Lavy in trouble or does the front office not care?

[ruxpin]

Sorry for the overly dramatic title.

Here's the question:

If the Flyers continue as-is through the rest of the season and miss the playoffs, is Lavy's job in trouble or do you think it's fairly clear the Flyers' front office didn't give a rat's (tail?) about this season and Lavy is safe as a result?

[Phlyer1]

Rux: It is a given that you can't fire the whole team so that means the coach must go. This team is flawed in that Giroux Briere and Hartnall are not scoring and the D is only Grossman the rest are standing around. Voracek and Symonds and Rinaldo show the only spirit on the ice. I am not so sure Holmgren is the same judge of talent as when he did his own scouting. JMO

Edited March 8, 2013 by Phlyer1

[fishbulb]

Other than a select few players, I don't think anyone is safe on this team... that goes for GM, Coach, Asst's, Players, etc. Snider does not take mediocrity well.

It's quite clear that this team has some MAJOR holes in it, and we are easily exploited.

I'm of the opinion that a pretty severe gutting is due... I have nothing against anyone really, but imo Lavi, Brzy, Briere, and maybe homer should be gone by summer.

Lavi's time is up imo, his messages are either not getting through, or he's giving the wrong ones... don't think that's the case though. This is a mediocre team and it doesn't suit his system that well. No, i don't know who the replacement is... but maybe someone else will be canned by june... or maybe we put in a plug until one is available.

Homer made some really clever moves... getting timo, hartnell, were awesome early decisions... stealing grossman, voracek, simmonds, etc. were also very strong moves. Unfortunately, our cupboards ARE SUPER FREAKING BARE and we are icing 2-3 quality Dmen. He did not prepare this team properly for a good season after the lockout. Yes he tried, but he failed.

Bryz... way too inconsistent. He's had a much better year, but bite the bullet and buy him out. Same as lavi... don't know who replaces him, but do it.

Briere... time has passed. If you can get assets.. fine, if not... give the ice time to someone else and say goodbye.

[Lindbergh31]

Sorry for the overly dramatic title.

Here's the question:

If the Flyers continue as-is through the rest of the season and miss the playoffs, is Lavy's job in trouble or do you think it's fairly clear the Flyers' front office didn't give a rat's (tail?) about this season and Lavy is safe as a result?

Rux, it's a fair question and I think both Holmgren and Lavi could be gone at the end of the season if the Flyers miss the playoffs. And based on Snider's history, I could see him calling LA to find out the availability of Ron Hextall since he loves bringing former Flyers into management. I don't care what Bryzgalov does for the rest of the year, they have to buy him out, period! As for Briere, you ask him if he wants to go to a contender if one asks about him or you buy him out also this summer. We need a gm who can build a team from the goalie out. The Flyers have some core players to work with but I can see Couturier being traded.

[pilldoc]

too late in the night for a thought out answer...especially considering i suggested you start this thread,,,,let me sleep on it and i will have a better thought out answer tomorrow

[Samifan]

Lindy Ruff will be the Flyers next coach next season, if not sooner.

[Phillygrump]

I hope not

[ruxpin]

Lindy Ruff will be the Flyers next coach next season, if not sooner.

God I hope not. One of the most over-rated coaches ever. I'd go so far as to say the Sabres may actually have had a chance to win something once or twice if they'd had a decent coach.

[off_the_post]

How can the GM take away Jagr and Carle and expect the team to be better? We complain about the defense and Carle logged the most of any dman last year. The GM has set this team up like this it should not be the coach's fault or at least not entirely.

[krasy]

How can the GM take away Jagr and Carle and expect the team to be better? We complain about the defense and Carle logged the most of any dman last year. The GM has set this team up like this it should not be the coach's fault or at least not entirely.

I agree with you, that those players were important for the team. Expecialy Jagr.

But i think Homer let Carle walk, because he was shure we can get Suter or Weber. That didn't hapened and we traded for Schenn.

Also last year this forum was full with Mat Carle must go treads, just like Briere must go now. In the summer i was thinking that 5-6 m per year for Carle are too much, but looking at this year free agent market, i changed my mind. Now puck moving defenseman will cost us much more. Only trade can bring us legit 1-2 D man

[doom88]

Lavy should be safe until next season, this one is crap. One week training camp, compressed schedule with a lot of road to start, and a lot of injuries. Not much time to coach in that format.

Plus, Bryz is killing this entire team's confidence.

[brelic]

Sorry for the overly dramatic title.

Here's the question:

If the Flyers continue as-is through the rest of the season and miss the playoffs, is Lavy's job in trouble or do you think it's fairly clear the Flyers' front office didn't give a rat's (tail?) about this season and Lavy is safe as a result?

I think Lavi is in trouble if we miss the playoffs. They will probably have him on a short leash to start next year, kinda like Stevens. If they look like this after 15 games, he's gone.

