2020-21 Season Post-Mortem

[Howie58]

I suspect the news conference tomorrow will be interesting, particularly if AV finally opens up on why the team regressed.  Meanwhile, a quick take:

 

1)  The question isn't whether Carter Hart returns to form?  We won't know until next year.  Meanwhile, why can't we be the like the Preds or NY and develop bench strength at that position? 

 

2)  Yeah, the D is weak.  But it may have potential.

 

3)  Our forwards are a strange mix and overpaid.  We have no Huberdeau line.  We have a lot of 2nd/3rd line center.  And I believe letting Pittlick leave was a mistake.  

 

4)  I have little faith in our drafting quality.  And I have even less faith in our ability to make round-out trades (like Jeff Carter going to the Pens). 

 

5)  This may be a year we come to realize our near decade of first-round misses and underperformers has come back to haunt us.

 

Thinking back to last year's playoffs, we saw some clear signals against MTL and NYI that this may not be a stellar year.  Did I think it would turn out this badly? No.  But this team's character and talent shortages have been with us a long time.  Last year was probably over-achievement under a new coach.  This year was the real deal. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Howie58

[OccamsRazor]

@Howie58

 

 

1)  The question isn't whether Carter Hart returns to form?  We won't know until next year.  Meanwhile, why can't we be the like the Preds or NY and develop bench strength at that position? 

 

I hope they have a plan on how to protect and help Hart become the guy we think he is capable of being. I want him to be given the chance to return to form of where he was when the playoffs ended last year. Chuckles plan of replacing Niskanen bombed and he will get a second swing at it. But he needs to hit the next one because in my mind he doesn't get a 3rd.

 

2)  Yeah, the D is weak.  But it may have potential.

 

Priority #1 should be finding a #2 to play alongside of Ivan. Not sure how they go about fixing the Charmin Twins...color me concerned with those two neither have progressed like i had envisioned.

 

Will they and why have the taken a backwards step his their development?? Coaching?? Or just a results of poor forward support causing them to play more erratic in their own end looking like this was the first time for them ever placing defense at times???

 

3)  Our forwards are a strange mix and overpaid.  We have no Huberdeau line.  We have a lot of 2nd/3rd line center.  And I believe letting Pittlick leave was a mistake.  

 

Yes this is a puzzling one too....besides Farabee and Allison this position looks to be in flux.

 

I am worried about Konecny and Patrick and where they are headed. TK started off so well but his play in the last calendar year over these two seasons and his disappearance act in past playoff performance leads me to worry about him. And Patrick a -30 wow...i know he is getting back into the swing of things but bro you have to bring it at some point and i just see ZERO fire or urgency in his game. I had mentioned trading him and yes i understand at this point he has no real trade value it is why i would package him maybe in a deal and that would bring some moderate value if a club wants to take a risk and think they can coax his game out of him because i don't see it in Philly.

 

4)  I have little faith in our drafting quality.  And I have even less faith in our ability to make round-out trades (like Jeff Carter going to the Pens). 

 

I suggested last year at the deadline to try and flip Jake for Jeff Crater but to no avail he is now a Penguin. Was wanting him for the Flyers 3rd line center spot and would take anything to just remove Jake....and still will....no really make me an offer.

 

And to be fair Chuckles has only had to draft that so far quality wise i am ok with. York is already here so i have to give him props for that i already like his game more than Sanheim or Myers at the current moment....and that i know is in only a small sample size.

 

But his trading skills see Braun for a 2nd and a 3rd have me worried too. His challenge now has risen exponentially since a year ago.

 

5)  This may be a year we come to realize our near decade of first-round misses and underperformers has come back to haunt us.

 

It has and it IS.

 

And well i think JVR will be a Kraken and well Chuckles needs to find a new home for Jake and can live with Giroux for another year and see how he does and well he may be a good deadline move for 2021-22. But Jake has to go. So moving into next season minus JVR and Jake to me is making progress if this happens.

