fanaticV3.0 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, icehole said: If you're "ok with him being really good", you hate him. Get out of here! I like him. I wish he would score 50 or so points a year, but his defense is so good that I'm not that upset by his offense of production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Couturier is on a .6 PPG level this season and if he continues at that, there's no problem there at all. I'm happier with him as a #8 overall than, say, Gagner as a 6th, for example... Some consistent, talented wingers would help him. Hell, they'd help anybody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, radoran said: Couturier is on a .6 PPG level this season and if he continues at that, there's no problem there at all. I'm happier with him as a #8 overall than, say, Gagner as a 6th, for example... Some consistent, talented wingers would help him. Hell, they'd help anybody He definitely made progress this season (at least for the last month or so). It's hard to say what his numbers would have been because he's been offensively inconsistent and injury doesn't help that. Gagne is a disappointment but I'm not too upset about his draft position because the flyers didn't draft him. I still think he could be of some value to the team though. Maybe couturier's injury will give him enough playing time to get in a groove. He doesn't have the greatest linemates either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 18 hours ago, icehole said: Gagne is a disappointment but I'm not too upset about his draft position because the flyers didn't draft him. I still think he could be of some value to the team though. Maybe couturier's injury will give him enough playing time to get in a groove. He doesn't have the greatest linemates either. I was just making a comparison to a player drafted in the Top 10 who happens to be on the Flyers at the moment. He was also drafted four years before Couturier. I think Sean still has room to grow where Gagner may just be what we see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Sam Gagner illustrates my point about the risk/ folly of the "ooh let's get that top 10 draft pick " mentality. Gagner was #6 and can't crack this year's Flyers line up with any regularity. He's 26-27 ... he's got skill but doesn't seem to have the all the things good NHL players have, and he was #6 overall, can't miss, this guy lit up the the OHL ( or whatever) . He's spent time in the Lehigh Valley, on this Flyers team that can't score... and he can't find a regular shift . #6 overall, riding the buses in his "prime". just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 34 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Sam Gagner illustrates my point about the risk/ folly of the "ooh let's get that top 10 draft pick " mentality. Gagner was #6 and can't crack this year's Flyers line up with any regularity. He's 26-27 ... he's got skill but doesn't seem to have the all the things good NHL players have, and he was #6 overall, can't miss, this guy lit up the the OHL ( or whatever) . He's spent time in the Lehigh Valley, on this Flyers team that can't score... and he can't find a regular shift . #6 overall, riding the buses in his "prime". just saying. Completely agree. I understand it being a low risk/high potential reward situation getting something back in the Pronger/Grossmannn deal and a guy on a one year deal. But he just hasn't ever been the player he was projected to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, radoran said: But he just hasn't ever been the player he was projected to be. Yeah, and will never really know if that was 'cause EDM cannot draft or ruined/rushed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, Podein25 said: Yeah, and will never really know if that was 'cause EDM cannot draft or ruined/rushed him. I think he is "an NHL player" but maybe not a consistent top 6. Other 6th overall around Gagner 05 - Brule 06 - Brassard 07 - Gagner 08 - FIlatov 09 - Ekman-Larsson 10 - (Brett) Connolly 11- Zibanejad 12 - Lindholm 13 - Monahan It's not a guarantee and maybe he is actually in line with what can be expected at 6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Here's something that surprised me... and will probably surprise most of you. Gagner was picked 6th overall, and Voracek was right behind him at 7th. Gagner's numbers are very close to Voracek's. Over basically the same number of games (587 for Gagner, 583 for Voracek), Jake has scored 14 more career goals than Sam (132 to 118). Jake also has 58 more career assists than Sam... which is about 1 extra assist every 10 games, or 8 extra assists per 82 games. One of them is signed for almost $9M dollars per year for the next 8 years, and one is an expiring UFA who can't seem to keep his job. Strange, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 @brelic WOW...that is surprising and bizarre. Who would have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 13 minutes ago, brelic said: One of them is signed for almost $9M dollars per year for the next 8 years, and one is an expiring UFA who can't seem to keep his job. Strange, isn't it? Well, as you know, I have severe concerns about that Voracek deal. And I like Jake as a player. That said, Gagner has never scored 81 points in a season. He topped out at 49 in Y1. Looking at recent production, Voracek has 189 points over the past three seasons coming into this one. Gagner has 116. And Voracek has potted 20+ the past three seasons. Gagner has never topped 18. To be clear, Jake has a lot of work to do to be worth the deal he signed. A lot. But I'd say his trajectory is undeniably on a different level than Gagner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Am I the only person that really thinks Gagner is not very good? I just don't get the love he seems to attract around these boards. I will be more than happy to spend his money elsewhere when the season is over. He has skill but that is about as much as you can say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, radoran said: But I'd say his trajectory is undeniably on a different level than Gagner. Absolutely. I was just surprised at how similar they were over the same number of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, murraycraven said: Am I the only person that really thinks Gagner is not very good? I just don't get the love he seems to attract around these boards. I will be more than happy to spend his money elsewhere when the season is over. He has skill but that is about as much as you can say... I think it's more a sentiment of "see what you have" given the low risk/potential reward he represented. Maybe a chance to rescue another 2007 pick (like Voracek). Unfortunately, we haven't seen very much in the chances he's had. I don't think anyone's going to miss him after this year. He'll likely hang around the league