Flyers 2020-21 season

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

As for Philadelphia, I'm guessing that means we're going to see our defense look like:
 

Provorov - Niskanen

Sanheim - Myers

Hoggwart - Friedman

UFA

BC--That is not an awe-inspiring D.  You are hoping/praying that the second line makes up for what might be deterioration of the first given Niskanen's slowdown. I have no idea what to think about the third pairing other than Friedman's growth might surprise us. All in, this tells me "Chuckles" as some say here is thinking, as he should, two years out plus and sees Zemula, York, and others taking the reins and shaping up into really good D. Hagg is transition material. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

55 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

BC--That is not an awe-inspiring D.  You are hoping/praying that the second line makes up for what might be deterioration of the first given Niskanen's slowdown. I have no idea what to think about the third pairing other than Friedman's growth might surprise us. All in, this tells me "Chuckles" as some say here is thinking, as he should, two years out plus and sees Zemula, York, and others taking the reins and shaping up into really good D. Hagg is transition material. 

 

It's not supposed to be awe inspiring. It's the reality that we're going to face. A flat cap for the next three years is going to really limit the club as to what they can do. Honestly, I think the team overachieved a bit this year and I expect a bit of a fall back to reality when the 2020 - 2021 season rolls around. In fairness though, if Sanheim takes a huge leap in year 3 (which is very possible as it seems most players take that big leap) and if Myers continues his trajectory, AV can afford to play the top 4 around 44 to 45 minutes a night and there's no need to worry with the bottom pairing getting 15 to 16 minutes a night. Now, I know that some may think otherwise, but if Linus Hogberg comes into camp and if he has a REALLY good camp (and it's very possible as he played very well in the SEL), then the battle for the third pair could make for interesting, especially if he outplays Hoggwart/Hoggstink/Hoggsucks/you get the picture.

Right now, the Flyers are probably going to stick with Niskanen and the beauty is that if he struggles and if Myers takes off, you can always go with a Provy - Myers pairing and then have Niskanen drop back to play alongside Sanheim. 

[Howie58]

14 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

t's not supposed to be awe inspiring

Dear BC:

 

I did not mean to question your assessment--it is very accurate, sorry if I seemed critical. You raise a very interesting scenario with Linus or "other." AV is into accountability and a re-signed Hagg isn't guaranteed a slot. 

 

I agree on the over-achieve and hope we aren't disappointed.  

[RonJeremy]

9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I do you don't overpay for a 6th or 7th defenseman especially with Ghost already making 4.5 mill to ride the bench and when cap space is already tight...you just don't do it. I'm not the biggest fan of Hagg he has a lot of holes in his game...so now what do they do with Ghost??

 

No way you can't afford to go through another year of yo yoing him in and out of the lineup. Feels like they are painting themselves into a familiar corner...

It’s inevitable, Ghost is getting traded. Maybe we can use Ghost and our 23rd pick to move up  at least10 spots in the draft in the draft and grab a real good player,

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

It’s inevitable, Ghost is getting traded. Maybe we can use Ghost and our 23rd pick to move up  at least10 spots in the draft in the draft and grab a real good player,

I want to package him to get an established, good player. Gaudreau...Nylander, ...Brady Tkachuk (probably not, but I'll hold my breath).

[RonJeremy]

7 hours ago, FD19372 said:

I want to package him to get an established, good player. Gaudreau...Nylander, ...Brady Tkachuk (probably not, but I'll hold my breath).

Tkachuk is exactly the kind of player we need. I dont want another small or soft player, we have enough of those. Yes we could use an established scorer, so if there is nothing available in a trade, then using Ghost to move up in the draft is better than benching him and dropping his value even more like we have been doing. We would lose him in the expansion draft anyway, so its time to make a move. 

[tucson83]

what sickens me on the other board, people hate this move and that move that fletcher is making like to me is ok, the lightning won their second cup in 16 years, what can we can do to be like them instead of im done with this team?

 

thing is we are not the far off, if im looking at the lightning, we have to improve the defense. if we improve the d, we have a great chance of winning the cup.

[RonJeremy]

27 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

what sickens me on the other board, people hate this move and that move that fletcher is making like to me is ok, the lightning won their second cup in 16 years, what can we can do to be like them instead of im done with this team?

 

thing is we are not the far off, if im looking at the lightning, we have to improve the defense. if we improve the d, we have a great chance of winning the cup.

We do not have the talent level of teams like Tampa or even the Islanders . We do not have dynamic players like Stamkos, Kucherov or Barzal who can dominate every time they are on the ice  and can turn a game by themselves.    So , we are going to have to build a team that wins on defense , goaltending and out working our opponents, much like Flyers teams back in the day. In 87 we took Edmonton to 7 games, we weren't  even close to their skill level, but nobody worked harder than the Flyers. We had solid skill, but it was hard work, heart and determination that propelled that team.