 

28 Claude Giroux -14 Sean Couturier - 11 Travis Konecny
86 Joel Farabee - 13 Kevin Hayes - 17 Wade Allison
23 Oskar Lindblom - 21 Scott Laughton - 62 Nicolas Aube-Kubel
18 Tanner Lacnzyski - 22 Morgan Frost - 19 Nolan Patrick

9 Ivan Provorov - ????????????
6 Travis Sanheim - 61 Justin Braun
44 Cam York - 5 Phil Myers

8 Robert Hagg

79 Carter Hart
32 Felix Sandstrom

 

At this moment on the last day of the season this is what i have moving forward before any free agent signings. When i look and see no JVR and Jake i smile a little but still a upgrade is needed.

 

 

Thinking back to last year's playoffs, we saw some clear signals against MTL and NYI that this may not be a stellar year.  Did I think it would turn out this badly? No.  But this team's character and talent shortages have been with us a long time.  Last year was probably over-achievement under a new coach.  This year was the real deal. 

 

And last but not least they need a pure goal scorer to be added to the forward group.

 

So since they are besties would a package of say TK and Patrick bring back this if even a younger forward would this be enough??? Or would you use these two to land you your #2 defenseman??

 

What about for say Seth Jones if the Jackets won't to move him...yeah they might not want to trade him within the division like i would want to be haunted by TK every time they play. So who out West would you target for your #2 D man?? I will throw Colon Parayko out there. A right hand shot for the top pair signed for 2021-22 and then a UFA. I am listening for suggestions from anyone because the Blues might not even want to move him.

[OccamsRazor]

Interesting projections if there was a full season.

 

 

So now do the goalies........wait nevermind.

[OccamsRazor]

Wow. I guess I glossed over the fact that the Flyers may have actually had two 30 goal scorers this past season.

 

Coots and Joel. Wow when is the last time the Flyers had two home grown 30 goal scorers?

 

I can't remember. Someone help....

 

And wow Ghost 18 goals 40 points.

 

And no one wanted him on waivers.

 

That is just crazy I think.

 

They should be able to hopefully move in the offseason I think.

[GratefulFlyers]

Moving Gost is a mistake, which I'm sure Fletcher / AV will make if allowed. Gost is finally healthy enough to play the way he wants to, the way he did when he took the NHL like a storm. He will always need to "clean up" his defense but I can live with some beats on D to trade for a 40+ point PP QB. Plus his D is far from the worst for an offense-minded D-man.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 12:04 AM, Howie58 said:

But this team's character and talent shortages have been with us a long time.  Last year was probably over-achievement under a new coach.  This year was the real deal. 

 

I'm not so sure this season is evaluation-worthy. I don't say pretend it didn't happen only that it was so "off" in every imaginable way...something else was going on besides "character" or "leadership" or even "talent shortage." Not to mention any of the other usual intangibles we complain about. Added to the fact that the core guys, Giroux, Couturier and Voracek, all had productive seasons, completely in line with what we'd expect.

 

I know the argument is "a decade is long enough to reveal..." 1) Giroux's weak leadership, 2) Jake's _____ (fill in whatever horrible attribute you like) but there are just too many variables imho to assign blame or conclude "it's X" - "it's Y" - "No it's X and it's Y."

 

I would love to start over...jettison everyone who's been wearing the O&B for more than 5 years. Also disappear Hayes. But it can't happen. So move Jake if you must, hope the Krackpipe takes JVR, hire Goligoski (that'll be Fletcher's Big Move on D) and get ready for another just-above .500 year. I'm afraid that's the best we can hope for.

Edited May 12, 2021 by GratefulFlyers

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, GratefulFlyers said:

He will probably always need to "clean up" his defense but I can live with some beats on D to trade for a 40+ point PP QB.

Guy is making a lot of bread to be a 3rd pairing PP specialist. 

He is not effective on a top pair with Provorov. Maybe the reason I'm down on #9 is who he's been paired with , maybe Nik Lidstrom couldn't have carried that pairing...

In a middle pairing role his defensive lapses become less exploitable and his pay is more in line with that role. 

I don't know if I think he's better than Sanhiem, York, Zamula, or Myers. those are guys with his "game".

He's got value, I like him as a player and person, I don't  think he's someone to keep at all costs. 

