Bertmega Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @orange_crushFair enough. But from a contract standpoint, offering Weber 110mm over 14 years = unmovable if Weber did not pan out (Pronger and Bryzgalov seem to come to mind)Jake Voracek at 4 years 4.25 / year is very movable (JvR seems to come to mind).Not from a production point rather a contract point, this deal is fair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange_crush Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @orange_crushFair enough. But from a contract standpoint, offering Weber 110mm over 14 years = unmovable if Weber did not pan out (Pronger and Bryzgalov seem to come to mind)Jake Voracek at 4 years 4.25 / year is very movable (JvR seems to come to mind).Not from a production point rather a contract point, this deal is fair.I guess since Leino makes 4.5 mill it could be called fair.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Good signing. Jake is going to be an important piece of the Flyers puzzle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kaptan Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think anyone who doesn't like this deal needs to understand that market values change over time.Everybody who remembers Hartnell's contract when he signed it was saying he was overpaid at the time. Nobody would agree with that now. I think some of this we overpaid for x player stuff is basing their opinion on the reality of the market 3 or 4 years ago. Look at Carle's contract. Hell, even Briere's contract doesn't seem as unreasonable now as it used to considering it wasn't a 10+ year deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think anyone who doesn't like this deal needs to understand that market values change over time.Everybody who remembers Hartnell's contract when he signed it was saying he was overpaid at the time. Nobody would agree with that now. I think some of this we overpaid for x player stuff is basing their opinion on the reality of the market 3 or 4 years ago. Look at Carle's contract. Hell, even Briere's contract doesn't seem as unreasonable now as it used to considering it wasn't a 10+ year deal.Yeah, you hope that when you sign a guy to a deal he's slightly "overpaid" on the cap at the start and is a "value" by the end.Hartnell is a good example. JVR's deal, paying him $2.5M (IIRC) next season and rising for duration of contract was another.Giroux will have a big truckload of money backed up to his door. There is nothing anyone can do about his compensation until after this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindbergh31 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 these salaries are out of control..no wonder theres going to be a lockout...Jake has raw talent but is not at this level yet..You're right the salaries have gotten out of control again in the NHL, Voracek is making less than Kris Versteeg will, so what's that tell you about salaries. I'm sure there will be another lockout and there won't be any hockey until January. So I guess Nashville will be in a deficit shelling out $13 million for Weber's first bonus payment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH1FlyersFan Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think everyone is really overvaluing this guy..but we'll see..Could be, OC. But I think there's a pretty good upside. In Columbus the book on him was he was a little lazy, wasn't working hard enough, wasn't staying in shape. I think from what we've already seen, that's changed 180 degrees since he's come to Philly. And he'll only get better. His teammates will challenge him, the coaching staff will challenge him, the fans will. He's in a much more competitive environment with a team that has great potential and skill. A far cry from the Blue Jackets. That will boost his confidence in himself and his playing ability. He could explode (in a good way) into this new contract. And these are the right conditions to make that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedZep Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) @orange_crush Voracek got a fair, market value contract based on present and future production. This is a real nice deal for us, you are obviously in the minority here...I don't think you have a firm concept of fair market value.I think $4250000 for playing a game is far too much for any person. Think about what Hockey salaries were 10 years ago. Or that of any sport. Now contrast that with the average fan. Sports figures are making 5 to 10 times what they were in the '90s. Tickets have gone from $20 for a seat to $100 or more. Despite the down economy, I've gotten a few decent raises, but not 5 times what I was making 10 years ago. Most of us joes haven't.Cole Hamels will make about $750,000 per game started. And chances are he won't have to even finish most of them. Jake will "only" make about $52,000, assuming he plays 82 games. But he'll only actually play 20 minutes, maybe.I know it is "what the market will bear" but it increasingly is a way overpriced market. It's not just sports either. The cost of ALL entertainment, movies, Disney World, liquor, cigarettes, etc. has skyrocketed way beyond the average increase in wages. I'm not really sure how I got off tangent like this, and now I'm going to pay $12 for an excellent three course lunch, which is reasonable, but also pay $4.50 a beer, which is not. Edited July 26, 2012 by TedZep 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think everyone is really overvaluing this guy..but we'll see..IMHO, you are being negative for the sake of being negative but you most assuredly are allowed to have your opinion like anyone else. The biggest problem here is we will have long ago forgotten about this thread 3 years from now when it can be proved one way or another... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH1FlyersFan Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think $4250000 for playing a game is far too much for any person. Think about what Hockey salaries were 10 years ago. Or that of any sport. Now contrast that with the average fan. Sports figures are making 5 to 10 times what they were in the '90s. Tickets have gone from $20 for a seat to $100 or more. Despite the down economy, I've gotten a few decent raises, but not 5 times what I was making 10 years ago. Most of us joes haven't.Cole Hamels will make about $750,000 per game started. And chances are he won't have to even finish most of them. Jake will "only" make about $52,000, assuming he plays 82 games. But he'll only actually play 20 minutes, maybe.I know it is "what the market will bear" but it increasingly is a way overpriced market. It's not just sports either. The cost of ALL entertainment, movies, Disney World, liquor, cigarettes, etc. has skyrocketed way beyond the average increase in wages. I'm not really sure how I got off tangent like this, and now I'm going to pay $12 for an excellent three course lunch, which is reasonable, but also pay $4.50 a beer, which is not.Well, geez. Thanks for putting things into perspective and ruining my morning. I'll just keep my Flyers hat covered head buried in the sand, thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGreatGazoo Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Does everyone realize that Voracek had the exact same point total as Briere last year? Oh, and Voracek had 2 more goals. Playing 3rd line mins, and not seeing regular PP shifts.Carry on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kaptan Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Does everyone realize that Voracek had the exact same point total as Briere last year? Oh, and Voracek had 2 more goals. Playing 3rd line mins, and not seeing regular PP shifts.Carry on.....This is true but in all fairness I think we all recognize that Danny had a down year that really isn't indicative of how good he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @TedZep Agreed Ted, inflation is out of control. Take this on for size....I quite often budget 100 bucks for groceries on most weeks. In an effort to stay within my 100 dollar guideline (I can afford more, just like to keep it at a minimum for budget sake) I find myself cutting out certain items. For instance, I no longer buy cereal and milk on a regular basis. Why....because it would cost 10% of my weekly budget. Another skyrocketing item is bread. The lowest price I can get a loaf of bread is $2.50. That's for the no frills, no name bread. Some whole wheat bread is actually 5 bucks a LOAF!!! So again, to buy bread and lunchmeat....another 10% of my weekly budget...just not worth it. It's worse on Canadians that Americans. Having the luxury of living next to Detroit, I see the sale prices over there all the time...it's much, much cheaper to buy over there. Why I wonder, because our money is on even par with yours, or actually more valuable depending on the day. Free trade is not working out for us in this regard. Canadian retailers are feeling the heat for their inflated prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGreatGazoo Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @The_KaptanAgreed he had a down year. But Briere's regular season high with the Flyers is 72 points. I don't think it's a reach, in any way, to think Voracek can get mid 60's to mid 70's point totals next year, playing top line with Giroux. If he does that, he is market value at his current salary contract. I am not saying Voracek is > than Danny or vice versa...simply stating the point totals are going to be similar IMO this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @TedZep Agreed Ted, inflation is out of control. Take this on for size....I quite often budget 100 bucks for groceries on most weeks. In an effort to stay within my 100 dollar guideline (I can afford more, just like to keep it at a minimum for budget sake) I find myself cutting out certain items. For instance, I no longer buy cereal and milk on a regular basis. Why....because it would cost 10% of my weekly budget. Another skyrocketing item is bread. The lowest price I can get a loaf of bread is $2.50. That's for the no frills, no name bread. Some whole wheat bread is actually 5 bucks a LOAF!!! So again, to buy bread and lunchmeat....another 10% of my weekly budget...just not worth it. It's worse on Canadians that Americans. Having the luxury of living next to Detroit, I see the sale prices over there all the time...it's much, much cheaper to buy over there. Why I wonder, because our money is on even par with yours, or actually more valuable depending on the day. Free trade is not working out for us in this regard. Canadian retailers are feeling the heat for their inflated prices.It breaks down some that things are taxed differently in the states than in Canada. Some things can appear more expensive because they are collecting revenue which things on the other side of the border don't collect.Also, with your money at par, it makes more sense to go across the border, if it's convenient for you and you have the time. My mom will go across to Jersey and fill the tank, go grocery shopping, etc. and