Vesey to Philadelphia?

[King Knut]

A 23 year old who has never played 82 games does not seem like the wisest investment of 2+ million dollars. Even if hexy had it. 

 

Hes not NHL ready.  That's silly.  He'll be a project.  He may be very good, but he most certainly will be a project. 

 

Plus us it's very doubtful he's get along with Lyon

[brelic]

I think he would be a nice player to have, but he's completely unproven. Meltzer made a good point yesterday that most of these guys end up being middle-six players. Don't forget he's a 3rd round draft pick - wasn't that great to begin with. 

 

 

[DaGreatGazoo]

If the Flyers go the young winger route, I prefer they just leave Konecny up.  He's very close to being ready, and he's significantly cheaper.  Not saying they will leave him up, but I think that's a better gamble than signing Vesey for a $3 million(?) AAV.  

 

**just read max deal is an AAV of $3.775**

[radoran]

47 minutes ago, brelic said:

I think he would be a nice player to have, but he's completely unproven. Meltzer made a good point yesterday that most of these guys end up being middle-six players. Don't forget he's a 3rd round draft pick - wasn't that great to begin with. 

 

He was a third rounder in 2012 because he was committed to college. His stock has risen significantly since then.

 

Ghost was a "third rounder" - was he "not that great to begin with"?

 

For the record, "most" Hobey Baker award winners don't even play in the NHL.

 

37 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

If the Flyers go the young winger route, I prefer they just leave Konecny up.  He's very close to being ready, and he's significantly cheaper.  Not saying they will leave him up, but I think that's a better gamble than signing Vesey for a $3 million(?) AAV.  

 

**just read max deal is an AAV of $3.775**

 

Vesey is 23 versus Konecny's 19. The theory is that he's more of a "developed" player.

 

He's only eligible for a max entry level which is something like $950K + $2.85M in bonuses (remember that BSchenn had a boatload of big bonuses he never reached).

 

He would likely wind up at most $100K more than Konecny who is a $894K cap hit with an AAV of $1.1M..

 

Not sure I want a guy who is already something of a prima donna anyway. The question is somewhat moot as there's precious little chance of him actually signing in Philadelphia.

[OccamsRazor]

32 minutes ago, radoran said:

Not sure I want a guy who is already something of a prima donna anyway. The question is somewhat moot as there's precious little chance of him actually signing in Philadelphia.

 

 

Plus i'm sure Hexy has had a phone conversation with his agent or Vesey himself and has said

 

..."look we'd love to have you, we need some depth at left wing...but i can't guarantee you a spot on the top line or even the lineup. But i can promise you if you come in and work hard and show you you are ready for a spot in the lineup will play you there. But i don't guarantee anyone any spot sorry."

 

And that right there may put the Flyers out the picture....and i'd be ok with that....i'm sure someone like the Bruins or Leafs will promise him a spot and i'm fine with that too. Just not here.

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Plus i'm sure Hexy has had a phone conversation with his agent or Vesey himself and has said

 

..."look we'd love to have you, we need some depth at left wing...but i can't guarantee you a spot on the top line or even the lineup. But i can promise you if you come in and work hard and show you you are ready for a spot in the lineup will play you there. But i don't guarantee anyone any spot sorry."

 

Technically, nobody other than Buffalo could have spoken with either Vesey or his agent before this morning.

 

But that absolutely should be Hextall's position.

 

Regardless, the only person I've seen even begin to speculate that Vesey would come to Philadelphia is Sam Carchidi.

 

Consider the source.

[Hockey Forums]

This topic has been moved from "Philadelphia Flyers Forum" to "Rumors -Trades - Free Agents". 

[RJ8812]

so overrated

 

couldn't care less if we signed him

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Technically, nobody other than Buffalo could have spoken with either Vesey or his agent before this morning.

 

 

Well they have had 10 hours to have already talked to him his rights ownership expired last night at midnight....surely you know GM were up late watching the clock waiting for that to happen.......and then race to call him...and one of those could have been Ron.

[brelic]

40 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

He was a third rounder in 2012 because he was committed to college. His stock has risen significantly since then.