He would be an ideal fit for a new team that needs to put asses in seats because he's exciting. 

 

I hope to hell you are wrong about Goligoski- he was always -meh. And meh isn't what the d corps needs.

[GratefulFlyers]

11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Guy is making a lot of bread to be a 3rd pairing PP specialist.

 

But is he making too much to be a 40+ point D-man? It wasn't long ago Mike Green made what, $6mil per and I'd put Gost's D up against his any day. Werenski is making $5mil I think. He may be a more complete player but not by leaps and bounds.

 

So no, not "keep him at all costs" only that his pluses outweigh his minuses - And - as you noted he puts butts in the cushions. He's fun to watch and since the Flyers will hardly be legit Cup contenders next year we need Entertainment Value in a big way.

 

[edit: I hope I'm wrong about Goligowski too...it probably won't be that bad. Then again...Hayes.]

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by GratefulFlyers

[mojo1917]

My take away from the end of year presser was, "we don't know what happened, COVID hurt our team and we don't want to overreact".

any one else get the same vibe?

 

I actually thought @ruxpin summed up what happened extremely well in the 2025 Norris trophy winner Cam York thread.

Things weren't great, then things started improving then a lot of key players got sick and struggled, then everyone's confidence went into the shitter. 

I'm paraphrasing. but there was a team wide funk that I don't recall seeing in a team since I played on a terrible 10-12 morning baseball team.

 

I think the team needs different personnel on the power play maybe the penalty kill too, (not as sure about the PK)

Too many nights this year the special teams let the team down and the PP lacked teeth.

A different mindset- The team was too easy to play against. 

A legit top 4 veteran defenseman. 

Some turnover in the veteran core of the team.  I think I'm ready to be done with 93. 

I think I'd be okay with JvR sticking around. 

Guys need to make the next step in their development, this year has to be the adversity overcome. 

 

I cannot see a full rebuild coming, I do see major players changing uniforms though. 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Too many nights this year the special teams let the team down and the PP lacked teeth.

 

Amen. "lacked teeth" is being nice about it. Oh there were some real nice 3-pass goals, nearly always involving Giroux and Voracek. Some point shots got through for JVR to whack away at them. But all in all I agree it was too predictable and too stationary. Same with the PK where I'm convinced there was terrible coaching or terrible buy-in, one or the other because they got scored on almost "at will" against everyone. 

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Some turnover in the veteran core of the team.  I think I'm ready to be done with 93. 

I think I'd be okay with JvR sticking around. 

 

Some turnover yes. But I find it odd you prefer a totally one-dimensional player like JVR - who was playing a complete game early on (totally out of character it must be said) - over Voracek. I don't sense you share the blind hatred for 93 so I'm curious what's so terrible about a 65+ pt guy with already established great chemistry with Giroux and Couturier? They skated top line only by default, because the Flyers' younger guys weren't ready for big minutes, defending against the best. They're closer now. I still think there's a huge need for what Voracek brings, turnovers and all. (!)

[flyercanuck]

13 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

 

 

Some turnover yes. But I find it odd you prefer a totally one-dimensional player like JVR - who was playing a complete game early on (totally out of character it must be said)

 

 No kidding. I actually liked JVR for part of this season. I was even complimenting him! Then "poof", it was gone.

 

13 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

 

 

 I don't sense you share the blind hatred for 93 so I'm curious what's so terrible about a 65+ pt guy with already established great chemistry with Giroux and Couturier? They skated top line only by default, because the Flyers' younger guys weren't ready for big minutes, defending against the best. They're closer now. I still think there's a huge need for what Voracek brings, turnovers and all. (!)

 

 Voracek makes too much money for a floater who doesn't score goals.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Some turnover yes. But I find it odd you prefer a totally one-dimensional player like JVR - who was playing a complete game early on (totally out of character it must be said) - over Voracek. I don't sense you share the blind hatred for 93 so I'm curious what's so terrible about a 65+ pt guy with already established great chemistry with Giroux and Couturier? They skated top line only by default, because the Flyers' younger guys weren't ready for big minutes, defending against the best. They're closer now. I still think there's a huge need for what Voracek brings, turnovers and all. (!)

