Flyers Defensemen

[radoran]

54 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Laughton

 

Not Laughts! He's the offense's Nick Seeler!

 

[OccamsRazor]

38 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You could possibly at Ginning to the list as well.

 

He has impressed me every chance i have had to watch him i lock in on him because he is the best defensive defenseman they have period...from what have actually seen not read.

 

So until someone else comes around and show me some semblance of know where to be when the puck is near your own net he is my top guy i swear i'm not making this up and York would be my #2 like said of what i have seen with my own two eyes.

 

Till some kid show me more i ain't changing it sure they can change my mind for me but my #3 is Bonk...sure it was a prospect game vs prospects but they both (Ginning/Bonk) held their own.

 

But everything is all subject to change this was more just for conversation about something positive for a change and all for now just speculative on my part.

 

I know i get it some can't handle these types of discussions. I'll steer clear of them.

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Not Laughts! He's the offense's Nick Seeler!

 

 

He is of course is the center piece to any huge franchise altering move to be had.

 

 

Soon Danny will unfurl this diabolical plan and many heads here will EXPLODE!!!

 

[OccamsRazor]

47 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

In the case of Attard, he's already 24 and Zamula and Ginning both turn 24 in 2024.

 

Sure i can see them moving Zamula for a pick or so.

 

Attard sure could be out just as well...

 

Ginning/Bonk

Andrea/Grans

York/Attard 

 

...or he could be on the 3rd pair in 2025-26...the last year of his deal he signed off to eventually make room for insert name...so many variables...ah yes as Michkov coming in should help give us further answers to the future and it's heading.

[Podein25]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:12 AM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Scouting isn't an exact science

 

It's not even an inexact science if were honest.

[Podein25]

51 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Not Laughts! He's the offense's Nick Seeler!

 

 

Lotty!

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

48 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He has impressed me every chance i have had to watch him i lock in on him because he is the best defensive defenseman they have period...from what have actually seen not read.

 

So until someone else comes around and show me some semblance of know where to be when the puck is near your own net he is my top guy i swear i'm not making this up and York would be my #2 like said of what i have seen with my own two eyes.

 

Till some kid show me more i ain't changing it sure they can change my mind for me but my #3 is Bonk...sure it was a prospect game vs prospects but they both (Ginning/Bonk) held their own.

 

But everything is all subject to change this was more just for conversation about something positive for a change and all for now just speculative on my part.

 

I know i get it some can't handle these types of discussions. I'll steer clear of them.

I'm not a Ginning fan, not at all. He's big, but that's about it. He's a poor puck handler and his hockey play decisions leave a lot to be desired. He seems to be an ok skater, but I certainly wouldn't use him on a shutdown role and honestly, that's where a player like him with a limited skill set should thrive. It's too bad that he didn't have Luke Schenn's brain because Schenn should be who he models his game after (but as mentioned, Ginning is a better skater).

 

I think Hunter McDonald might end up being that shutdown guy with size and skating that the team is looking for.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

He's big, but that's about it. He's a poor puck handler and his hockey play decisions leave a lot to be desired. He seems to be an ok skater, but I certainly wouldn't use him on a shutdown role and honestly, that's where a player like him with a limited skill set should thrive.

 

Yeah we're going to have to agree to disagree for now.

 

When i get a chance to see him play again we will revisit this again.

 

And to be clear i am not saying he will be a top pair type. I just laid the blueline out on how i can see each other's game meshing with the other D man type is all.

 

Even if Ginning turns into a 5th 6th type those types are needed even in a limited role right now the Flyers need a defensive type of guy and he fits the bill on where i can see him projected.

 

But if he was to eventually be a security blanket on the top pair with Bonk if it works and they winning who wouldn't agree.

 

First things first i want to see them dominate in the AHL before be even concern much further but fun the same to discuss.

 

As some said maybe that stud guy is landed this upcoming draft it would be sweet.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

As some said maybe that stud guy is landed this upcoming draft it would be sweet.

His name is Sam Dickinson (yes, I'm a HUGE fan of the London Knights program that Dale Hunter has put together).

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

His name is Sam Dickinson (yes, I'm a HUGE fan of the London Knights program that Dale Hunter has put together).

 

Ok heard the name when looking over stuff with Bonk.

 

All you can hope is they find the guys they need however they can find them.

[SCFlyguy]

7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Ginning/Bonk

Andrea/Grans

York/Attard

 

The future looks to be shaping up in a few years.

Like many people here in the Hextall years I made the mistake of assuming all their prospects were going to make it and the defense was going to be set for years to come with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Friedman, Hagg, etc.  Ooops.

 

I'm not going to make that mistake again.  I'm going to assume 50% of these guys aren't going to be here or aren't going to be worth a thing in five years.  Feel free to do it again though if it makes you feel better.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

23 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Like many people here in the Hextall years I made the mistake of assuming all their prospects were going to make it and the defense was going to be set for years to come with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Friedman, Hagg, etc.  Ooops.

 

I'm not going to make that mistake again.  I'm going to assume 50% of these guys aren't going to be here or aren't going to be worth a thing in five years.  Feel free to do it again though if it makes you feel better.

