Please stop the madness

[hf101]

Listening to a couple of player interviews after the game, the players have been focusing on their defensive play, including Jake.  In last nights game they didn't get up to their game speed (or play 60 min).  Since the 1-7 loss they have given up 2 goals in 3 games, I think as a team they are accomplishing that goal.  Scoring will come.

 

The Stars on the other hand have scored 13 points in his previous 3 games and were held to only 2 goals against the Flyers.  

 

IMO, if this team hadn't had 5 days off without a game the effort probably would have been much closer to a full 60 min.

[FD19372]

Really? Which one line is that?

 

Surely not the 18 million dollar line who collectively have a whopping 2 points amongst them right?

True, but that top line is EXPECTED to be better.  The rest of them are a crapshoot (with my apologies to crap).

[Jmdodgesrt4]

It's more then just this season. What about last year? He played better in a 3rd line role away from the better lines of d

[radoran]

IMO, if this team hadn't had 5 days off without a game the effort probably would have been much closer to a full 60 min.

So tonight it will be "they just played last night"?

This time off was too much.

This time off wasn't enough.

When is the porridge just right for them?

[ruxpin]

So tonight it will be "they just played last night"?

This time off was too much.

This time off wasn't enough.

When is the porridge just right for them?

 

 

[canoli]

So tonight it will be "they just played last night"?

This time off was too much.

This time off wasn't enough.

When is the porridge just right for them?

So what are you saying u don't think the 5 day layoff should affect hockey teams? I think we all know a long break is a valid reason for coming out slow, sluggish, off the mark, esp against one of the speedier NHL teams who happen to be on a roll. Didn't the Flyers look better, faster more in-sync in the 3rd? I thought so.

OTOH I hear ya....the excuses do tend to pile up with this team lol!

[radoran]

OTOH I hear ya....the excuses do tend to pile up with this team lol!

 

This.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this team is out of excuses.

 

They needed to come out of the gate strong and instead they're all of one point better than last year at this time.

 

Benn and Seguin aren't out looking for excuses - they're out scoring goals and winning hockey games.

 

 

 

For the record, yes teams can look "sluggish" after five games off. Good teams win anyway.

[aziz]

For the record, yes teams can look "sluggish" after five games off. Good teams win anyway.

 

come on, now.  there is one undefeated team in the league right now.  and guess what, they will lose at some point, too.  "good" teams lose games, sometimes.

 

i missed last night's game, but looking at the box, it doesn't appear the flyers were blown out of the water.  outshot dallas, out hit, won more faceoffs.  giroux/voracek outshot benn/seguin 14-7.  

 

again, didn't see the game, maybe the flyers floundered from start to finish, the 35 shots were incidental and the 52% FW% meaningless.  regardless, good teams don't always win, after a layoff or otherwise.  good teams can be sluggish, can have bad shifts/periods/games/stretches of games.  i really can't get my head around a statement like "good teams win anyway", because it just isn't even vaguely true.  they win at a higher rate than bad teams, but it's still a non-100% rate.

 

trivia:  the cup-winning hawks won once last season after a layoff of at least 5 days, and lost twice.  one of those losses was to winnipeg.  they've lost both games this season after 3 day breaks.  "good teams win anyway"?

[canoli]

Ya sure but we all agree, and the whole world knows the Flyers are not a good hockey team.

They may become one before the season is done, "good" meaning an 8 seed, middle of the pack type team. But "good" is in beating a hot Dallas team after a 5-day layoff...the Flyers are pretty far from that. And to be fair most teams would've had trouble getting up to speed after a long break. Holding them to 2 goals, getting a dirty one for themselves in the 3rd...not so terrible imho.

[King Knut]

Coots is not a 2c. Pretty apparent 5 games in and why is manning still playing over schenn?

 

He's tied for the team lead in points and scored a goal last night.  He's outpacing Jake and G.

Exactly who on this team is the better 2C right now?

It's not looking smooth yet (well sometimes it does, he made nice tight passes on the rush earlier that resulted in goals for Gagner and Read).  But I'll grant that it doesn't look like Toews and Kane just yet.  But it's producing.

Jake and G look smoother than the 2nd line... but they're not putting it together yet.  Both are symptoms of the same problem:

 

This team is still relearning how to play the game the way Hakstol is coaching it.  It's going to take time.  They haven't looked half bad doing it.  The stars are good.  They were a good offensive team last year and they're going to be even better this year with some of the new pieces. 

 

The thing to keep in mind is that this Flyers team is like a stroke victim learning how to be a world class runner again.  They need to learn to walk before they can jog.

Right now what they're working on on D and the neutral zone (mostly back checking and collapsing in front of the net) is their priority now.  They played against one of the best offenses in the league last night and got beat twice (mostly because Manning screwed up twice).    The offense isn't going to look good for a while.   G isn't scoring, Jake isn't scoring.  Simmer is looking fairly sketchy even though he's helping chip in. 