I 100% see your point, I do.

a couple of reasons for this;

1 There are times Jake takes over games, this doesn't happen enough for  my taste. His size, skating and vision should yield more production.  

His lack of consistency is maddening.

2 His cap hit number, it's high, I think the contract is to the place where the cap hit is more than actual dollars owed, so a team looking to get to the cap floor may find his contract to not be awful because it's cheaper than the cap number. Thinking about an expansion team with this.

3 That cap space makes making trade or signing a good free agent defenseman more likely. 

4 I'm tired of reading people's bitching about him. By all accounts he's a straight shooter, he does care about winning and his teammates but doesn't dig the way the fan base acts.  I'd just as soon not deal with any of this any longer. I'm fatigued by people's attitude toward him. Let him be someone else's whipping boy.

[Howie58]

After reading this:

 

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2021/05/the-coach-is-back-we-think-and-more-from-the-flyers-season-ending-press-availability.html

 

I was scared or perhaps thoughtful.  Yes, this has been a challenging season.  But one could argue that applied to all teams.  

 

The housecleaning at NYR this week says AV and CF have another year or so to show progress.  I don't think a fourth season of mediocrity will be tolerated.   AV has high standards for himself and found this year personally upsetting--as the journalist notes, he is a straight shooter.  Like the Rangers, I'd say three years is enough to show something.  The cycle of being a year or two away from....has to stop. 

 

Per other comments--we need to think about depth in goaltending, not just Hart.  As for our D--yes, it needs help.  But keeping the puck in the opponents' zone is the best D, and our divisional opponents frequently showed us how that's done.  Stated differently, I wish/hope Farabee is joined by a another winger and center with his attack sense and bull in the china shop play.  That may also mean players who do well on the PP and in OT.....

 

 

[flyer4ever]

This team quit multiple times for games at a time. There is absolutely no excuse for this. NONE. If you're over 25 years old, pack your bags, I will send a cab to take you to the bus station. This is all on you, the so called leadership group. 10 years of the same old crap is enough. I want the GM to retool this team so another ten won't happen. Thats my dream .Alas, the reality is the country club will stay open, the coach will get fired, and the dog bangers will continue to coast along for $8.2 million a year. 

[FD19372]

On 5/11/2021 at 12:04 AM, Howie58 said:

I suspect the news conference tomorrow will be interesting, particularly if AV finally opens up on why the team regressed.  Meanwhile, a quick take:

 

1)  The question isn't whether Carter Hart returns to form?  We won't know until next year.  Meanwhile, why can't we be the like the Preds or NY and develop bench strength at that position? 

 

2)  Yeah, the D is weak.  But it may have potential.

 

3)  Our forwards are a strange mix and overpaid.  We have no Huberdeau line.  We have a lot of 2nd/3rd line center.  And I believe letting Pittlick leave was a mistake.  

 

4)  I have little faith in our drafting quality.  And I have even less faith in our ability to make round-out trades (like Jeff Carter going to the Pens). 

 

5)  This may be a year we come to realize our near decade of first-round misses and underperformers has come back to haunt us.

 

Thinking back to last year's playoffs, we saw some clear signals against MTL and NYI that this may not be a stellar year.  Did I think it would turn out this badly? No.  But this team's character and talent shortages have been with us a long time.  Last year was probably over-achievement under a new coach.  This year was the real deal. 

 

Howie, 

 

I'll address your points like this...

 

1) Carter Hart is still figuring the league out. This is a game of chess. The league figures you out by studying video. You modify your game, and get better. I don't take much stock in his sophomore slump, because the defense was atrocious in front of him.

 

2) This defense has potential, but an awful lot needs to go right for most, if not all of them to pan out. Couple that with the fact that a lot of these defenseman aren't THAT young anymore. I have serious concerns.

 

3) We have a lot of...the word I would use is...vanilla players. They bring nothing REALLY special to the table. We also don't seem to have a lot of players with snarl, grit or toughness, and there is still a place in today's game...undoubtedly, for that kind of player.

