Flyers Defensemen

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, hmc687 said:

very team usually has at least 1-2 stars but VGKnights showed you dont need a STUD to win. 

I'm not sure what your definition of stud is.

The VGK had Pietrangelo, McNabb, Theodore, Whitecloud and Alec Martinez on the 3rd pair.

That's a 2 studs 2 really good players and a former stud with a lot of mileage on defense. 

Pietrangelo taking 24 minutes a night makes a lot of other problems less significant.

The forward corps on that team is pretty gol-dang skilled too.

 

To me there has to be a top tier minute eating stud defenseman on the team to win. That guy might not show up for another year. 

I do think this team could be alright. Like many others have said, I feel a lot better about what's going on now than I have in quite some time, most recently since Vigneault was hired. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm not sure what your definition of stud is.

The VGK had Pietrangelo, McNabb, Theodore, Whitecloud and Alec Martinez on the 3rd pair.

That's a 2 studs 2 really good players and a former stud with a lot of mileage on defense. 

Pietrangelo taking 24 minutes a night makes a lot of other problems less significant.

The forward corps on that team is pretty gol-dang skilled too.

 

To me there has to be a top tier minute eating stud defenseman on the team to win. That guy might not show up for another year. 

I do think this team could be alright. Like many others have said, I feel a lot better about what's going on now than I have in quite some time, most recently since Vigneault was hired. 

 

 

So well said i don't really need to add any more than but i get what he is saying they won with a pedestrian goalie many will argue as well.

 

But when every man is rowing and a defense like that it can help erase some and make up for quiet a few errors.

 

Flyers do not have that luxury but hey can aspire to build that way. 3 years of Cup experience around the goalie can go along way especially if they are still smart and mobile along with good size.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by OccamsRazor

[hmc687]

On 9/8/2023 at 12:38 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I think they're going to surprise a lot of people. I don't think they'll be as bad as people think they'll be. 

 

Fact is, Frost, Tippett and Cates will also be a year older. Farabee will actually have had time to train. Foerster showed he belongs and can play on this league. Konecny thrived under Tortorella. And even though he's been gone for two years, we're going to have a healthy Couturier back in the lineup and even if he only produces at a 40 - 50 point clip, just his presence alone is going to be big. Add in a healthy Brink and Atkinson and that's a decent top nine and that doesn't include Laughton (who will be great on a line with Poehling and Hathaway on the fourth). The forward group will carry this club.

 

What scares me is the defense. We're hoping that York takes his game to the next level. We're hoping Sanheim bounces back and we're hoping that Zamula can be an impact defender. The fact that Seeler and Stinktolainen are still in the lineup is awful. 

 

The defense is going to be the Achilles heel of this club. And the only thing that will improve that is letting them play and learn. 

 

Even after Hexy spent so much draft capital on defense (and reportedly took Patrick ahead of scout preference of Makar) we have nothing but a 3rd/4th defenseman in Sanheim to show for it.  Feelsbadman

[hmc687]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:37 PM, mojo1917 said:

I'm not sure what your definition of stud is.

The VGK had Pietrangelo, McNabb, Theodore, Whitecloud and Alec Martinez on the 3rd pair.

That's a 2 studs 2 really good players and a former stud with a lot of mileage on defense. 

Pietrangelo taking 24 minutes a night makes a lot of other problems less significant.

The forward corps on that team is pretty gol-dang skilled too.

 

To me there has to be a top tier minute eating stud defenseman on the team to win. That guy might not show up for another year. 

I do think this team could be alright. Like many others have said, I feel a lot better about what's going on now than I have in quite some time, most recently since Vigneault was hired. 

 

 

Very few people would consider Pietro a stud anymore.  He's still a good-great defenseman both most dont think of Pietro when they bring up Makar, Fox, Hedman, etc.

 

VGK seemed to have better depth of GOOD-GREAT players (Pietro, Theodore, Stone, Eichel, etc.) and less of the game-changing elite players (McD, Draisatl, Matthews, Makar, MacKinnon, Fox, Kucherov, Hedman, Crosby, Pasta, etc.).