probably winds up spending more because of the gas and tolls than she saves.But gas is cheaper in NJ than PA because there are lower gas taxes. And PA is cheaper than NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange_crush Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Could be, OC. But I think there's a pretty good upside. In Columbus the book on him was he was a little lazy, wasn't working hard enough, wasn't staying in shape. I think from what we've already seen, that's changed 180 degrees since he's come to Philly. And he'll only get better. His teammates will challenge him, the coaching staff will challenge him, the fans will. He's in a much more competitive environment with a team that has great potential and skill. A far cry from the Blue Jackets. That will boost his confidence in himself and his playing ability. He could explode (in a good way) into this new contract. And these are the right conditions to make that happen.the downside could be if he really is lazy now that he's got the big contract there is no incentive to play hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange_crush Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 IMHO, you are being negative for the sake of being negative but you most assuredly are allowed to have your opinion like anyone else. The biggest problem here is we will have long ago forgotten about this thread 3 years from now when it can be proved one way or another...I'm not being negative I'm being realistic..being a long time Flyers fan we've seen hundreds of guys like Jake never amount to anything and never deliver a cup.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @orange_crush Jake is a nice top 6 forward. I expect 65-70 pts from him next year. He's due to make a big jump production wise, He's entering his 5th full year in the league, but only his second on a real team with real players. Despite the years behind him in the league, he only turns 23 on August 15th. This means to a certain extent, he's been learning on the fly. This is the year it all catches up to him and he's allowed to become comfortable with the speed of the NHL. This will make his playmaking and vision even bigger pluses than previous seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange_crush Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @orange_crush Jake is a nice top 6 forward. I expect 65-70 pts from him next year. He's due to make a big jump production wise, He's entering his 5th full year in the league, but only his second on a real team with real players. Despite the years behind him in the league, he only turns 23 on August 15th. This means to a certain extent, he's been learning on the fly. This is the year it all catches up to him and he's allowed to become comfortable with the speed of the NHL. This will make his playmaking and vision even bigger pluses than previous seasons.Jammer your usually one of the best posters on here but to project Jake getting 70 points this year is a bit of a reach..imo.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @orange_crush I guess we will see huh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 these salaries are out of control..no wonder theres going to be a lockout...Jake has raw talent but is not at this level yet..The salaries are wacked. Raises like these is what drives teh market insane. But what choice is there, really? Players either get paid by their own teams or they go play someplace else. Would you really like the concept of losing Jake after we lost Jagr, JVR and lost on Weber, Parise and Suter?Sure, given Jake's production so far, it's probably more than he deserves per se, but again, that's the cost of doing busines in the NHL these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I'm not being negative I'm being realistic..being a long time Flyers fan we've seen hundreds of guys like Jake never amount to anything and never deliver a cup..Yeah, I got 40 years under my belt to. But why be down on Vors when he hasn't gotten a chance yet on the Flyers. He had a good season playing mostly 3rd line minutes. And, consider this...Just consider it... are you projecting your assumtions because you have so dissapointed??? Kinda like grief clouds things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Jake is a nice top 6 forward. I expect 65-70 pts from him next year. This may be a bit ambitious for Jake. I think much - if not everything - will depend on who he will play with. If he plays with Giroux, his production is due to be higher than if he plays with Danny Boy. He's been a consistent low-50's point scorer. So to expect a 10 points jump is not so outrageous at all. But I don't know if we should expect him to break the 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @Mad Dog Well, his first 3 years were spent with the lowly Jackets. Last year, he was getting used to a new system and a new city. A 20 point jump happens all the time when a guy turns 23. Being that young and entering his 5th full year is going to play to our advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Nice deal for Voracek....he got a bit more than I thought he would, but let's face it, our second best pure offensive threat after G. Will be nice to watch him develop, 4 years takes him right into his prime.He's our 2nd best offensive threat???I respectfully disagree.Glad he's re-signed, but that is a lot of money for a guy who has yet to score even 20 goals in a season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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