 

Ghost was a "third rounder" - was he "not that great to begin with"?

 

For the record, "most" Hobey Baker award winners don't even play in the NHL.

 

 

 

I was being flippant, for sure

 

But, the general point remains that most of these guys (3rd rounders AND/OR older UFAs, of which Vesey is both) DO NOT amount to much in the NHL, historically speaking. So he might be awesome, and a top line winger. But the overwhelming likelihood is that he ends up being a middle-six player. 

 

To put it into context, in Vesey's draft year (2012), there are 3 significant (i.e. top six F or top four D or top G) 3rd round draftees playing in the NHL - Andersen, Ghost, and Parayko. 

 

There are 3-4 in 2011 (Trochek, Lowry, Dahlbeck, Shore), there are 4 from 2010 (Gudas, Bournival, Nordstrom), there are 8 from 2009 (the only top six would be Reilly Smith and Cody Eakin, plus Tyson Barrie on D), there are 2 in 2008 (Henrique and Lehtera), there's 1 in 2007 (Killorn). 

 

Maybe Vesey is that guy. We'll see. If we get him, great. If we don't, oh well

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

No thanks to Vesey for me. These guys that come out of college demanding top six playing time and max contracts are too much. As well, there's commitment issues with the guy, especially when you consider he walked out on the team that drafted him. Yes, I get the CBA allows him to do so, but it's still an awful way to account and conduct yourself, especially when Nashville wanted to sign him for two years. Let the self- entitled punk stink up the joint somewhere else. I'd rather have players who are willing to work hard and don't want things handed to them in my lineup. They appreciate things more and perform better in all facets of the game.

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I was being flippant, for sure

 

But, the general point remains that most of these guys (3rd rounders AND/OR older UFAs, of which Vesey is both) DO NOT amount to much in the NHL, historically speaking. So he might be awesome, and a top line winger. But the overwhelming likelihood is that he ends up being a middle-six player. 

 

To put it into context, in Vesey's draft year (2012), there are 3 significant (i.e. top six F or top four D or top G) 3rd round draftees playing in the NHL - Andersen, Ghost, and Parayko. 

 

There are 3-4 in 2011 (Trochek, Lowry, Dahlbeck, Shore), there are 4 from 2010 (Gudas, Bournival, Nordstrom), there are 8 from 2009 (the only top six would be Reilly Smith and Cody Eakin, plus Tyson Barrie on D), there are 2 in 2008 (Henrique and Lehtera), there's 1 in 2007 (Killorn). 

 

Maybe Vesey is that guy. We'll see. If we get him, great. If we don't, oh well

 

 

Yeah, I don't give a rodent's backside about Vesey, truth be told. The only mild interest is because of his LW position and the gaping hole at LW.

 

But Johnny Gaudreu was a fourth rounder. Guys' draft value tends to drop if they're serious about playing NCAA rather than Junior and aren't likely to be of any use to a team for several years. Teams will take a "flier" on them to see if they're a diamond in the rough (a la Gaudreau) just to secure their rights and, as you note, they're not risking much to do so.

 

Brian Gionta, Reilly Smith, Patrick Sharp, Jonathan Quick and Ben Bishop (and Ghost) were all "third round" picks.

 

That said, so were Brett Pesce, Eric Gryba, Kyle Rau and Nick Shore.

 

[sekkes85]

The only way I see him coming in is if Read or someone else is move out either with a trade or buy-out.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Yeah, I don't give a rodent's backside about Vesey, truth be told. The only mild interest is because of his LW position and the gaping hole at LW.

 

But Johnny Gaudreu was a fourth rounder. Guys' draft value tends to drop if they're serious about playing NCAA rather than Junior and aren't likely to be of any use to a team for several years. Teams will take a "flier" on them to see if they're a diamond in the rough (a la Gaudreau) just to secure their rights and, as you note, they're not risking much to do so.

 

Brian Gionta, Reilly Smith, Patrick Sharp, Jonathan Quick and Ben Bishop (and Ghost) were all "third round" picks.

 

That said, so were Brett Pesce, Eric Gryba, Kyle Rau and Nick Shore.

