hmc687 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 50 minutes ago, CoachX said: I'm not sure what this even means. Professional sports team rarely cuts ties with a talented player over accusations. As for public opinion, who cares. It carries no weight. If he did something wrong, the court sytem is supposed to figure it out. If he is found guilty, public opinion will be the least of his worries Teams absolutely cut ties with players over stuff like this. Antonio Brown, arguably #1 NFL WR, cant even get a job over his legal and mental health issues. Colin Kaepernick, Top 10ish QB, cant get a job over his public awareness campaign. For a brief period of time nobody wanted to even look in Evander Kane's direction. These are all star players. What happens in public absolutely effects employment w any (and sometimes EVERY) team. It is 2024 now. Even if Hart is. mercilessly guilty for events in 2018, how should he be held accountable? The courts will do what they do but the league will have a PR stance too. Again, my issue is with how much time has passed. It comes off like a cash-grab, big time. Edited January 24 by hmc687 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkscrewy Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 48 minutes ago, hmc687 said: It is 2024 now. Even if Hart is. mercilessly guilty for events in 2018, how should he be held accountable? The courts will do what they do but the league will have a PR stance too. Again, my issue is with how much time has passed. It comes off like a cash-grab, big time. He should go to prison like the rest of them. It ain’t that hard to figure out. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctid Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 And now the two devils players from that 18 team, have been granted indefinite leave aswell. McLeod and Foote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctid Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I wonder if Makar will be called to report in aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 13 minutes ago, ctid said: I wonder if Makar will be called to report in aswell It doesn't seem that way. The five players are Carter Hart, Dillon Dube, Michael McLeod, Cal Foote and Alex Formenton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 As sad as it sounds, the essential concept of "innocent until guilt has been proven" is no longer valid in today's society. And right now, even if the lame answer of "we don't know what really happened" prevails, once the popular trial has spoken through the wonderful social media platforms that are Facebook, TikTok and Co, it's game over. Any judgement by a legal justice court doesn't change anything moving forward. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, hmc687 said: It is 2024 now. Even if Hart is. mercilessly guilty for events in 2018, how should he be held accountable? The courts will do what they do but the league will have a PR stance too. Again, my issue is with how much time has passed. There is no statute of limitations in Canada for these types of crimes. If found guilty there must be consequences. If the situation was reversed and it was your loved one who had this done to them by these players .... would you not want justice to be served? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 4 hours ago, hmc687 said: How would I have seen the video? The issue is why we're talking about this in 2024 and not in 2018 or 2019 or 2020 or 2021...and so on. The reality is nobody but those involved know what happened, but it is certainly convenient to state it was rape when those involved are assumedly rich. I am not saying it wasnt rape or it wasnt a crime...just pointing out the convenience of the timeline. There was an intended joke (not a good one) that you may have missed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 minutes ago, Math said: As sad as it sounds, the essential concept of "innocent until guilt has been proven" is no longer valid in today's society. And right now, even if the lame answer of "we don't know what really happened" prevails, once the popular trial has spoken through the wonderful social media platforms that are Facebook, TikTok and Co, it's game over. Any judgement by a legal justice court doesn't change anything moving forward. This is clearly the case here, too. Just look at @mkscrewy comments..."he can go to jail like the rest of them". Implications are already that he's guilty. Let me be clear since youre having trouble rationing. Carter Hart, and 4 other players, are being accused of sexual assault. As of today, Carter is NOT guilty of anything so he is not like "the rest of them" because he is not a proven rapist or sexual assaulter. It may come to light that what Carter did was reprehensible and in such case you can refer to him as a criminal...like you already have. It may also come to light that Carter and perhaps all of the players are innocent. Perhaps the woman involved waited years to report the event because now a lawsuit carries significant financial gain. We'll see what the court finds, but I won't be calling for Hart to be thrown in jail "like the rest of them" until the trial ends. Wrongful accusations DO happen. People lie. Money complicates things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 12 minutes ago, Math said: As sad as it sounds, the essential concept of "innocent until guilt has been proven" is no longer valid in today's society. And right now, even if the lame answer of "we don't know what really happened" prevails, once the popular trial has spoken through the wonderful social media platforms that are Facebook, TikTok and Co, it's game over. Any judgement by a legal justice court doesn't change anything moving forward. I don't think I agree with this. If these players are found guilty they should be made to pay the consequences. I'm not talking punitive damages, I'm talking prison, probation debt to society. That will change the lives of those involved. If they are found not guilty, that's a different matter entirely. I doubt the accuser will have enough money to handle the defamation suits that may follow a verdict of not guilty. There are processes in place for the wrongfully accused to receive their justice. The hue and cry of "Cancel Culture" often rings hollow or like a strawman argument to me. In this instance it sounds like a poor excuse is being made for young men who should know better. I will let the court decide now that there are charges and I will accept the verdict. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post hmc687 Posted January 24 Popular Post Share Posted January 24 16 minutes ago, pilldoc said: There is no statute of limitations in Canada for these types of crimes. If found guilty there must be consequences. If the situation was reversed and it was your loved one who had this done to them by these players .... would you not want justice to be served? All context has to be taken into consideration. I was involved in a rape investigation once albeit not directly. A friend of mine was accused of rape and I was with him and the girl the night of the incident. I was not with them st the time when the rape reportedly occurred. I gave a statement reflecting my observations which was that the girl was all over him - because she was. I dont know if things evolved to rape and I never will know. The friend was pretty much ostracized by any woman for being a rapist even after charges were dropped. I witnessed his life sink into alcoholism and lonerism. It was ****ed up. The woman involved filed charges less than 24h after incident and dropped charges less than 7 days later. But it was enough time to alter a lifetime. I dont know what happened to Carter Hart, any of his teammates, or the woman involved. It just reminds me of the time I had to provide a statement. Its entirely possibe everything sexual was completely consensual. Its also entirely possible this was rape like the Duke lacrosse team. It is VERY odd - and perhaps even alarming - that the rape wasnt reported until these guys became famous millionaires. To ignore the obvious motivation is downright negligent and naieve. Hoping for a good outcome for all involved. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 43 minutes ago, ctid said: I wonder if Makar will be called to report in aswell I think he was not in Canada when this event took place. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 minute ago, mojo1917 said: I don't think I agree with this. If these players are found guilty they should be made to pay the consequences. I'm not talking punitive damages, I'm talking prison, probation debt to society. That will change the lives of those involved. If they are found not guilty, that's a different matter entirely. I doubt the accuser will have enough money to handle the defamation suits that may follow a verdict of not guilty. There are processes in place for the wrongfully accused to receive their justice. The hue and cry of "Cancel Culture" often rings hollow or like a strawman argument to me. In this instance it sounds like a poor excuse is being made for young men who should know better. I will let the court decide now that there are charges and I will accept the verdict. Your opinion is your opinion. It does not mean what the OP said wasnt true. Once sexual allegations are made against men - whether founded or unfounded - they experience negative consequences. That is indisputable. As far as defamation...what? NHL players are millionaires. There's nothing to gain in filing a lawsuit that will take YEARS to resolve against someone who is not a public figure or millionaire themselves. That's some strawman stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 minutes ago, hmc687 said: All context has to be taken into consideration. I was involved in a rape investigation once albeit not directly. A friend of mine was accused of rape and I was with him and the girl the night of the incident. I was not with them st the time when the rape reportedly occurred. I gave a statement reflecting my observations which was that the girl was all over him - because she was. I dont know if things evolved to rape and I never will know. This explains why you're presenting the way you are. Context is important, thanks for sharing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Just now, mojo1917 said: This explains why you're presenting the way you are. Context is important, thanks for sharing. It explains why I'm not presuming guilt. Let the courts decide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Just now, hmc687 said: There's nothing to gain in filing a lawsuit that will take YEARS to resolve against someone who is not a public figure or millionaire themselves. I've watched Taylor Swift sue a nobody for grabbing her ass for one dollar. It was the principle. If these guys are falsely accused there is absolutely something to be gained. Their reputation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 minute ago, hmc687 said: It explains why I'm not presuming guilt. Let the courts decide. you saw i typed this very sentiment right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 5 minutes ago, hmc687 said: It is VERY odd - and perhaps even alarming - that the rape wasnt reported until these guys became famous millionaires. To ignore the obvious motivation is downright negligent and naieve. This is incorrect. London Police began their investigation in 2018 and closed it in February of 2019. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I don't think I agree with this. If these players are found guilty they should be made to pay the consequences. I'm not talking punitive damages, I'm talking prison, probation debt to society. That will change the lives of those involved. If they are found not guilty, that's a different matter entirely. I doubt the accuser will have enough money to handle the defamation suits that may follow a verdict of not guilty. There are processes in place for the wrongfully accused to receive their justice. The hue and cry of "Cancel Culture" often rings hollow or like a strawman argument to me. In this instance it sounds like a poor excuse is being made for young men who should know better. I will let the court decide now that there are charges and I will accept the verdict. Well, I do agree with all this. It's more a feeling in my perspective, and the fact that it's very difficult to have significant evidence of any guilt in those type of cases. I'm also pointing out all the negative aspects of rumors along with social media that tend to polarize opinions and influence the role of the true justice (by "true", I mean official trial courts, etc.) On a side note, all this smells like a final "financial arrangement has been reached outisde the justice court" at some point, with all the people involved having the obligation to not talk about it publicly. Then the players will go home with the dust swept under the rug. I won't bet my house on it but it's kind of a feeling I have. It's hard to believe that any of these players will go to jail. Maybe I'm mistaken, but right now I highly doubt it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 36 minutes ago, hmc687 said: It is VERY odd - and perhaps even alarming - that the rape wasnt reported until these guys became famous millionaires. This has been under investigation for years. Hockey Canada settled two years ago. The sexual assault in 2018 has been a known issue for years. These are criminal charges and have nothing to do with whether the players have money. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, hmc687 said: Teams absolutely cut ties with players over stuff like this. Antonio Brown, arguably #1 NFL WR, cant even get a job over his legal and mental health issues. Colin Kaepernick, Top 10ish QB, cant get a job over his public awareness campaign. For a brief period of time nobody wanted to even look in Evander Kane's direction. These are all star players. What happens in public absolutely effects employment w any (and sometimes EVERY) team. It is 2024 now. Even if Hart is. mercilessly guilty for events in 2018, how should he be held accountable? The courts will do what they do but the league will have a PR stance too. Again, my issue is with how much time has passed. It comes off like a cash-grab, big time. As they should, if they so choose. Collin Kapernick was cut and not signed because he was longer a good QB. He didnt start his social justice antics until after he found out no one wanted him Antonio Brown had his issues, and still teams signed him (TB, NE) Evander Kane was hardly impacted and has been playing since But you forgot about Kobe Bryant, who raped a girl, settled out of court, and is heralded as a hero. No way the Lakers would part with him. Or Ray Lewis who was "present" for a murder, only to go on to have a HOF career. Anyway, like I pointed out in a later post, the allegation appears to have been made shortly after the incident took place. Its not the victims fault if those tasked with investigating are incapable, or unwilling, to do their jobs I just think its a sad state of affairs when people put their own happiness, like rooting for a person who can deliver wins/championships, over common human decency 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, hmc687 said: It may also come to light that Carter and perhaps all of the players are innocent. Perhaps the woman involved waited years to report the event because now a lawsuit carries significant financial gain this is factually not true. Don't ignore the facts just because they don't fit your narrative. The victim did not wait years. The years are the product of the investigative machine. Have you even considered that those in those crucial positions were trying to protect entitled athletes? Its at the least as plausible as your argument that its a money grab 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 i went back and read again.... did I understand correctly that this has already been settled civilly for over 3 million dollars? And its after that, that these charges are being brought? That kind of shoots holes in the money grab argument 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctid Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) What's the process here? Have these five players been charged and are they talking trial(s)? If so, it seems to me the Flyers won't be seeing Hart for a very long time, if ever depending on the outcome. I'm not offering any opinions on whether he is innocent or guilty, just hope the fair things happen to all who may be involved in this. However, these things are not always settled as black or white. The "outcome" may be grey, and then what do the respective franchises do? These athletes have worked hard to get where they are, but they are also lucky to be able to have such careers. As such, they are role models, especially for the younger generations. With that comes responsibility, and imho if they land in the "grey" area, it would be hard to completely dismiss all doubt and do franchises really want them then? Over here across the pond we've had so many of these types of cases in football (soccer). Most of them, whether or not the players were guilty or not, resulted in their clubs letting them go (other clubs in different countries usually pick them up down the road). But I do t see that happening in the NHL. Mason Greenwood, Benjamin Mendy comes to mind as recent high profile examples. In both cases charges were dropped (key witness dropped out), but their careers were killed. Edited January 24 by ctid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkscrewy Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, hmc687 said: This is clearly the case here, too. Just look at @mkscrewy comments..."he can go to jail like the rest of them". Implications are already that he's guilty. Let me be clear since youre having trouble rationing. Carter Hart, and 4 other players, are being accused of sexual assault. As of today, Carter is NOT guilty of anything so he is not like "the rest of them" because he is not a proven rapist or sexual assaulter. It may come to light that what Carter did was reprehensible and in such case you can refer to him as a criminal...like you already have. It may also come to light that Carter and perhaps all of the players are innocent. Perhaps the woman involved waited years to report the event because now a lawsuit carries significant financial gain. We'll see what the court finds, but I won't be calling for Hart to be thrown in jail "like the rest of them" until the trial ends. Wrongful accusations DO happen. People lie. Money complicates things. Yes, in response to your absurd question: “It is 2024 now. Even if Hart is. mercilessly guilty for events in 2018, how should he be held accountable?” Somehow you think there’s some kind of gray area here IF he’s found guilty. If that’s a whacked out statement from me then you’re just being dishonest. Edited January 24 by mkscrewy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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