 

So, we have a great young goaltender, we have three really good young dmen, we have a mix of good, not great ,young and old forwards . So how can we improve? For starters, we have to dump salary before any real moves can be made. JVR, Niskanen, Ghost ,Jake, etc. Only If that happens, then quickest way to improve the defense is by signing Pietrangelo, that immediately helps cut down our GAA, adds leadership and toughness to our blueline. This would be similar to when we got Pronger.

 

Then we need to improve up front, so the potential assets we have for a BIG trade to acquire some skill like , Laine , Eichel or similar are ....Ghost, Frost, Patrick, Brink, O'Brien,York, Rubstov and our first round pick and possibly Sanheim, if we sign Pietrangelo, because we we would lose Sanheim in expansion draft..We have some good prospects but due to injuries, covid, etc alot of them have lost crucial development time and I dont see any of them stepping in and making a major contribution  this season. Or , if we feel there is a dynamic offensive player in the draft that is NHL ready, then maybe we try and trade up. Maybe we get lucky and draft a Barzal style player. 

 

Or we can keep all our prospects and kill two more years with a decent team that wont win the Cup and hope that some of the prospects turn into star players,  but by that time our veterans will be washed up. No matter what, we need another good defensemen, and some skill and size up front, if we are gonna beat Tampa and the Isles we have to have a hardworking balanced team , because we cannot outskate these teams, we need to shut them down and outhit and outwork them. The Rangers also have some highly skilled young guys and are also gonna be a big threat too.

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

out working our opponents

 

Won't happen till Giroux, Jake and JVR aren't on this roster.

 

They set bad examples to the rest of the team.

 

I know these kids see them floating around out there and during practice and during games not working and skating circles and staying far away from the work as possible, wanting someone else to do the heavy lifting and know they will/can get away with it and it's why we see it creeping into their games as well.

 

It's just a learned bad habit. I don't believe it will change until they are gone. Especially after what i saw this playoff run.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

The Flyers need to quit worrying about what other clubs do. I find that the management of the team are big trend chasers that kills them. They tried the big and brawn like Anaheim, they've tried speed and skill, they've tried deep down the middle, they've tried having superior depth but mediocre goaltending. Nothing they've done works when they try to mirror other clubs or concern themselves with how other teams are built. 

 

The thing is, the fix is so easy, but they refuse to do it. The fix should be : 1) identify what kind of game you want the team to play -> do you want to be an aggressive skating team built around defense, puck pressure and high scoring chances or do you want to be a methodical, tight checking club that forces opponents into mistakes and capitalizes on them. Right now, I watch this club and it's kind of an identity crisis because I really believe they have no idea how they want the club to play. That needs to stop. 2) Once it's been identified how they want to play, do they have the personnel to fit the system. If they have the personnel, then implement the system and don't deviate from it. The one thing that sets Tampa Bays, the New York Islanders, and Boston Bruins, etc....apart is that they play their system and they don't deviate from it. That's what makes them so successful. You're going to take some lumps every now and again. As long as you've got full buy in and everyone is committed to the system, it will work and eventually, it will be second nature to players. The biggest issue I find with the Flyers is that when they get behind, everyone from coaching to players panic and they scrap the entire game plan. Good teams don't do that. They readjust, but they don't scrap. 3) If you're going to go young, make your commitment to your younger players and put them in pivotal roles that you're going to expect them to play in. Don't shelter the kids. That's the biggest disservice they can do. Play them in all situations. There's times when things are going to get tough and these younger players are going to struggle. Let them learn to deal with adversity and let them play through it. When they learn from the tough times, they'll become better players. They aren't there to accommodate the veterans. The veterans are there to accommodate them. That's the thinking the club needs to have. 4) Take your lumps - don't speed up the rebuild. The moment you speed up a rebuild, things have a tendency to break. Take a look at all those teams I mentioned and when they rebuild, they do it the right way. They don't cut corners or take short cuts.

The Girouxs, Voraceks, JVRs have had their chance. Their window was short and that was due to the incompetence of Holmgren trying for the quick fix. Hextall got the **** end of the stick trying to fix the salary cap hell and lack of prospects and pipeline that Holmgren created. The older players can now compliment the young guys and its time for AV and company to embrace them and move forward by putting them into more prominent roles. By the time the younger guys reach their mid 20s, there's no reason to believe that this club can't be a juggernaut. But everyone needs to be patient and I don't know if ownership can do that. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

As long as you've got full buy in and everyone is committed to the system, it will work and eventually, it will be second nature to players.