I'm convinced that there are three defensemen on the roster that won't be there at the end of the year. 

[SCFlyguy]

The real trick is management identifying ASAP the ones they think will be future cornerstones and moving the others for picks/prospects before it becomes apparent to others around the league that they aren't going to be impact players.  If you do it at the right time, you can really keep the prospect pool coming - if you wait too long, you're left with players no one wants.

 

Or you can do what the Flyers have historically done - lock those players in for long term deals because they have one good season and the Flyer's need to compete every year requires those players to be good.  Hopefully the Flyers are done with paying based on what they want the player to be instead of what the player is.

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Like many people here in the Hextall years I made the mistake of assuming all their prospects were going to make it and the defense was going to be set for years to come with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Friedman, Hagg, etc.  Ooops.

 

I'm not going to make that mistake again.  I'm going to assume 50% of these guys aren't going to be here or aren't going to be worth a thing in five years.  Feel free to do it again though if it makes you feel better.

 

So sounds like you're fine with projecting and yeah you do your little thingy with your percentage and what not to help you adjust.

 

And yeah they may not pan out just like the ones before them.

 

It's not going to stop me from the projection like i've done, you just do what you have to allow others to continue with the what may happen discussion.

 

Even up to not responding if you have to because we're good with it.

 

And Russia could plunge us all into WW3 before any of it amounts to anything.

 

I still think they have a good bit of the pieces in place they just need to be developed and played and coached up and that will take time.

 

You'll be fine it is trending in the right direction and the speed of it well is the biggest obstacle as of now. 

[mojo1917]

16 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Like many people here in the Hextall years I made the mistake of assuming all their prospects were going to make it and the defense was going to be set for years to come with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Friedman, Hagg,

That's actually 60% but your point is taken.

I remember thinking the team was going to be strong down the middle with Couturier, Patrick, Hayes and Frost for a long time...we all eat it when it comes to guessing which boy will become "the man". 

I thought whatever the team got out of Friedman would be a bonus and the same thing with Myers-- Freidman was a third rounder and I don't think Myers was drafted at all. 

I did expect more from Hagg though, Morin was the "project" pick, if he hit it would be having Zdeno Chara type player, Hagg was the first round talent that slipped into round two. I thought he was the better of the two picks at the time.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 1st picks to play in the league. If they become good to great NHL players that's even better. Sanhiem and Provorov are still playing in the league at a decently high level Hagg has played in the league for a long time too. So I don't think people were burned by thinking that was a good group. It was.

The Flyers have really been hurt by their first picks not working out.  We all know who they are by now.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

18 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Like many people here in the Hextall years I made the mistake of assuming all their prospects were going to make it and the defense was going to be set for years to come with Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Friedman, Hagg, etc.  Ooops.

 

I'm not going to make that mistake again.  I'm going to assume 50% of these guys aren't going to be here or aren't going to be worth a thing in five years.  Feel free to do it again though if it makes you feel better.

It's too bad because none of those defensemen were actually bad defensemen. Morin was injury related, but everyone else on that list was a victim of poor skill and role development. That's the single biggest thing that haunts this franchise. And it won't change until a number of defensemen hit. I'm confident though that after watching numerous young players blossom last year, we'll see that change. As much as I dislike Tortorella's system and methods, he really does have a good eye for talent and development. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and that he can develop players.

[radoran]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 1st picks to play in the league.

 

Not unreasonable, but also very dependent on draft class.

 

Add to that the tendency to pick 10+ and you're generally getting "good" players.

 

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

The Flyers have really been hurt by their first picks not working out.  We all know who they are by now.

 

The Flyers have had "good" players. When, honestly, was the last "great" one?

 

For a five year period to get:

Sanheim

Aube-Kubel

Lindblom

Provorov

Konency

Sandstrom

Hart

Cates

Frost

Farabee

 

As pretty much full time NHL players is... not bad?

 

Highest pick aside from Patrick was Provorov at 7.

 

Other 1st round picks 14, 19, 22, 27, 24, 17.

 

They hit at 24 (Konency), 14 (Farabee), and maybe 27 (Frost).

 

Again, "good" players.

 

The miss at 22 comes with the guys before and after him playing 27 NHL games.

 

Total.

 

The O'Brien pick turned into a second next year.

 

17 was Sanheim.

 

The picks - injury aside - turned out fine.

 

[mojo1917]

11 hours ago, radoran said:

For a five year period to get:

Sanheim

Aube-Kubel

Lindblom

Provorov

Konency

Sandstrom

Hart

Cates

Frost

Farabee

 

As pretty much full time NHL players is... not bad?

The players you've listed are good players.

Out of that list, I would say pre cancer Lindblom was the only one who far exceeded his projection. 

 

I don't think I'm making an argument that the team has drafted poorly, at least not intentionally.

Having guys not play in the league plus not reach or exceed their ceiling like the way Duncan Keith or Kris Letang have...hurts. 

Add to @BobbyClarkeFan16 's correct assertion that the team hasn't developed players very well with a couple of complete whiffs, it's not hard to see why we're "here" *gesturing broadly*

 

The point you make about the quality/depth of the draft and where a team picks is a good one. 