 

Flyguys have a forward and goaltending group (prospects included) that possibly mirrors VGK development.  And you're right, defensively work needs to be done...that's why I'm hoping for a dreadful season and another Top 5 pick

Edited September 10, 2023 by hmc687

[RonJeremy]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:37 PM, mojo1917 said:

I'm not sure what your definition of stud is.

The VGK had Pietrangelo, McNabb, Theodore, Whitecloud and Alec Martinez on the 3rd pair.

That's a 2 studs 2 really good players and a former stud with a lot of mileage on defense. 

Pietrangelo taking 24 minutes a night makes a lot of other problems less significant.

The forward corps on that team is pretty gol-dang skilled too.

 

To me there has to be a top tier minute eating stud defenseman on the team to win. That guy might not show up for another year. 

I do think this team could be alright. Like many others have said, I feel a lot better about what's going on now than I have in quite some time, most recently since Vigneault was hired. 

 

I dont think we have a true potential #1 defenseman in our system and it's still up in the air if we even have a # 2 either. York and Andre are potentially #2 guys and at worst # 3 . York has to take a big step this season but I'm worried we will ruin him like we did with Provorov by giving him too many minutes and playing him with a crappy partner. If we pick high enough in the next draft, I think that's where our best shot is to get a # 1 dman. The problem is it's gonna be a few years before that guy is able to be a real factor unless we get real lucky. The only other way is using Hart and Konecny in a trade to get a top dman, plus whatever else. 

[SCFlyguy]

4 hours ago, hmc687 said:

 

(and reportedly took Patrick ahead of scout preference of Makar)

This didn't happen anywhere except in Clarke's mind.

Edited September 10, 2023 by SCFlyguy

[radoran]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

This didn't happen anywhere except in Clarke's mind.

 

Yeah "Bob Clarke" would have taken the defenseman committed to an American college over the Canadian junior star center who could make the roster next season.

 

Never in a million years.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

6 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I dont think we have a true potential #1 defenseman in our system and it's still up in the air if we even have a # 2 either. York and Andre are potentially #2 guys and at worst # 3 . York has to take a big step this season but I'm worried we will ruin him like we did with Provorov by giving him too many minutes and playing him with a crappy partner. If we pick high enough in the next draft, I think that's where our best shot is to get a # 1 dman. The problem is it's gonna be a few years before that guy is able to be a real factor unless we get real lucky. The only other way is using Hart and Konecny in a trade to get a top dman, plus whatever else. 

There's a number one and number two in the system. York and Andrae are those guys. The big question is if there's a coaching staff and development process in place that can get them to that level. Tortorella has a history of knowing how to develop defensemen, the question is can he do it in Philadelphia and does he have enough support in place to ensure they make it to the next level. 

[mojo1917]

10 hours ago, hmc687 said:

Very few people would consider Pietro a stud anymore.

Really?

That surprises me. 

The guy plays in all situations. He plays nearly half the game at a championship level.

Vegas didn't win until he went there, St Louis fell off a cliff when he left.

He might not be Cale Makar offensively, but he's a true minutes-eating, game-controlling #1 defenseman.

Cale Makar has some years to go before I'd consider him "better". 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

Really?

That surprises me. 

The guy plays in all situations. He plays nearly half the game at a championship level.

Vegas didn't win until he went there, St Louis fell off a cliff when he left.

He might not be Cale Makar offensively, but he's a true minutes-eating, game-controlling #1 defenseman.

Cale Makar has some years to go before I'd consider him "better". 

 

Pietrangelo is a legitimate number one in the league. I'm willing to bet that you could poll every team in the league and every team in the league would want him. 

[mojo1917]

10 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I dont think we have a true potential #1 defenseman in our system and it's still up in the air if we even have a # 2 either. York and Andre are potentially #2 guys and at worst # 3 . York has to take a big step this season but I'm worried we will ruin him like we did with Provorov by giving him too many minutes and playing him with a crappy partner. If we pick high enough in the next draft, I think that's where our best shot is to get a # 1 dman. The problem is it's gonna be a few years before that guy is able to be a real factor unless we get real lucky. The only other way is using Hart and Konecny in a trade to get a top dman, plus whatever else. 

