What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

5 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I don't know how much stock I put in that, considering that last season he played with Del Zotto, who was basically p*ss poor in takeaway/giveaways.

 

It's not just this past year though. It's been several years, dating back to his time in Nashville. And if he's going to want number one money, he needs to be a number one. 

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I don't know how much stock I put in that, considering that last season he played with Del Zotto, who was basically p*ss poor in takeaway/giveaways.

 

Sadly it has been a steady decline since his stellar first season....kind of like Ghost has declined since his amazing 65 point season.

 

@CoachX posted an article on it and it went into detail comparing him to Mcdud when it came to defending his zone.

 

Said article lead me to further research that well was very discouraging and basically backup up the struggled he faced.

 

And we'll would you really want to give up those assets and then be Mcdud part 2 for 7-8 more years I know I wouldn't be able to stand it.

[Cheesesteak]

5 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Just saw it was announced Carolina is letting Hamilton talk to other teams.  I'm betting he'll hit the Flyers because he'll know that they'll spend the money.  Interesting move by Carolina

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, FD19372 said:

According to Sam Carchidi, any trade for Seth Jones would have to include Myers, Patrick, Laughton and a 1st round pick. STEEP, but I would do this anyway and put a nice bow on them.

 

Oh I'd bet Carchidi is the first person Columbus notified about what their wants are for him. 

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Oh I'd bet Carchidi is the first person Columbus notified about what their wants are for him. 

Maybe not, but in reality...it's not really that much to give up for a #1 dman, besides the #1 pick and Laughton.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

38 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Maybe not, but in reality...it's not really that much to give up for a #1 dman, besides the #1 pick and Laughton.

 

But Jones isn't a number 1. The advanced metrics back that up.  He's not even a 2 right now. 

[flyer4ever]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

But Jones isn't a number 1. The advanced metrics back that up.  He's not even a 2 right now. 

Playing defence in todays NHL is incredibly difficult, there are only 5 or 6 guys I would say are really elite right now. The play is so fast, and the metrics have multiple variables. IMHO, Jones is better than anything the Flyers have currently, age wise he is in his prime years, if they can get him extended at a fair price and term I would make that trade. Jones and Provorov are serious blocks you can build around. Laughton can be replaced by UFA.

I'm curious, not being righteous or condescending what the metrics are on the Flyers team that quit mid game multiple times last season? I don't put a lot of stock in metrics, the game is played on the ice and between the players' ears. Zone starts, score of the game, forward lines, matchups, road or home game, 3 in 4 nights, playing through injuries, coach is a dick, all are variables. Getting a player like Jones (I know there will be argument how good he is) in his prime rarely happens. He solves RD issue, and I think he brings accountability to the room, provided the cancer hasn't spread too far. 

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

But Jones isn't a number 1. The advanced metrics back that up.  He's not even a 2 right now. 

That's arguable, but he's certainly an upgrade from Ghost, Sanheim, Braun or Myers. That's not IMHO.

Edited June 15, 2021 by FD19372

[ruxpin]

41 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

That's arguable, but he's certainly an upgrade from Ghost, Sanheim, Braun or Myers. That's not IMHO.

I disagree with this.  He really is not good on defense and hasn't been for some time. And he's no longer producing offensively (though I blame a bit of that part on Torts).

 

I'll take either Sanheim or Myers (crap season and all) over Jones.  And not just because of the cap hit.

 

Ghost at least provides offense.  I really don't want the flyers giving up assets for Jones.

[ruxpin]

50 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

He solves RD issue, and I think he brings accountability to the room, provided the cancer hasn't spread too far. 

What accountability?  What has he done to earn that statement?  What have the Blue Jackets done to earn that?   Asking seriously. Forget advanced stats, the dude was -18.  He's not terrible; I just have no idea where the accountability statement comes from.

 

I don't think he's worth what it would take to win a bidding war and isn't really what we need. Because we really could use someone who would bring accountability, and he sure as heck ain't it.

[OccamsRazor]

59 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

He solves RD issue, and I think he brings accountability to the room, provided the cancer hasn't spread too far.

 

Maybe.

 

So who fills Myers' hole at #4 on the second pair???

