Was the Team "Soft?" Here is Another Take

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

Here is an interesting take on Torts' characterization of the team as soft:

Bailey: Tortorella's Criticism of Flyers is Unfounded (phillyhockeynow.com)

 

One point he makes is interesting.  Errson is being played at a 71-game rate.  Lundquist and Bobo--two of Torts' former goalies, were seasoned and didn't do that.  His other "takes" are cogent.  Coots and Laughton know about playoff chasing and playoffs.  That is not the case with most of the squad.

 

Two things that are worth considering.  The team's drop-off isn't recent--it has been a factor since the turn of the year and increased post-March 8th.  Losing your best defensive pair via trade and injury ain't good.  There's another factor--Torts is all about accountability. Fine.  Why don't we hear about the incompetence of the power play?  We heard about it from Marsh during Torts' suspension--Brad said it sucked.  We haven't heard that from Torts.  More importantly, we haven't heard about how it will be fixed.  And he's been in charge for two seasons.  Our lousy OT effort is another thing he didn't mention.  How the hell is he training players for it?

 

We had a bad second period.  One goal was deflected off a skate of Eric Johnson.  Torts had some legitimate beefs. But some might say he overdid it.  More importantly from my vantage--he might want to hold himself accountable for some of our issues.  

 

Your take?

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

@Howie58

I think this is an interesting topic.

From my seat here in the taint of Pennsyltucky, I thought Torts was blindsided by the room playing like a 2nd year mites after inserting a guy who has been in the USA for 4 days.

I don't think his disappointment in his team can be overstated. That group and their camaraderie was one of the posts he hung his hat on this season. 

He knew he was putting Fedotov in a tough spot, he also knew his guys would rally around the newbie. 

Well they didn't, they mostly stopped playing after Fedotov stoned Barzal on the breakaway. 

I don't know why Konecny was stapled to the bench for the first 7 minutes of the 3rd period either. But he (Torts) was livid, he said all season he trusted that room and then they let him down in the biggest game of the year.

 

As for the PP's incompetence, Fonzie is loyal he's not going to throw his assistants under the bus. He just won't. 

As for the team dropping off in their performance...they played the best they could against very good teams for most of March.

I think when they boys saw MTL and CHI on the schedule they let down a little and realized they're ****** tired and beat up. I don't know how Sanhiem is able to play 26 minutes a night and not be able to practice.  

They over achieved for much of the season. If this stumble and freak out is how Danny and Jonesy and the rest of us learn which of the current guys we keep I think it's worth some histrionics from the coach.

 

Edited April 3 by mojo1917

[Howie58]

23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

If this stumble and freak out is how Danny and Jonesy and the rest of us learn which of the current guys we keep I think it's worth some histrionics from the coach.

Mojo:

 

As my mom would say, from you lips to God's ears.  If Torts has coached them well, they understand that on any given day...Chicago or a dreg will play above their heads.  They can't take anyone for granted.

 

I am glad Ivan was thrown in.  He got a great experience.  We'll see how the team plays on Friday.  Meanwhile, Bruce Boudreau weighed in on the Torts remarks. I would say he was not enamored with this kind of calling out.  

[flyer4ever]

Maybe Torts has lost the room with his everyone sucks but me BS. Wouldn't be the first time, or the second, or the third. Everyone in the room has been in a playoff chase. Everyone. 

When you bench your only top 60 in the entire league scoring race when you are down a goal in the 3rd period of a 4point game in a playoff chase you ought to look in the mirror for reasons .

[FD19372]

They're not just soft, though at times I think they have been that. They're tired, not that collectively talented in all honesty, and the young players are getting their feet wet. They are finding out what it takes to win hockey games down the playoff stretch run.

[flyerrod]

Johnson needs to be in the box with Staal making popcorn. Attard and Ginning played well enough that they should still be up and playing. Go with 7 dmen and pull Nic D. Unless you are playing a team where he is needed. Caveat, I want him on the ice against the Isles for the specific reason of stomping Fox into oblivion.