 

 

Exactly. He could be a great find, but as a classic example of human psychology, people tend to overvalue what they don't have and undervalue what they do have. 

 

 

[DaGreatGazoo]

5 hours ago, radoran said:

He's only eligible for a max entry level which is something like $950K + $2.85M in bonuses (remember that BSchenn had a boatload of big bonuses he never reached).

 

IIRC, they still have to account for all his money on the  cap hit don't they?  Max entry + all bonuses.....I thought Schenn carried a $3 million+ cap hit--In case they achieve the bonus(s), they have to be accounted for on the cap.  That was the point I was poorly trying to make...maybe I'm wrong.

 

 But why commit that level of cap space to a 3rd round pick, who apparently thinks he's the next big thing..despite not proving much.  

[murraycraven]

let me just paraphrase what bill meltzer had to say about the Flyers and Ves:  "they have no shot..."

 

I honestly think the kid will be a good player but the hype surrounding this kid is way overblown.  he will end up in tronno or boston.

[sekkes85]

This whole process has kind left me with a sour taste.  I understand he didn't owe anything to Nashville from a contract point of view, but from what I read the team continued to give him pointers and check in with him while he was at college and really show they are invested in him.  Then he gets traded to Buffalo where Nashville essentially recoups the draft pick they used on him and it seems like he is set on becoming a FA and doesn't even want to negotiate with Buffalo.  Obviously he is a heck of a college player but I don't see the production transitioning to the NHL.  BEST case scenario is he can become a 2nd liner but most likely a 3rd line two-way winger.    Does that kind of player deserve this much hype and attention?

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

 

IIRC, they still have to account for all his money on the  cap hit don't they?  Max entry + all bonuses.....I thought Schenn carried a $3 million+ cap hit--In case they achieve the bonus(s), they have to be accounted for on the cap.  That was the point I was poorly trying to make...maybe I'm wrong.

 

 But why commit that level of cap space to a 3rd round pick, who apparently thinks he's the next big thing..despite not proving much.  

 

I'm not advocating for committing that money to Vesey. At. All. (And I'm not sure that wanting to have some control over where you play equates to thinking of oneself at "the next big thing").

 

As with most things, it's changed with the CBA so it's not the same situation as with Schenn (I brought up Schenn as an example of bonuses that were somewhat unachieveable - like leading the league in scoring (IIRC)).

 

As far as I can tell (where is @AJGoal? lol)  teams can be over the cap by 7.5% due to potential performance bonuses and any overages due to earned bonuses are carried over onto next season's cap. A 7.5% overage is $5.4M next season so his $2.7M potential bonus wouldn't really affect the cap as the Flyers have just over $1M in potential bonuses at the moment.

 

If a team gives Vesey a performance bonus for being an All Star or winning the Calder (or another trophy) or being top 10 in scoring they likely won't need to worry about it much, either.

 

15 minutes ago, sekkes85 said:

This whole process has kind left me with a sour taste.  I understand he didn't owe anything to Nashville from a contract point of view, but from what I read the team continued to give him pointers and check in with him while he was at college and really show they are invested in him.  Then he gets traded to Buffalo where Nashville essentially recoups the draft pick they used on him and it seems like he is set on becoming a FA and doesn't even want to negotiate with Buffalo.  Obviously he is a heck of a college player but I don't see the production transitioning to the NHL.  BEST case scenario is he can become a 2nd liner but most likely a 3rd line two-way winger.    Does that kind of player deserve this much hype and attention?

 

He did negotiate with Buffalo. They made him a pitch (and may still sign him).

 

His main thing is that he was able to become a free agent and control his fate rather than simply going to whoever drafted him. He took that option.

 

But the AMOUNT he can get is capped on an entry-level deal so aside from finding the right "fit" from his perspective, there's not much to "negotiate".

 

IMO, the reason he's getting all this attention is that it's August and there ain't much more hockey-related stuff for the media to overblow... The media is the hype machine here. I haven't seen anything from the kid that makes him seem arrogant (unless one takes the Preds' sour grapes as unvarnished truth and he had told them he was coming after his senior year (which he and his agent says they didn't)).