 

Well right now this is the biggest roadblock. Too many passengers and there is no changing it.

 

Until this is addressed or these passengers are removed or at least their minutes trimmed or they are found another lesser role it won't go any further.

 

Resolve this and change will come regardless of the system or style of play. This a team sport. So the TEAM needs to all contribute.

[OccamsRazor]

Looking back how lucky are the Flyers that Carolina took Hanifin and Jersey took Zacha instead of Provorov. Sorry just being grateful for something going the Flyers way. I hope they don't waste his career like the Flyers did when they got Giroux instead of Sanguinetti.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well right now this is the biggest roadblock. Too many passengers and there is no changing it.

 

Until this is addressed or these passengers are removed or at least their minutes trimmed or they are found another lesser role it won't go any further.

 

Resolve this and change will come regardless of the system or style of play. This a team sport. So the TEAM needs to all contribute.

 

I should mention one more problem - playing time seems to be dictated on how much a player makes. We saw it when Konecny would get table scraps for ice time, yet hacks like Lehtera got significantly more ice time than him simply because Lehtera made significantly more money than him. 

 

Fletcher has to give Vigneault the carte blanche he needs to move veterans into lesser roles, escalate younger players into more prominent roles and not worry about the fact that some guys have $8 million a year deals and they won't be happy about it. That might be enough though to get guys to waive NMCs and be open to being moved. But everything hinges on whether management will do that or if they will back the veterans. After this playoffs, I can't see Fletcher and company being open to giving the veterans another shot. I really have to think that they'll move forward with escalating the young guys.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Looking back how lucky are the Flyers that Carolina took Hanifin and Jersey took Zacha instead of Provorov. Sorry just being grateful for something going the Flyers way. I hope they don't waste his career like the Flyers did when they got Giroux instead of Sanguinetti.

 

...and not just Provorov. The fact we also got Konecny that draft year was also huge. That to me was the start of the reset. Add in Sanheim next draft and the signings of Myers and Zamula and the defense core has been completely reshaped by Hextall. I had issues with the way he handled young players and his fierce devotion to Hakstol, but he knew how to draft. Hopefully Fletcher is a bit more balanced, but I still think the way they've handled the development of Frost speaks out that it's still more of the same old, same old. 

[RonJeremy]

14 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

...and not just Provorov. The fact we also got Konecny that draft year was also huge. That to me was the start of the reset. Add in Sanheim next draft and the signings of Myers and Zamula and the defense core has been completely reshaped by Hextall. I had issues with the way he handled young players and his fierce devotion to Hakstol, but he knew how to draft. Hopefully Fletcher is a bit more balanced, but I still think the way they've handled the development of Frost speaks out that it's still more of the same old, same old. 

We all agree some of the overpaid vets have to go and some of the younger guys have to take the next step.  As Bobby Clarke said we definitely have to decide what type of style/system we want to play. Of course your system has to be based on the level of talent and the type of players you have. We cant do a total rebuild, so we have to build around Coots,Konecny, Farabee and the young guys and have an actual plan as to how players will fit and also draft/trade accordingly. We dont see the chemistry with our lines like we saw with the Islanders lines. It looks like our guys never played together. We have to do a real assessment and build accordingly.  Dont just draft and acquire pieces that do not fit , we need to try to build a balanced team that can compete with any style. The Islanders have a nice balance of skill, size, checking etc. Lamorello knows how to build a team. We need to do the same. For example why are Giroux and Voracek on the same line all they do is pass, guys like that belong with a finisher, oh I forgot, we dont have any .

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

5 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

We all agree some of the overpaid vets have to go and some of the younger guys have to take the next step.  As Bobby Clarke said we definitely have to decide what type of style/system we want to play. Of course your system has to be based on the level of talent and the type of players you have. We cant do a total rebuild, so we have to build around Coots,Konecny, Farabee and the young guys and have an actual plan as to how players will fit and also draft/trade accordingly. We dont see the chemistry with our lines like we saw with the Islanders lines. It looks like our guys never played together. We have to do a real assessment and build accordingly.  Dont just draft and acquire pieces that do not fit , we need to try to build a balanced team that can compete with any style. The Islanders have a nice balance of skill, size, checking etc. Lamorello knows how to build a team. We need to do the same. For example why are Giroux and Voracek on the same line all they do is pass, guys like that belong with a finisher, oh I forgot, we dont have any .

 

We're close. Part of what really irks me about Frost and Farabee was that they should have stayed in the AHL for the year and they could have played on a line with Ratcliffe and build that chemistry. Instead, Farabee was all but rushed, Frost was dicked around and Ratcliffe was given table scraps by Scott Gordon because Gordon forgot that his first responsibility in Lehigh Valley was to develop talent. He tried to establish a winning record instead so he could have improved his chances at an NHL job.

