The extra $150K from Hartnell's deal simply doesn't affect anything enough to make a difference or to work as a "reason" that they had to trade for cap space three years later. They would essentially have the same $10M projected cap space. And I'm not liking the revisionist history behind "well, it got us Provorov" - if only because that wasn't at all the rationale behind making the deal in the first place. Umburglar was "more versatile" and "could play many roles" while Hartnell could "only" play top line left wing and they had... well, OK, nobody set to fill that role (and Umburglar clearly couldn't handle it). In the end, they traded a 28-goal-scoring top line left wing to a team that finished ahead of them in the standings and got back a guy they may or may not have known was injured, refused to address his injury and missed the playoffs for the second time in three years while not having a replacement for the top line left wing spot (and they still have a big question mark in that role). In my mind a reliable 20+ goal scoring top six winger should get you more than a broken down player for three years and then "cap space" after that. And, in my mind, they could have gotten that extra cap space any time in the three years we're going to be watching RJ Umburglar play for the Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Taking another look at the "couldn't sign Couturier and Voracek without trading Hartnell" line of thinking, it just doesn't hold up.Both Couturier and Voracek's new deals will be on the cap next season and Umburglar's $4.6M cap hit.The extra $150K from Hartnell's deal simply doesn't affect anything enough to make a difference or to work as a "reason" that they had to trade for cap space three years later.They would essentially have the same $10M projected cap space.And I'm not liking the revisionist history behind "well, it got us Provorov" - if only because that wasn't at all the rationale behind making the deal in the first place.Umburglar was "more versatile" and "could play many roles" while Hartnell could "only" play top line left wing and they had... well, OK, nobody set to fill that role (and Umburglar clearly couldn't handle it).In the end, they traded a 28-goal-scoring top line left wing to a team that finished ahead of them in the standings and got back a guy they may or may not have known was injured, refused to address his injury and missed the playoffs for the second time in three years while not having a replacement for the top line left wing spot (and they still have a big question mark in that role).In my mind a reliable 20+ goal scoring top six winger should get you more than a broken down player for three years and then "cap space" after that. And, in my mind, they could have gotten that extra cap space any time in the three years we're going to be watching RJ Umburglar play for the Flyers.Don't worry rad... he will be healthy this yr and score 20... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Don't worry rad... he will be healthy this yr and score 20... I'm presuming a ninja there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'm presuming a ninja there Lol Absolutely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 The extra $150K from Hartnell's deal simply doesn't affect anything enough to make a difference or to work as a "reason" that they had to trade for cap space three years later. They would essentially have the same $10M projected cap space. And I'm not liking the revisionist history behind "well, it got us Provorov" - if only because that wasn't at all the rationale behind making the deal in the first place.I felt at the time the deal was probably based on something personal, either btw Hartnell and Berube or Hartnell and Hextall. Not necessarily off-ice but maybe the attitudes of those 3 just didn't mesh anymore. Who knows...But from a team-building perspective the deal made very little sense, notwithstanding the 2-year reprieve on Hartnell cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I felt at the time the deal was probably based on something personal, either btw Hartnell and Berube or Hartnell and Hextall. Not necessarily off-ice but maybe the attitudes of those 3 just didn't mesh anymore. Who knows...But from a team-building perspective the deal made very little sense, notwithstanding the 2-year reprieve on Hartnell cap hit.Could have been Hextall saying "this isn't your Homer's team anymore" but I agree with you, there was likely Something More there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I felt at the time the deal was probably based on something personal, either btw Hartnell and Berube or Hartnell and Hextall. Not necessarily off-ice but maybe the attitudes of those 3 just didn't mesh anymore. Who knows...But from a team-building perspective the deal made very little sense, notwithstanding the 2-year reprieve on Hartnell cap hit.Wasn't the fallout between Hartnell, Hextall and Berube about Hartnell's off season training? I thought I remembered something about the three of them having it out over that and that's why Hartnell was moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Hmm...yes....no? As soon as I read your post I thought "oh right" but I really don't remember. Seems to me that was the year before when everyone was upset about the Flyers' conditioning, not only Hartnell - or lack of it I should say. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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