Maybe York turns into a Neidermeyer type #1, I would not sell Oliver Bonk short either, I think that kid has a lot going for him. 

I don't disagree with you entirely though. The guy we think would be the next Rico Dejardins might still be in junior. 

[RonJeremy]

16 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

There's a number one and number two in the system. York and Andrae are those guys. The big question is if there's a coaching staff and development process in place that can get them to that level. Tortorella has a history of knowing how to develop defensemen, the question is can he do it in Philadelphia and does he have enough support in place to ensure they make it to the next level. 

They might be #1 and #2 on the Flyers but in reality they are not even close to that.   Pronger, Howe, Desjardins, McCrimmon,  Timmons. Those are legit #1-2 defenseman.  I'm not sure York and Andre have that ceiling. If we are lucky they might be #2 guys, more likely # 3. One of the biggest reasons the Flyers can't develop players is because they miscast guys and put them in roles they aren't suited for ,give them too much responsibility and too many minutes which leads to ruining their confidence and their development.  It's been happening for years. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

They might be #1 and #2 on the Flyers but in reality they are not even close to that.   Pronger, Howe, Desjardins, McCrimmon,  Timmons. Those are legit #1-2 defenseman.  I'm not sure York and Andre have that ceiling. If we are lucky they might be #2 guys, more likely # 3. One of the biggest reasons the Flyers can't develop players is because they miscast guys and put them in roles they aren't suited for ,give them too much responsibility and too many minutes which leads to ruining their confidence and their development.  It's been happening for years. 

We're going to agree to disagree. Number one and number two defensemen don't just appear out of thin air. It involves careful development. This franchise knows nothing about development. The way they handled Provorov should speak in volumes. He had a superb rookie year and then it was pretty much downhill after that. They ruined Gostisbehere and they're actively ruining Sanheim. Tortorella seemed to handle York and his development much better and tutorials also has a history of developing defensemen. I'm guardedly optimistic.

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

We're going to agree to disagree. Number one and number two defensemen don't just appear out of thin air. It involves careful development. This franchise knows nothing about development. The way they handled Provorov should speak in volumes. He had a superb rookie year and then it was pretty much downhill after that. They ruined Gostisbehere and they're actively ruining Sanheim. Tortorella seemed to handle York and his development much better and tutorials also has a history of developing defensemen. I'm guardedly optimistic.

That's the exact point of my post. Provy was overused and overworked and put in a position to fail, other than Niskanen ,he was given partners that either sucked or were a terrible fit. He was not a #1 guy by himself ,he was a #2 as long as he had a good partner.  To me, Andre and York do not have the ceiling to be true #1 guys. No amount of development or coaching is going to turn them into Desjardins, Howe or Pronger.  If you met a girl and shes a six, no amount of beer or makeup will turn her into a ten.The best way to develop a young dman is to pair him with a true#1 guy who is gonna make him a better player. The Flyers don't have anything close to that. So if we give York or Andre first pair minutes and responsibilities,  they will be ruined like everyone else.  Is Sanheim or Risto the guys we want mentoring the young defensemen?We need to trade Hart/ Konecny and get a top dman and then we need to draft another dman in next years draft,which is loaded with defensemen.  Maybe even hire Pronger to coach the defensemen. 

[OccamsRazor]

19 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Rico Dejardins

 

I think that guy is Emil Andrea.

 

Well maybe we'll call him the next Kimmo because that dude will truck someone and he ain't big at all.

[RonJeremy]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I think that guy is Emil Andrea.

 

Well maybe we'll call him the next Kimmo because that dude will truck someone and he ain't big at all.

I hope so, but it would be nice to break him into the league playing with a high end defensively sound partner.

[OccamsRazor]

25 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I hope so, but it would be nice to break him into the league playing with a high end defensively sound partner.

 

Yeah....well can't help you there.

[hmc687]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:22 PM, mojo1917 said:

Really?

That surprises me. 

The guy plays in all situations. He plays nearly half the game at a championship level.

Vegas didn't win until he went there, St Louis fell off a cliff when he left.