 

Anyways, I digress. I don't think we're far off at all. Konecny is a shooter, Lindblom is a shooter, Farabee is a shooter, Ratcliffe is a shooter, Alison is a shooter. They've got the shooters in the system. The other thing I would do - name Laughton as the captain. One of the few guys that showed up every game in the playoffs. He's exactly the type of player this club needs in terms of leadership. The quiet and show everything on the ice type captains simply don't work. 

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Part of what really irks me about Frost and Farabee was that they should have stayed in the AHL for the year and they could have played on a line with Ratcliffe and build that chemistry.

 

I don't think it would matter until Gordon is gone and they can actually bring a coach in who knows how to develop kids the cycle will continue no one really under his watch got better...there was no prospect who we can say oh he sure got better under Gordon's tutelage conversation...he needs to go...all that team does in under achieve every year...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

20 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Dear BC:

 

I did not mean to question your assessment--it is very accurate, sorry if I seemed critical. You raise a very interesting scenario with Linus or "other." AV is into accountability and a re-signed Hagg isn't guaranteed a slot. 

 

I agree on the over-achieve and hope we aren't disappointed.  

 

Sorry if I over-reacted. I didn't want to come across that way. I'm still of the belief that the rebuild isn't complete though, so that's why I kind of wanted to temper expectations and that a step back is a possibility and that there shouldn't be any surprise if there is. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't think it would matter until Gordon is gone and they can actually bring a coach in who knows how to develop kids the cycle will continue no one really under his watch got better...there was no prospect who we can say oh he sure got better under Gordon's tutelage conversation...he needs to go...all that team does in under achieve every year...

 

Biggest waste of skin this franchise has hired. I still don't understand why they wouldn't hire a young up and coming coach that can come into Lehigh Valley and work hand in hand with Vigneault in terms of development and what he wants from the young guys. It baffles me that this club still doesn't respect the AHL club and basically throws crap at a wall to see what sticks. 

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Biggest waste of skin this franchise has hired. I still don't understand why they wouldn't hire a young up and coming coach that can come into Lehigh Valley and work hand in hand with Vigneault in terms of development and what he wants from the young guys. It baffles me that this club still doesn't respect the AHL club and basically throws crap at a wall to see what sticks. 

 

I agree they are doing their due diligence to collect all this nice depth and talent to fill the coffers with.

 

And have some nitwit guiding them through one of the hardest pro leagues in the hockey world, intending on helping them transition from young boy prospect hopefully into young me with bright NHL futures.

 

It just doesn't add up and i feel it is wasting time getting these kids up to speed so when called upon they can help the pro team skip as little a beat as possible and then eventually catch the NHL coaches eye when they get their cup of coffee and that starts with having a very good AHL coach and staff in place and Gordon is not it in any way.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

That might be enough though to get guys to waive NMCs and be open to being moved.

 

Canucks looking to move Jake Virtanen...i know it might not be a popular move but i would shake the team up and flip them Jake for Jake. 

 

would that fly in Philly??? It would be getting out from under that contract...just an idea Virtanen also only 24.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Canucks looking to move Jake Virtanen...i know it might not be a popular move but i would shake the team up and flip them Jake for Jake. 

 

would that fly in Philly??? It would be getting out from under that contract...just an idea Virtanen also only 24.

 

Hmmm.....if you could ever convince Virtanen to come into camp in shape, I think he could surprise. One of my high school friends is a big Canucks fan and from my time living in Vancouver, I still maintain contact with a number of people I worked with at Shaw Cablesystems and one of the guys is good friends with Virtanen. They both have mentioned that he reports to camp in less than stellar shape. On top of it, Jake would be like Old Towne crew 2.0. I don't see that flying over well. 

The good news is that if Wade Alison is over his knee issues, the Flyers have found a legitimate physical winger with good hands. I'd love he could become a Tocchet-type of forward, but I'd certainly be happy with a better skating Mike Knuble with a bit of a mean streak. 

[intheslot]

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flahr-were-confident-well-get-the-draft-right/c-319216738

 Good Read .. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Wonder what they are waiting on to qualify Nolan Patrick??? He doesn't have any leverage. So make him an offer.

[OccamsRazor]

On 9/28/2020 at 7:49 PM, Howie58 said:

You are hoping/praying

 

Speaking of i know you like your odds Howie...so this is a plus i guess for the Flyers...but we'll see...5th best odds.

 

 

You never know...Bolts got bounced first round last year it worked out good for them this year.

Edited September 30, 2020 by OccamsRazor
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