in the middle 6 for a while, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, radoran said: I think it's more a sentiment of "see what you have" given the low risk/potential reward he represented. Maybe a chance to rescue another 2007 pick (like Voracek). Unfortunately, we haven't seen very much in the chances he's had. I don't think anyone's going to miss him after this year. He'll likely hang around the league in the middle 6 for a while, though. agree... I really don't think he has that much to give. I trust that Hak knows what he is doing here. He watches him every practice and maybe they think he is just not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 18 minutes ago, murraycraven said: Am I the only person that really thinks Gagner is not very good? I just don't get the love he seems to attract around these boards. I will be more than happy to spend his money elsewhere when the season is over. He has skill but that is about as much as you can say... You know the fact that we even got a player in the Pronger trade made a vast majority giddy. I think many were hoping and praying that a change of scenenary would do Gagner good. It just hasn't work out that way. Even I will admit seeing him come back in the trade, knowing he was a #6 pick overall, I had hoped that being in both Arizona and Edmonton had not permanently damaged/scarred him for life. Like I said...he was just another piece on a chess board. Just wishful thinking on my part.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 1 hour ago, pilldoc said: You know the fact that we even got a player in the Pronger trade made a vast majority giddy. I think many were hoping and praying that a change of scenenary would do Gagner good. It just hasn't work out that way. Even I will admit seeing him come back in the trade, knowing he was a #6 pick overall, I had hoped that being in both Arizona and Edmonton had not permanently damaged/scarred him for life. Like I said...he was just another piece on a chess board. Just wishful thinking on my part.... absolutely doc... although, I really don't think Hextall wanted him to begin with. he is another jagged puzzle piece that really just does not fit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I still see, there being some potential in Gagner, hoping a puck handler like the Flyers version of Villie Leino before he signed that over priced contract for Buffalo. I did start seeing glimpses of that early in Raffle's game as a Flyer, but not so much now. I believe Gagner can score a descent amount in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 10 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said: I still see, there being some potential in Gagner, hoping a puck handler like the Flyers version of Villie Leino before he signed that over priced contract for Buffalo. I did start seeing glimpses of that early in Raffle's game as a Flyer, but not so much now. I believe Gagner can score a descent amount in this league. I can see him being a 15-20 goal guy. Not useless. Middle 6. Can probably get over 20 with the right linemates. Probably not a consistent 20/50 guy. I just don't know that that fits what the Flyers want/need. At $3.2M he might be a reasonable fit. At the $4.8M he was getting (retained salary from Arizona) I just don't see him being worth the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 3.2 - 3.8 mil is the right side of things where his contract should be at for now. If he can be a 20/50 two way PP/PK specialist as well, then 4.+/yr in salary is something very viable to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 He's going to have to show me a lot more. White, VandeVelde, and Bellemare only gets a fraction of Gagner's salary but, IMHO, are more valuable to the team. Those three need a raise and Gagner needs a pay cut to get down to their level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said: He's going to have to show me a lot more. White, VandeVelde, and Bellemare only gets a fraction of Gagner's salary but, IMHO, are more valuable to the team. Those three need a raise and Gagner needs a pay cut to get down to their level. Gagner has lacked a role on this team and was sent down due to cap issues. He IS a 15-20 goal scorer and WILL get more than VDV or Bsllemare. somewhere in the $3Ms is reasonable. Not sure the Flyers bite. I would bet not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 12 hours ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said: He's going to have to show me a lot more. White, VandeVelde, and Bellemare only gets a fraction of Gagner's salary but, IMHO, are more valuable to the team. Those three need a raise and Gagner needs a pay cut to get down to their level. I disagree. I think Vandevelede, read, umberger, and maybe even white are cancers to play with on the same line. I think you're going to be disappointed in anyone who has to play with those guys. GagneR can play but he needs better 3rd line players to play with. He did have an 8 point game a couple years ago and that pass to umberger the other night was a highly skilled play. If you get him on a small deal worth under $4mill per year, and you bring in some of your younger talent for him to play with, it might not be a bad deal. I wouldn't be upset if he goes though either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 2 hours ago, icehole said: I disagree. I think Vandevelede, read, umberger, and maybe even white are cancers to play with on the same line. I think you're going to be disappointed in anyone who has to play with those guys. GagneR can play but he needs better 3rd line players to play with. He did have an 8 point game a couple years ago and that pass to umberger the other night was a highly skilled play. If you get him on a small deal worth under $4mill per year, and you bring in some of your younger talent for him to play with, it might not be a bad deal. I wouldn't be upset if he goes though either. No way I give Gagner 4 mill a season. I wouldn't even want the Flyers to resign him for 3 mill. The only way i'd even remotely consider him is on deal like Raffl made. Otherwise i'd prefer to move him for whatever you can, he was a throw in on the Grossmann dump. So as Rad would say i'd take an old skate sharpner for him and his capspace freed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: No way I give Gagner 4 mill a season. I wouldn't even want the Flyers to resign him for 3 mill. The only way i'd even remotely consider him is on deal like Raffl made. Otherwise i'd prefer to move him for whatever you can, he was a throw in on the Grossmann dump. So as Rad would say i'd take an old skate sharpner for him and his capspace freed up. When I said under 4, I was thinking closer to 3. That might sound outlandish, but these days, $3M is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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