 

4) I don't have a lot of faith in our drafting either. The team has no clear identity...are we skill, are we finesse..are we physical? What are we, organizationally?

 

5) I've already realized...a few years ago, that we would suffer for the contracts of Giroux and Voracek. Now, we have drafted players such as Provorov, and for as much as I really do like him..is he a true #1 d man right now? Are we counting on him too early? I think so. Patrick is a flat out bust, and no one can convince me that he is not. The Flyers should have gone away from the conventional wisdom, and drafted another..healthier body, at the pick. They pulled a Roseman, except that Howie usually does this with his second round picks.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

But keeping the puck in the opponents' zone is the best D, and our divisional opponents frequently showed us how that's done.

 

Never said better. Amen and i will have a drink. And it's not even 4 yet.

 

[Howie58]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

 

Howie, 

 

I'll address your points like this...

 

1) Carter Hart is still figuring the league out. This is a game of chess. The league figures you out by studying video. You modify your game, and get better. I don't take much stock in his sophomore slump, because the defense was atrocious in front of him.

 

2) This defense has potential, but an awful lot needs to go right for most, if not all of them to pan out. Couple that with the fact that a lot of these defenseman aren't THAT young anymore. I have serious concerns.

 

3) We have a lot of...the word I would use is...vanilla players. They bring nothing REALLY special to the table. We also don't seem to have a lot of players with snarl, grit or toughness, and there is still a place in today's game...undoubtedly, for that kind of player.

 

4) I don't have a lot of faith in our drafting either. The team has no clear identity...are we skill, are we finesse..are we physical? What are we, organizationally?

 

5) I've already realized...a few years ago, that we would suffer for the contracts of Giroux and Voracek. Now, we have drafted players such as Provorov, and for as much as I really do like him..is he a true #1 d man right now? Are we counting on him too early? I think so. Patrick is a flat out bust, and no one can convince me that he is not. The Flyers should have gone away from the conventional wisdom, and drafted another..healthier body, at the pick. They pulled a Roseman, except that Howie usually does this with his second round picks.

Greetings:

 

Pryor's departure did not upset me, to be polite.  Whether CF and Flahr are better...well, that is TBD.   I am unsure how to classify Patrick.  Was it high-risk, high-return?  Semi-suicide.  What's sad is that Keith Jones was spot on during the last game--the kid has flashed talent.  I guess the question with him is consistency and fragility?  Either way, I suspect he gets a one-year extension at peanuts to further the experiment.  Sadly, I doubt it pans out. 

[Howie58]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Never said better. Amen and i will have a drink. And it's not even 4 yet.

 

Occ: I am still under doctor's orders to stay away from alcohol.  So, I can't join you.  My post-COVID shot reality is still pretty boring.

[Cheesesteak]

Main problem with the Flyers(for years)...imho

 

They are BORING AF to watch!!! 

 

[FD19372]

47 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

Main problem with the Flyers(for years)...imho

 

They are BORING AF to watch!!! 

 

If they were boring and talented, and were winning "robotically", or whatever you want call it, I would be fine with it. Being overpaid, not nearly talented enough, not skilled enough, not tough enough - unacceptable.

[Lucky13]

The thing for me that's so hard to figure out (or tolerate) is how literally everyone on the team at best plateaued or more likely regressed this year. There are one or two exceptions that prove the rule here like Farrabee. 

 

This includes some young guys who showed real promise last year but got significantly worse  like Myers, NAK, TK. Even Provorov to an extent. Hayes was actually a pretty clutch player last year. When the whole team goes backward like this, something's wrong at the foundational level.

 

Even if we say they "overachieved" last year, there's no denying they were among the best in the league for most of the season up until the playoffs. And when they were playing well, I thought they looked like a team that was playing for each other, having fun, making things tough on the opposition, and showing resilience (e.g., they didn't get rattled if they went down a goal or two, they bounced back after a bad game, etc.). Honestly I thought it looked sustainable.

 

So...WHERE IN THE F&CKITY F&#@ F*#^ DID THAT TEAM GO???