 

Flyers don't have another right hand shot that is ready.......please don't even say Braun.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Honestly, if the Flyers are looking for a mobile right handed defenseman who's priority will be defense first, then I would have no problems with Adam Larsson. He goes about his business in a quiet and unassuming manner and considering he played in a **** hole in Edmonton for years, the transiting to Philadelphia should be smooth. Another right hander to consider would be Brandon Montour.  He escaped Buffalo and refound his game in Florida. Another guy who would be a perfect fit alongside Provorov. Honestly,  the idea that the Flyers HAVE to sell the farm is ludicrous.  Those types of deals very seldom, if ever, work out.  As well, as much as I trash Sanheim, I'm also not willing to throw out a 24 year old defenseman because of a bad year.  I'm more inclined to hold the piss poor coaching accountable,  because collectively, Mike Yeo and Michel Therrien have been awful in their handling of young players. I don't think blowing up the defense is the smartest move, especially because there is a lot of youth.  I'm more prone to blow up the forwards though. And yes, if I were GM, I'd listen to offers on Couturier as well. Make everyone sweat a little and realize that your continued spot on the roster is earned and that nobody is gifted anything.  I'd also like to see Yeo and Therrien fired and some young coaching blood brought in to work with the young players. 

[FD19372]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Maybe.

 

So who fills Myers' hole at #4 on the second pair???

 

Flyers don't have another right hand shot that is ready.......please don't even say Braun.

They could sign a veteran defensive d man such as Travis Hamonic for around a million per.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

They could sign a veteran defensive d man such as Travis Hamonic for around a million per.

 

Hamonic isn't coming East he wants to be near his family in British Columbia.

 

So basically now they have another hole to fill in the top four. Not ideal.

[ruxpin]

7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hamonic isn't coming East he wants to be near his family in British Columbia.

 

So basically now they have another hole to fill in the top four. Not ideal.

If we could get Harmonic, keep Myer and forget Jones.  I mean, I keep Myer and forget Jones either way.

[ruxpin]

17 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Honestly, if the Flyers are looking for a mobile right handed defenseman who's priority will be defense first, then I would have no problems with Adam Larsson. He goes about his business in a quiet and unassuming manner and considering he played in a **** hole in Edmonton for years, the transiting to Philadelphia should be smooth. Another right hander to consider would be Brandon Montour.  He escaped Buffalo and refound his game in Florida. Another guy who would be a perfect fit alongside Provorov. Honestly,  the idea that the Flyers HAVE to sell the farm is ludicrous.  Those types of deals very seldom, if ever, work out.  As well, as much as I trash Sanheim, I'm also not willing to throw out a 24 year old defenseman because of a bad year.  I'm more inclined to hold the piss poor coaching accountable,  because collectively, Mike Yeo and Michel Therrien have been awful in their handling of young players. I don't think blowing up the defense is the smartest move, especially because there is a lot of youth.  I'm more prone to blow up the forwards though. And yes, if I were GM, I'd listen to offers on Couturier as well. Make everyone sweat a little and realize that your continued spot on the roster is earned and that nobody is gifted anything.  I'd also like to see Yeo and Therrien fired and some young coaching blood brought in to work with the young players. 

I'm on board with this. I'm hung up on bringing in a winning pedigree, but Larsson or Montour would be fine.

 

I'm not really supportive of trading Coots, but I get the idea behind it.  I don't think he is a problem, though.  There are those around him that... I'd find a way.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

If we could get Harmonic, keep Myer and forget Jones.  I mean, I keep Myer and forget Jones either way.

 

Yeah but it is a pipe dream i think he has a sick kid he wants to stay close by for it is why he has come out and refused to be traded to other teams for those reasons. I can respect that. One of the reasons Vancouver got him so cheap and i expect him to resign.

[ruxpin]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah but it is a pipe dream i think he has a sick kid he wants to stay close by for it is why he has come out and refused to be traded to other teams for those reasons. I can respect that. One of the reasons Vancouver got him so cheap and i expect him to resign.

Oh, he's not coming here. It's well documented he wants to stay west.

 

Sorry, that wasn't me trying to argue for trying to get him. More or less saying even if we could, that's not a reason to get Jones and have to dump Myers. Or even a viable fix for it.  I just think that's a horrible idea.

[flyer4ever]

10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

What accountability?  What has he done to earn that statement?  What have the Blue Jackets done to earn that?   Asking seriously. Forget advanced stats, the dude was -18.  He's not terrible; I just have no idea where the accountability statement comes from.