Looking around the league which team's development process would be the best to benchmark ?

For a long time Detroit didn't' seem to run out of good players, same with Boston. The lack of the high-end talent seems to have caught up with the Wings, (I have theories there) but Boston seems to keep calling guys up and seeing them play well.

Over the last two decades it seems the Flyers have done less with the same amount of 1st picks. 

I'm glad to hear Danny Jones® talk about player development as much as they do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

The players you've listed are good players.

Out of that list, I would say pre cancer Lindblom was the only one who far exceeded his projection. 

 

I don't think I'm making an argument that the team has drafted poorly, at least not intentionally.

Having guys not play in the league plus not reach or exceed their ceiling like the way Duncan Keith or Kris Letang have...hurts. 

Add to @BobbyClarkeFan16 's correct assertion that the team hasn't developed players very well with a couple of complete whiffs, it's not hard to see why we're "here" *gesturing broadly*

 

The point you make about the quality/depth of the draft and where a team picks is a good one. 

Looking around the league which team's development process would be the best to benchmark ?

For a long time Detroit didn't' seem to run out of good players, same with Boston. The lack of the high-end talent seems to have caught up with the Wings, (I have theories there) but Boston seems to keep calling guys up and seeing them play well.

Over the last two decades it seems the Flyers have done less with the same amount of 1st picks. 

I'm glad to hear Danny Jones® talk about player development as much as they do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tampa Bay and Nashville have the best development programs, but Buffalo is closing in. Tampa Bay just has incredible luck with forwards who are able to jump in and contribute. Nashville has defenseman development down to a fine art. Buffalo understands that young players need to play, they're going to make mistakes and they're going to learn. If not, that's when coaching comes in. 

 

All three understand that before you assign roles, you develop the skill first and the skill determines what role a player is assigned. Unfortunately, puckhead in Lehigh Valley only understands checking and has no interest in skill development. He needs to be replaced in the worst kind of way.

[GratefulFlyers]

On 9/21/2023 at 3:44 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Tampa Bay and Nashville have the best development programs, but Buffalo is closing in.

The Rangers probably deserve honorable mention too. They are basically a complete team now and though I haven’t kept track of Hartford I’m sure they’ve got prospects knocking on the door. Everybody is pretty high on this year’s 1R choice Gabriel Perreault.

 

Picking Lafreniere and Kakko 1st and 2nd in successive years tends to help the cause (to say the least) but they drafted well before and after. They got a huge gift when Panarin decided it was Broadway or Bust but credit them for creating the situation that attracted a star like him. I imagine the letter announcing their intention to rebuild figured into Panarin’s decision somewhere.

 

… funny how things started falling into place once the Rangers got honest with themselves. It feels like the Flyers have finally accomplished the same…

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

8 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

The Rangers probably deserve honorable mention too. They are basically a complete team now and although I haven’t kept track of results in Hartford I’m sure they’ve got prospects knocking on the door. Everybody is pretty high on their pick this year, Gabriel Perreault 
 

Picking Lafreniere and Kakko 1st and 2nd in successive years tends to help the cause (to say the least) but they drafted well before and after. They got a huge gift when Panarin decided it was Broadway or Bust but give them credit for creating the situation that attracted a star like him. I imagine the letter announcing their intention to rebuild probably figured in Panarin’s decision somewhere.

 

… funny how things started falling into place once the Rangers got honest with themselves. It feels like the Flyers have finally accomplished the same…

 

 

I totally forgot about the Rangers. They have a superb coach in Hartford with Kris Knoblauch. He should have been the guy in Lehigh Valley and not Scotty Gordon. My only hope is that Laperriere tanks the Phantoms and Briere and Tortorella decide it's time to move on. Bring in a good coach from major junior that has a track record of winning and development.

[GratefulFlyers]

7 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Kris Knoblauch

You’re right he should’ve been the Flyers’ first choice. I don’t know whether he would’ve accepted the job though…? Considering where the Flyers were at the time I can imagine him passing on it.

 

I think the jury is still out on Lappy. He’s had some ups and downs no question but I’d give him this season now that the Flyers have restructured their development personnel.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

damn that’s right! I forgot all about him. You’re so right he should’ve definitely been the Flyers’ first choice.

Incredible how this organization has constantly **** the bed with regards to players and coaches. I'm hopeful that Briere and Jones get this mess straightened out.

[Howie58]

I have no idea who will be on the back end in two years.  My take is that the D and G are probably a lot better off the our forwards.  Maybe the forwards take a leap, but remember we were actually middling on goals allowed last year. Our offense sucked.  And historically, our OT and SO percentage are league-worst.  Torts wasn't kidding when he said this was a land of opportunity for prospects.  That, and what might be a trade-happy GM in coming years, makes me think guessing about any part of this lineup will be difficult.  

[OccamsRazor]

I was trying to get this quote by Tort's over Hathaway.

 

No luck I'll try later.

 

So maybe very hard for some of these kid to find a spot in the lineup up much less "climb it".

 

Oh well only bodes well I hope for the deadline.

 

Quiet a few more bodies I'd like out the door.