 

This team is just getting it's legs under it.  And trust me as far as what Hakstol is looking for from this team right now, Coots is doing a better job of putting it all together than G or Laughton at this point.  G is still trying to do too much (because he's had to do everything for a few years now) and Laughton is still trying to cover his bases. 

 

Coots is doing just fine.  Seriously.  I'm not just saying that.  He really is looking just fine for what this team is trying to do.  As his line formalizes and they settle into their roles, they will carry the puck more often and more cleanly and they will look more smooth as they generate opportunities. In the mean time, they're not just generating opportunities, they're capitalizing on them in the ways that the top line can't manage just yet.  Maybe lay off a little.

[King Knut]

Don't think schenn will make a difference. They can't score. Saw it to much last year and it hasn't gotten any better.

 

It'll get better.  This team is working from the fundamentals of a new system out.  That starts with Defense in the neutral zone and in their own zone, then it moves to transitioning back through the neutral zone.  They already look ABUNDANTLY better at those three things.  Even last night, doing those three aspects of the game, they looked worlds better than they have for two years. 

 

It's going to take some time to put the cherry on top and start turning it into scoring.  Guys are going to have to figure out where to go to be open and how to pass it to them and THEN after they've done that for a while, it's going to take a long time of knowing it before it becomes 2nd nature and starts to look smooth and consistently effective.

 

They're experimenting.  Every shift I see Jake and G out there, I can see them experimenting.  They're still carrying it in and then playing around with how to get open and make a goal happen.  What I like from Coots and Simmer/Gagner/Schenn/Read is the way they experiment on the rush more.  It doesn't look as fancy as Jake and G and Raffy with their fancy stick handling trying to thread impossible passes and getting close but no cigar... but it's been more effective.

 

I believe we'll see both groups hone things and get sharper and sharper throughout the season.  This crap doesn't happen overnight.  It's impressive they've learned as much of the rest of Hakstol's game as they have.  The part where they turn it into lots of offense is the toughest and it will take more than 4 games.

[Podein25]

They're experimenting. 

 

 

As someone who has done his share of "experimenting," I can tell you that there's both good and bad (not to mention, ugly) in experimenting.

[King Knut]

I think Hexy must know this offense is not meshing well and something needs to change.

 

I couldn't disagree more.  They're meshing quite well.  They're not finishing well.  Learning how to do that off the D formation and transition system they're still only just learning is going to take a lot of time.  But I'm very impressed with the transition game I'm already seeing from them.

 

I'm actually more encouraged by the bottom 3 lines than I am the first.  Jake and G and Raffl have the speed and the talent to get into the offensive zone without a smart transition.  Then they're just in there and trying to make fancy plays out of nothing.  It's like they're trying to play a PP even strengthed and are hindered by the fact that the Defense is still doing what they're supposed to be back in the neutral zone. 

 

Coots and Laughton and even the energy line are doing a much better job of actually transitioning the play through the neutral zone.  They're just not good at scoring yet.  I believe the first line will get better at transitioning and being "fancy" on the transition and I think the 2 and 3 will get better at figuring out how to finish off a successful transition.

 

It's not happening yet.  The passes aren't clean and the guys aren't quite open yet.  But it's working sometimes and the general idea of it all is looking way smarter and way more encouraging than anything I saw the past two years.  Losses aside, I'm greatly encouraged by it.

 

That's not to say a few changes couldn't help them along.  But to say they're not meshing?  I just don't agree.  They're actually progressing much better than I'd hoped from what I can see.

[King Knut]

Really? Yeah I guess it's a long look up. They both have a combined 1 point. I think the team is carrying those two. Hopefully they plan on earning that combined 16+ million....

 

I'm with you.  I'm not sure how Coots, Simmer, Read, Schenn, Laughton and Gagner are the ones anyone's choosing to complain about here. 

 

And I wouldn't be complaining about any of them really.  These guys are still learning and figuring out the game Hakstol wants them to play, the kind of game they should have been playing for a few years now. 

It ain't gonna happen overnight. 

 

I think these guys let one good game against Florida and a great game against the Hawks go to their heads. 

Let's also not forget that Dallas was a good team that got a LOT better in the off season. 

The Flyers lost by one goal, and that goal was a complete miscue break down.  It wasn't a case of getting beat on fundamentals or execution.  It was a brain fart and those have been happening more rarely. 

The Stars have one of the deadlist top two lines in hockey at this point. 

 

Losing 2-1 to them in game 5?  I'm not worried about that.

[brelic]

i missed last night's game, but looking at the box, it doesn't appear the flyers were blown out of the water.  outshot dallas, out hit, won more faceoffs.  giroux/voracek outshot benn/seguin 14-7.  

 

Meltzer sums it up nicely, which was my observation too:

 

The Flyers' top line trio of Jakub Voracek (six shots, nine attempts), Claude Giroux (eight shots, nine attempts) and Raffl (three shots, six attempts) put plenty of rubber at the net but most were either from the perimeter or not placed quite where they wanted them to go. 