[GratefulFlyers]

3 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Here is an interesting take on Torts' characterization of the team as soft:

Bailey: Tortorella's Criticism of Flyers is Unfounded (phillyhockeynow.com)

Thanks for the link! I read a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking but not much else. That’s no crime and I don’t begrudge the guy his opinion but what exactly is his opinion? He writes: 

 

Quote

Is this young Flyers team really not build for the playoffs, or is the coach exempt from the responsibility of putting them in a position to succeed?

 

If he’d answered that - assuming (since he doesn’t say) he’s alluding to the perennial GM vs HC debate - now that could’ve been interesting if he had some new, behind-the-scenes insights to share. Instead the piece is basically a laundry list of hindsight complaints and criticisms.

 

He says the Flyers “threw Ersson to the wolves,” noting the team’s losing record since Hart left, and who can disagree? It’s not even debatable that Ersson’s been overworked. But the author never addresses the alternatives, Petersen and Sandstrom, neither of whom showed much promise as reliable backups.
 

Here was a perfect time to explore the competing interests and pressures on managers, coaches in a pro hockey club. Some insight into the expectations Briere has for Tortorella, whether they’ve evolved as the team struggled since Hart left…etc. Omitting this entire sphere of concern and debate is a fatal flaw in an argument about a HC’s effectiveness. 
 

“Tortorella sucks” might be the start of a considered position but without even acknowledging, let alone factoring in the pressures he’s facing the claim rings pretty hollow imho.

[Howie58]

Grateful:

You ask a good question.  I'd say the GM and staff have to provide the clay to mold, and the coaching staff does the molding.  Coaching can probably do so much.  I think FD is correct--this is probably not that talented a squad.  Torts can exhort, berate, whatever.  But he can't perform miracles.  Some of the youngins may have upside.  But right now, they've been fairly silent and we are giving up about four goals a game.  It may be that Torts can only do so much with this clay.  

 

It's ironic that part of our goaltending solution may be a dude drafted nearly a decade ago by a GM dismissed November of 2018.  That is quite a separation between the clay provider and the clay molder.  

 

Per the earlier post, I think the author is suggesting that accountability holds for the players and the coach.  As I said before, Marsh was candid about the PP.  Torts doesn't like critical questions from the reporters.  I would respect him if he said something like, "I know our PP has problems and I am calling in Mr. X for a new set of eyes to diagnose and fix it."  But I doubt that will happen.  

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

If you care...

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

3 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

I would respect him if he said something like, "I know our PP has problems and I am calling in Mr. X for a new set of eyes to diagnose and fix it."  But I doubt that will happen.  

 

Right, and at this point I don’t even care if he tells us or not just bring in somebody who has a plan or at least a clue. We all realize fixing the PP is not the #1 priority but it’s on the list somewhere. They have to get cracking on a solution and the sooner the better.

[Howie58]

Yes, here is the internal media's take on this, with part of the speech.  I wonder if this was done on his own, or with prodding from the organization?

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/tortorella-delivers-message-for-philly-postseason-push

 

As for his take--yes, he bears some responsibility.  And I am glad to hear him say that.  But he can only do much.  My gut says Cam Atkinson and Coots (don't know his injury status) may not have much to give.  Some of the youngins are very inconsistent.  I am surprised the team is playing better than .500 hockey.  

 

[flyercanuck]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Fonzie is loyal he's not going to throw his assistants under the bus.

 

He's made a career of throwing his players under it though.

 

Is it good coaching to keep putting a clearly broken down Cam Atkinson out there just because "veteran"? They aren't ALWAYS your best play, despite what Tortorella preaches.

[mojo1917]

51 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

He's made a career of throwing his players under it though.

 

Is it good coaching to keep putting a clearly broken down Cam Atkinson out there just because "veteran"? They aren't ALWAYS your best play, despite what Tortorella preaches.

Who?

He's not been a guy to call out his players in the press.

He has answered questions about players in a fashion that could be considered harsh.