He might not be Cale Makar offensively, but he's a true minutes-eating, game-controlling #1 defenseman.

Cale Makar has some years to go before I'd consider him "better". 

 

 

I guess I stand corrected, kind of.  NHL just rated defenseman and Pietro is #9

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-current-players-ranked-top-20-defensemen-345580664

 

Pietro is obviously a true #1 but I dont know if that alone makes him a stud defenseman...as in, a player that defines the position.  As you mentioned, the league has placed a premium on scoring and NHL has Makar and Fox #1 and #2.

[hmc687]

14 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

maybe he’ll be “all that” but isn’t he like 5’9” 176lbs? I think he’s 21 so he won’t get any taller obviously. Hopefully he puts on some serious muscle weight otherwise his lack of size may be tough to overcome in the NHL.

 

He has the same build as Makar and Hughes and theyre doing fine

[RonJeremy]

4 hours ago, hmc687 said:

 

He has the same build as Makar and Hughes and theyre doing fine

I dont think his size should be a problem, he is supposed  to be built similar to Timmonen, with strong legs . 5ft 9 and 181 lbs is a solid build. Makar and Hughes are much more highly rated, and were projected as top end talent. I'm more concerned that Andrae is not a top pair defenseman. Hopefully he surpasses expectations. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

39 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I dont think his size should be a problem, he is supposed  to be built similar to Timmonen, with strong legs . 5ft 9 and 181 lbs is a solid build. Makar and Hughes are much more highly rated, and were projected as top end talent. I'm more concerned that Andrae is not a top pair defenseman. Hopefully he surpasses expectations. 

I don't worry about that at all. Scouting isn't an exact science. Teams have different criteria for the players they draft. Watch Andrae and you can see how well he thinks the game on the ice. His positioning is flawless, excels at moving the puck with ease and falls back into defensive coverage with no problems.

 

Here's the thing with a number one defenseman - they don't need to be a potential Hall of Famer or perennial all star. You just need them to be good enough to lead your defense core. That's it. Just let them play their game and figure things out. It's too bad that there isn't a good veteran presence on the back end that could help them grow into their roles (a defenseman like Brian Dumoulin would have been great in that role here), but things are what they are. Hopefully Briere and Tortorella realize they need a veteran who can point and direct and help the young players because we know that Stinktolainen and Seeler certainly aren't the answer.

[GratefulFlyers]

6 hours ago, hmc687 said:

 

He has the same build as Makar and Hughes and theyre doing fine

And Frost is built about the same as Martin St. Louis. Therefore Frost will be as productive as MSL, win the Hart and the Art Ross a couple times, win a Stanley Cup and then go on to coach one of the Original Six.

[GratefulFlyers]

35 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Hopefully Briere and Tortorella realize they need a veteran who can point and direct and help the young players

They do, which is why Briere signed Marc Staal. He will help the team in ways that fans won’t necessarily see, especially right away, but I think this was another excellent move by Briere and the Flyers. Because you’re right the team, especially the D needs help in the leadership department. Like @CoachX says Scott Laughton can’t do it all!

[FLYERS67]

6 hours ago, hmc687 said:

 

I guess I stand corrected, kind of.  NHL just rated defenseman and Pietro is #9

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-current-players-ranked-top-20-defensemen-345580664

 

Pietro is obviously a true #1 but I dont know if that alone makes him a stud defenseman...as in, a player that defines the position.  As you mentioned, the league has placed a premium on scoring and NHL has Makar and Fox #1 and #2.

I can't believe that Risto didn't make the list!   

[ctid]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:55 PM, RonJeremy said:

If you met a girl and shes a six, no amount of beer or makeup will turn her into a ten.

Totally disagree! I find that if a girl is in the 7-8 range, it only takes a slight buzz to pull her up into a 9-10. For 5-6, it requires a bit more work but is definitely doable...for me it's about 3 gin tonics, 5 beers and 3 shots (not tequila)...that'll do it. Anything under 5-6 range, it's still possible to pull them up to a perceived 9-10 range, but that requires close to passing out level, which means there is that sweet spot of around 10min before passing out, where the magic happens and you look at the girl and you are totally convinced that she's a 10.