 

I don't think he's worth what it would take to win a bidding war and isn't really what we need. Because we really could use someone who would bring accountability, and he sure as heck ain't it.

Its wishful thinking, because clearly right now there is none. They quit multiple times the past season. Two years ago was the aberation, the past season is what they are. Slow and soft. Changes are needed, the status quo doesn't cut it, and UFA isn't doable due to cap issues. A little tweak and a 30 year old for a million dollars is just more of the same. 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Its wishful thinking, because clearly right now there is none.

 

Okay, yeah, I buy that.   No seriously, not sarcasm.   I agree we need accountability (which is why I keep yammering on about getting someone/multiple someones with winning pedigree).  I just don't see any benefit from Jones even along those lines.  Possibly especially along those line.

 

Though he is also likely a player who could be tremendously helped by a change.   I just don't know that Philly is place to go to be inspired by that change.  We kind of need someone that brings it with them, you know?

[CoachX]

20 hours ago, FD19372 said:

According to Sam Carchidi, any trade for Seth Jones would have to include Myers, Patrick, Laughton and a 1st round pick. STEEP, but I would do this anyway and put a nice bow on them.

I wouldn't even blink.  DONE! let's move on

[CoachX]

15 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

But Jones isn't a number 1. The advanced metrics back that up.  He's not even a 2 right now. 

In alot of articles ranking current defenseman, Jones is listed in the top 10 best in the NHL. Sounds like a number one to me

[CoachX]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

I don't think he's worth what it would take to win a bidding war and isn't really what we need. Because we really could use someone who would bring accountability, and he sure as heck ain't it.

Why not. If you are gutting this team for a rebuild, this moves pieces that aren't part of that ( exception being a draft pick), amd you get a number 1 to pair with provy

[CoachX]

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I'm also not willing to throw out a 24 year old defenseman because of a bad year.

But you don't want a 26 year old who had a bad year, and is now, and prolly always will be, better than that 24 year old?

[ruxpin]

47 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Why not. If you are gutting this team for a rebuild, this moves pieces that aren't part of that ( exception being a draft pick), amd you get a number 1 to pair with provy

 

45 minutes ago, CoachX said:

But you don't want a 26 year old who had a bad year, and is now, and prolly always will be, better than that 24 year old?

 

Jones has had multiple, consecutive meh/bad years.   The MacDonald comparison is apt.  If someone was okay with MacDonald--and some were--then Jones isn't horrible.   But I didn't like MacDonald, and I don't think gutting for the sake of gutting and "to hell with the return" is a good way to approach this.   And I'm not on board with gutting the team for a rebuild.   I don't believe it's necessary and necessity aside, I have exactly zero confidence that thi is an organization that would have the slightest idea how--let alone ability--to pull that off in a remotely intelligent (let alone successful) fashion.

 

Yes, I'm more patient with a 24 year old with 3 1/2 years of experience (2 of which cut short by COVID and one of which, in its entirety, had the 24 year old and a lot of teammates completely sequestered from the outside world) than I am with a 26 year old who has 9 seasons in him (while the parenthetical above is still applied to Jones as well, there is a difference between someone with 7 complete years under him going into this circumstance than someone with a lot less).

 

Lastly -- and I can't keep stressing this enough:  He does not check the "winner" box.   This is what is required here.  Additionally, if he IS a player that badly needs a change in order to return to some form of success, someone needs to explain to me why the PHILADELPHIA FLYERS would be in the list of top 30 teams capable of any hope of causing or providing that.    I cannot think of any player in the last ten years who came here after struggling elsewhere that suddenly blossomed here. Can you?   Because the Philadelphia Flyers have a decade-long track record of being the first team in this scenario:  the team the struggling player LEAVES, running screaming from the locker room and organization, to go find redemption elsewhere.

 

We need a couple players coming in that are brining redemption with them.   You don't go to the desert to look for water and if you're in the desert dying of thirst, you don't invite someone to come drink what little you have.   You ask someone to bring the damn water with them to share.

 

I don't hate Jones, despite this sounding like it.  The point isn't really Jones; the point is he's not what we need and will only add to what we have.   And it's an extremely poor use of assets if that's the case.   Especially when considering I don't care who we're sending for him, it will require the first round pick.    I'd rather use that pick--by draft or by trade--for something that will actually help anything.

Edited June 15, 2021 by ruxpin