 

[radoran]

come on, now. there is one undefeated team in the league right now. and guess what, they will lose at some point, too. "good" teams lose games, sometimes.

 

OK, I concede more than a little hyperbolic on my part - but I am just not really impressed with that "reason."

 

(FWIW, I couldn't find the Hawk win after a layover - only found losses to LA and Winnipeg (in which the Hawks actually scored first in both))

 

Ya sure but we all agree, and the whole world knows the Flyers are not a good hockey team.

They may become one before the season is done, "good" meaning an 8 seed, middle of the pack type team. But "good" is in beating a hot Dallas team after a 5-day layoff...the Flyers are pretty far from that. And to be fair most teams would've had trouble getting up to speed after a long break. Holding them to 2 goals, getting a dirty one for themselves in the 3rd...not so terrible imho.

 

"they played a hot team"
"they had a long break"
"they were not so terrible"

 

"Not so terrible" is not what I'm looking for in the hockey team I support, is all.

 

let's add:

Not a conference opponent

Mason hadn't started in over a week
Mason had personal issues

Looking ahead to rivalry night in Boston

It's a new coach

It's a new system

They played more defensively

They ran into a hot goalie

 

They ran out of gas.

They had a flat tire.

They didn't have enough money for cab fare.

Their tux didn't come back from the cleaners.

An old friend came in from out of town.

Someone stole their car.

There was an earthquake.

A terrible flood.

Locusts!

IT WASN'T THEIR FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD!

 

I think you nailed it with the first one

 

They're not a good hockey team

[King Knut]

Not a complaint, an observation.

This team needs GOAL SCORING.

 

Yes.  But this is NEW and it's great that this is what they need. 

As of the end of last season they needed help in every aspect of the game except maybe goaltending.

 

They've make STARK improvements on 3/5 of the basic aspects of the game.  Offense is the last to focus on.  You need to make the fundamentals inside the D zone, and the Neutral zone 2nd nature, then work on flourishes of scoring (off the transition and attack in most cases) and that's how you become the Kings that won two cups or the Blackhawks that won 3.  It doesn't happen overnight, but they are looking good in a LOT of the rest of the game so far and typically learning how to score is the last.

Hell the Kings had to bring in Carter and Gaborik to sort it out. 

[King Knut]

The stats don't lie, however. This team is what it is, a one-line team with a little help from Simmonds.

 

I think you need to look at those stats again... unless the line you're thinking of is Read/Coots/Schenn.  Because those are the guys (with a little help from Simmonds) leading the stat categories right now. 

Giroux has a goal and an assist.

Jake and Raffl have an assist each.

 

Which stats are you talking about exactly? 

 

Now don't be simplistic and think that I'm trying to suggest that Coots, et al are better than Jake and G.  That should CLEARLY not be what I'm suggesting to you.  I'm just suggesting that it ain't the players.  It's the learning curve. 

The fact that the "one line" on the one line team isn't even producing should indicate something to you.  And what I interpret that to mean is that the WHOLE team is busy learning a lot of stuff and that goal scoring is the bottom priority right now and frankly, I'm fine with that.  I think it's the way it should be. 

 

Remember in Hoosiers when they go entire practices without taking a shot?  It's along those lines.  Fundamentally relearning 3/4 of the game first.   Get that down.  One you get better at getting sharper passes to open players that opposing D man can't catch up with or didn't see coming, the goals will come. 

[ruxpin]

I'm with you.  I'm not sure how Coots, Simmer, Read, Schenn, Laughton and Gagner are the ones anyone's choosing to complain about here. 

 

He was responding to my "It's a long walk between G&V and the rest of the team."

 

All I meant was in terms of skill level and previous production.  In the context it was meant, I'll stand by my statement.

 

I like your posts on this thread, by the way.  I think your call for patience and pointing out improvements is on point.

[radoran]

I think your call for patience and pointing out improvements is on point.

 

There are definitely positives in all of this mess - and obviously they're not cleaning up the homercoaster™ mess quickly.

 

But it is frustrating.

[vonginous]

@King Knut

I agree they will get better. I just don't think it will get that much better (scoring goals) not that some of the guys art good but just think a few aren't a good fit.

[aziz]

(FWIW, I couldn't find the Hawk win after a layover - only found losses to LA and Winnipeg (in which the Hawks actually scored first in both))

 

october 9th, 3-2 OT win against dallas (as it happens).  previous game was on the 3rd.

[ruxpin]

There are definitely positives in all of this mess - and obviously they're not cleaning up the homercoaster™ mess quickly.

 

But it is frustrating.

 

Absofrickentutely.

 

Here's the thing with patience:  I'M NOT GETTING ANY YOUNGER!!!

[Podein25]

Here's the thing with patience:  I'M NOT GETTING ANY YOUNGER!!!

 

 

It's true, none of us are, but think about the WISDOM! Out the wazoo!

[radoran]

october 9th, 3-2 OT win against dallas (as it happens).  previous game was on the 3rd.

 

The 3rd was the last preseason game