He's had run ins with players who won't get with his program. 

 

I wouldn't say being a dick to his players is how he's made his career.

 

As for Cam Atkinson,  I think maybe he was playing a hunch that Cam had a big game in him, it turned out to be wrong. That happens. 

If there is a choice between a guy you've seen **** up a lot in the short time you've worked together;! Or a long time friend, a repsected, proven but struggling guy...who are you picking?

Don't tell me the newbie who's been not doing what you want.

 

If it's me, I want to see how the young players respond.  That's the point of not tearing it down. 

Last night was a missed opportunity to learn about Brink or Lyksell

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Who?

He's not been a guy to call out his players in the press.

 

You're kidding, right? The internet is full of the names Tortorella has called out, by name. There's a reason a lot of players hate his guts. 

 

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I wouldn't say being a dick to his players is how he's made his career.

 

No, he hasn't. I didn't mean it verbatim. I just meant he does it, a lot. 

 

The guy is a lot like Clarke. He still thinks grinders and washed up vets are what you build around.

 

I'd like him a lot more if the Flyers had more talent and needed Mike Keenan jr. to wring every last ounce out of them on a playoff run. Getting every last ounce out of a team that should be rebuilt is just prolonging the process. When and if this team ever accumulates enough quality talent to actually do something, Torts will have already worn out his welcome as he does. Of course in Philly that means promotion, so the same guy that thinks Cam Atkinson has something, and that Connor McDavid, arguably the greatest player ever needs to change his game will be whispering in Brieres ear what he needs to build the team thats gone as far as Tortos teams have lately, the 2nd round is as far as he's gone in the last 8 years. Missed the playoffs in half those years. Dave Hakstol has accomplished pretty much the same. That's how "elite" Torts is.

[mojo1917]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

There's a reason a lot of players hate his guts.

Are they soft?

Are they the Dale Weisses of the league?

Who gives a **** if that guy's feelies are owwwey

[OccamsRazor]

12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Are they soft?

Are they the Dale Weisses of the league?

Who gives a **** if that guy's feelies are owwwey

 

They aren't soft.

 

They lack skill and most of their's is piled on the top line and then you only had Foerster on the 2nd line.

 

It will get better with more drafting.

 

They overachieved it happens.

 

I would love for them to get some playoff playing time since the draft pick is already mid round anyway.

 

It is what it is they will have to ride Fedotov I think and let Ersson rest if they want a chance.

[GratefulFlyers]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

There's a reason a lot of players hate his guts. 

 

Sure just as there's "a lot" of players who sing his praises. It depends who you ask. And sometimes a reputation is purposely distorted by someone who doesn't like him - like you did with the McDavid allusion. You left out quite a bit, no?

 

Tortorella on McDavid: I do think he has to change his game a bit. He's talked about culture, he's talked about standards, he's talked about winning. You're not just going to fill the net during the playoffs and outscore teams. You have to play on the other side of the puck," Tortorella continued.

 

I understand even mild criticism of Jesus never goes over well with the faithful. So far McDavid hasn't been able to lead the Oilers to a Cup...is it just possible Tortorella has a point?

 

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Getting every last ounce out of a team that should be rebuilt is just prolonging the process.

 

I hope not but I know you could be right. He does wring every ounce of commitment from his players. Only time will tell if that's a bad thing or an unnecessary thing. I believe 100% that he's changed quite a bit since his NY days...what happened there, when Dubi and a few others soured on Tortorella, the same may be happening now in Philly but I don't think so. It doesn't look or sound anything like the Rangers back then. And you will say..."Just wait." You may be right.

 

[mojo1917]

52 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

They aren't soft.

I wasn't talking about this year's Flyers team.

I think they've been really fun and I've posted here many times, they fight for every inch of everything for all 60 minutes. 

I wouldn't characterize this team as soft.  Beat up? whole 'nother question.

 

I was talking about the players in the league who've been thrown under the bus by Fonzie.