 

I understand your "sour taste" though. I feel much the same way.

[AJgoal]

I'm not sure about bonuses. I do know that it was just the one year before the last lockout when you had to account for all bonuses against the cap.

 

I don't have a bad taste where Vesey is concerned, but I don't really care if they get him one way or another. He'd almost certainly help, but I don't think he's going to come in and become a game-breaker.

[OccamsRazor]

26 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

I don't have a bad taste where Vesey is concerned, but I don't really care if they get him one way or another. He'd almost certainly help, but I don't think he's going to come in and become a game-breaker.

 

[flyercanuck]

20 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

No thanks to Vesey for me. These guys that come out of college demanding top six playing time and max contracts are too much. As well, there's commitment issues with the guy, especially when you consider he walked out on the team that drafted him. Yes, I get the CBA allows him to do so, but it's still an awful way to account and conduct yourself, especially when Nashville wanted to sign him for two years. Let the self- entitled punk stink up the joint somewhere else. I'd rather have players who are willing to work hard and don't want things handed to them in my lineup. They appreciate things more and perform better in all facets of the game.

 

I'm in this way of thinking. When a team uses one of their assets to acquire you, you should take it as an honor. The guy looks like he might be decent. Lindros was reviled for turning his back on the team that drafted him...even though their management proved to be a bunch of turkeys. Vesey couldn't carry Lindros' jockstrap. 

[MadDevil]

Why is a player exercising his right to do something that was collectively bargained an insult to the team that drafted him?

[radoran]

1 hour ago, MadDevil said:

Why is a player exercising his right to do something that was collectively bargained an insult to the team that drafted him?

 

I'm honestly of two minds on the issue.

 

I absolutely believe he has the right to do what he is doing.

 

While, at the same time, it doesn't really make me want to have him on my team.

 

It doesn't make sense. It's not necessarily "logical" - it's just the base feeling.

 

And, like Lindros, if he winds up on the Flyers - go team!

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I'm honestly of two minds on the issue.

 

I absolutely believe he has the right to do what he is doing.

 

While, at the same time, it doesn't really make me want to have him on my team.

 

It doesn't make sense. It's not necessarily "logical" - it's just the base feeling.

 

And, like Lindros, if he winds up on the Flyers - go team!

 

 

I agree i am not mad at him for what he isdoing and at the same time i would be pissed if this one of the Flyers prospects....or for better perspective what if Ghost pulled this move all of Flyers would be mad as hell.

 

And as you said if he was to sign with the Flyers? GO FLYERS!!!!

 

Nature of the beast.

 

And right now with absolutely nothing going on right now he is the center of the hockey universe right now....just feed it even more...in fact for all we know he already knows where he is going to sign and this is all for show to (avoid the tampering accusations) and to feed his "me" ego further he could really drag this on for another week or so till he is tired of talking about himself....

 

...in the end knowing he was a Bruin fan all his life i have to say that is where i feel he will sign....the Leafs may have a small chance since his brother and dad are there...combined with the fact they have some good young forwards to play with. But i say Bruins.

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

and to feed his "me" ego further he could really drag this on for another week or so till he is tired of talking about himself....

 

You know, of all the stories I've read and all of the coverage I've seen... I haven't seen much of anything from Vesey himself.

 

Here's ESPN: http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/17308503/nhl-jimmy-vesey-decided-short-list-teams-becomes-free-agent

Vesey is excited about the opportunity to hear what other teams have to say, sources say...

 

And that's in the last paragraph of 12.

 

Newsday quotes five other people on teh Twitters. NBCSports update - all Twitter, no Vesey. SportsNet Chicago quotes Vesey's agent. Boston Globe yesterday? No Vesey quote (although they did have a whopping two last Wednesday). Boston Herald? All Fish - no Vesey.

 

Apparently there was a "Player's Tribune" article last February, but all in all, he's been pretty darn quiet for a guy who has a "me" ego and is looking to "drag this on for another week or so till he is tired about talking about himself."

 

I think the real question would be - what on Earth will the hockey media have to talk about once he signs.