 

There are certainly concrete issues with lack of top-end scoring talent and depth of talent/question marks at C and D...But this kind of total collapse and lack of effort, lack of team cohesion, points to something much deeper I think, some problem with the culture. It's sad to say it but I'm on board with all the folks who are ready for a leadership transplant. Even if G is still here it might be time to give the C to Couturier or even someone new ??? from the outside. 

 

Whoever they bring in this offseason to bolster the scoring and defense, they need at least a couple seasoned vets who can show this team's younger players how to lead. I'm hoping for the best but not exactly rushing to renew my NHL streaming subscription...

Edited May 12, 2021 by Lucky13

[GratefulFlyers]

23 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Voracek makes too much money for a floater who doesn't score goals.

 

Voracek's cap hit could be better spent and if he can be moved without retaining salary I say great. But losing Voracek isn't critical to the Flyers' future in my opinion. Unloading Hayes' contract would be my priority. It's 2 years longer and only ~million less than JV. You call Voracek a "floater" but Hayes is the ultimate floater, him and JVR.

 

I can't imagine what Hextall was thinking  handing Voracek $66mil over 8 years. But I'm even more baffled by Fletcher giving Hayes...well, ANYthing #1, but a frggn NTC to boot...just unreal stupidity. (btw I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here; I've read what you think about KH)

 

Voracek doesn't score many goals but he was 12th this year in primary assists with 18. An A isn't a G but it's the next the best thing. And because so few goals are scored unassisted in the NHL I think every team needs a guy who deals out assists and does it consistently.

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

16 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

But I'm even more baffled by Fletcher giving Hayes...well, ANYthing #1, but a frggn NTC to boot

Hayes' NMC "expires" this next season.

He didn't want to be exposed to the expansion draft. 

That demand will be satisfied this summer.

[FD19372]

20 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

But I'm even more baffled by Fletcher giving Hayes...well, ANYthing #1, but a frggn NTC to boot...just unreal stupidity. (btw I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here; I've read what you think about KH)

How are you baffled by it? AV is THE REASON that Hayes is here, and given an NTC.

[OccamsRazor]

32 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Voracek's cap hit could be better spent and if he can be moved without retaining salary I say great. But losing Voracek isn't critical to the Flyers' future in my opinion. Unloading Hayes' contract would be my priority. It's 2 years longer and only ~million less than JV. You call Voracek a "floater" but Hayes is the ultimate floater, him and JVR.

 

I can't imagine what Hextall was thinking  handing Voracek $66mil over 8 years. But I'm even more baffled by Fletcher giving Hayes...well, ANYthing #1, but a frggn NTC to boot...just unreal stupidity. (btw I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here; I've read what you think about KH)

 

Voracek doesn't score many goals but he was 12th this year in primary assists with 18. An A isn't a G but it's the next the best thing. And because so few goals are scored unassisted in the NHL I think every team needs a guy who deals out assists and does it consistently.

 

 

 

 

I would be good with move either but I prefer Jake.

 

We can explore Hayes come next year.

 

One step at a time.

 

I would pick up 2 mill of Jake's salary just to find him another address.

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Voracek's cap hit could be better spent and if he can be moved without retaining salary I say great. But losing Voracek isn't critical to the Flyers' future in my opinion. Unloading Hayes' contract would be my priority. It's 2 years longer and only ~million less than JV. You call Voracek a "floater" but Hayes is the ultimate floater, him and JVR.

 

I can't imagine what Hextall was thinking  handing Voracek $66mil over 8 years. But I'm even more baffled by Fletcher giving Hayes...well, ANYthing #1, but a frggn NTC to boot...just unreal stupidity. (btw I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here; I've read what you think about KH)

 

Voracek doesn't score many goals but he was 12th this year in primary assists with 18. An A isn't a G but it's the next the best thing. And because so few goals are scored unassisted in the NHL I think every team needs a guy who deals out assists and does it consistently.

 

 

 

 

 Couldn't agree with you more. I was driving the bus on the "What the F*** are they doing signing Hayes?" campaign. Never could stand him. He surprised me and played well last season. But I knew the real Hayes, the one ran out of the last two places he played, would rear his lazy ass.