Lot's of them, the Pierre Luc-Dubois, Ryan Johanson who've run afoul of Torts wouldn't bruise a grape in a food fight. 

He trashes them because they are soft, and not great enough to warrant special treatment.

 

Edited April 4 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

 

Just shut him down for the rest of the year.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

So far McDavid hasn't been able to lead the Oilers to a Cup...is it just possible Tortorella has a point?

 

McDavid has been stuck on a team with terrible management. See Eichel after he left Buffalo and won a cup...McDavid is twice the player Eichel is. 

 

And I'd bet the farm McDavid on the Flyers would have them further up the standings than Tortorella does. 

 

Tortorella hasn't led the Flyers to a cup. Or Columbus. Or Vancouver. Or the Rangers. McDavid doesn't get to pick which teams he wants to play for.

 

PS...just checked, McDavid is 12th in the entire league in takeaways. That doesn't scream one way player.

Edited April 4 by flyercanuck

[GratefulFlyers]

56 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

McDavid has been stuck on a team with terrible management. See Eichel after he left Buffalo and won a cup...McDavid is twice the player Eichel is. 

 

And I'd bet the farm McDavid on the Flyers would have them further up the standings than Tortorella does. 

 

Tortorella hasn't led the Flyers to a cup. Or Columbus. Or Vancouver. Or the Rangers. McDavid doesn't get to pick which teams he wants to play for.

 

PS...just checked, McDavid is 12th in the entire league in takeaways. That doesn't scream one way player.

 

I mean this sincerely...if I could argue with any of that I would...

 

All I'm saying is you don't like Tortorella, you never have and I think I can safely assume you never will. Therefore I suggest your take on his effectiveness is biased toward rejecting everything he says and does, which is certainly the way your posts about him on this board read. I'm not saying that automatically makes you wrong. You know I've said more than once you may be right about him being the wrong choice for the Flyers. I think he's changed for the better over the years but whether that's true and whether he's changed enough...we'll see.

 

edit: when Crosby first joined the NHL I used to say I'd rather lose in the Final with Mike Richards than win with Sidney Crosby and I meant it sincerely. You know where I'm going... if the Flyers win the Cup with Tortorella ... just a little food for thought.

 

Edited April 4 by GratefulFlyers

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

Here is a "fair-and-balanced" take that appreciates what Torts has done with a ragtag squad, but also addresses (with a TSN commentator's assessment) the reality that Torts has a tendency to blame others while not necessarily holding himself accountable:

https://clutchpoints.com/flyers-news-john-tortorella-blasted-by-sportscenter-host

 

Invoking Shakespeare, I didn't start the thread to praise or bury Torts as much as express my concern that his initial outburst seemed one-sided.  He apparently sensed that the reaction to Sandstrom's performance 10 days ago was a bit unhinged, and he later apologized for it.  Yesterday's presser may have been along the same lines.  

 

Torts is polarizing.  I suspect we will eventually conclude that the benefits of his tenure (competitive culture) will outweigh the costs (press alienation, some hateful players).  Meanwhile, we may be seeing there's collateral damage along the way.  I am happy that Ranger fans don't outnumber the locals at WFC.  The squad seems engaged.  But some people may rightfully tune him out.  After awhile, narcissism and anger grate on the nerves. 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

4 hours ago, Howie58 said:

After awhile, narcissism and anger grate on the nerves. 

 

For sure, and that's what's changed for the better since his Rangers' days. With few exceptions he controls his anger now before the story becomes all about him, before the narcissism takes over. I believe he enjoyed the drama back then. These days, watching his pressers I'm convinced that Tortorella is gone for good, notwithstanding some "collateral damage along the way" as you put it.

 

4 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I suspect we will eventually conclude that the benefits of his tenure (competitive culture) will outweigh the costs (press alienation, some hateful players). 

 

Nicely done --- right to the heart of the matter --- is Tortorella worth it? I see enough evidence to support your conclusion but I appreciate the way you phrased it because I agree: "I suspect..." is the best we've got for now.