Top candidate is probably Murray, at least in the interim. He's definitely a different coach. As for full time replacement, it's anyone's guess. It could be Murray, or Tocchet, or Ruff, or whoever gets fired between now and then.

I don't know why this season would be any different for front office. There are still games played, there are still playoffs, and a Cup will be awarded.

[Bertmega]

@Samifan

No way. He never won anything and couldn't coach arguably the best team to hit the ice in decades (entire NHL that is) with the 06-07 Sabres squad.

Lindy is an overrated hot head. Lavy may have his issues, but by Ruff's standards, Lavy has 10 more years to win something.

The next coach should be D first, especially if we're forced to see that space case s&&t bag goalie for the better part of the decade.

[ruxpin]

I think Lavi is in trouble if we miss the playoffs. They will probably have him on a short leash to start next year, kinda like Stevens. If they look like this after 15 games, he's gone.

I kind of buy this. Yet I think that means they toss away next season as well.

Top candidate is probably Murray, at least in the interim. He's definitely a different coach. As for full time replacement, it's anyone's guess. It could be Murray, or Tocchet, or Ruff, or whoever gets fired between now and then.

Maybe Murray as an interim, but I really would not want Lindy Ruff in any discussion of a Flyer head coach. I think he's one of the most over-rated coaches around. He really should have been fired 7-8 years ago. I can't for the life of me understand how or why he stayed so long. Tocchett. He was and may still be my favorite Flyer ever. I'm not sure I want him as coach. But I get that currently there may not be a helluvalot out there.

I don't know why this season would be any different for front office. There are still games played, there are still playoffs, and a Cup will be awarded.

Valid statement. I don't either. But when a front office comes into a season with no backup goalie (a problem compounded by the short, compacted season) and only 3 defensemen (maybe 4 depending how you count), lets people like Jagr and Carle walk without so much as a head nod or any attempt to replace them, it comes across as either not caring, tragically inept, or criminally negligent. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt with "not caring."

[ruxpin]

By the way, I'm not sure how I feel about the "correct" answer to my own question.

I don't have a track record of supporting coaches. But oddly enough, I have never given firing Lavy any real serious thought. I still am mostly in the camp that he hasn't been given a full team and has previously gotten them further than they deserved based on personnel (Finals).

And I do think that the front office was either grossly inept or criminally negligent going into this season.

But at some point, the lack of cohesive effort on this team is glaring. I say cohesive, because it's not just a matter of effort. They did look listless in the 2nd last night, and they have on other nights, but sometimes I think there's effort but the effort is going in different directions. I think at some point, a coach has to acknowledge what he has and make adjustments to fit his group. Bryz clearly needs more structure and system. Given the fact that the skill level among our defense is not as high, there has to be an adoption of a system that helps them. (If themaker03 is trolling, I'm not sending you my description of the damn system!).

So, anyway the possibility of Lavy's job is creeping into my thought process. I'm just not sure I think that's the answer.

[brelic]

Maybe Murray as an interim, but I really would not want Lindy Ruff in any discussion of a Flyer head coach. I think he's one of the most over-rated coaches around. He really should have been fired 7-8 years ago. I can't for the life of me understand how or why he stayed so long. Tocchett. He was and may still be my favorite Flyer ever. I'm not sure I want him as coach. But I get that currently there may not be a helluvalot out there.

I agree about Ruff. I wouldn't want him either. Maybe it's because he's got Buffalo-taint on him.

As for Tocchet, well, he only has 2 seasons of NHL coaching experience. So he's still green and maybe not the right guy for this team. I don't know what his style is.

Wouldn't that be something to have the FO cleaned up and have Tocchet as coach and Hextall as GM? Haha, it'd be like 1987 all over again.

Valid statement. I don't either. But when a front office comes into a season with no backup goalie (a problem compounded by the short, compacted season) and only 3 defensemen (maybe 4 depending how you count), lets people like Jagr and Carle walk without so much as a head nod or any attempt to replace them, it comes across as either not caring, tragically inept, or criminally negligent. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt with "not caring."

You say that like they've never pulled this before. I think they really believe that Leighton and Boosh are capable backups. Delusional, I know. Actually, Boosh ain't that bad, but Leighton is another story. How he's made millions of dollars is beyond me.

I think they were so focused on what they didn't have (Suter, Parise, Weber) that they totally neglected what they did have. ANd what they had was a team ecstatic with Jagr's presence on and off the ice, and a steady, if unspectacular defenseman in Carle.

[brelic]

But at some point, the lack of cohesive effort on this team is glaring. I say cohesive, because it's not just a matter of effort. They did look listless in the 2nd last night, and they have on other nights, but sometimes I think there's effort but the effort is going in different directions. I think at some point, a coach has to acknowledge what he has and make adjustments to fit his group. Bryz clearly needs more structure and system. Given the fact that the skill level among our defense is not as high, there has to be an adoption of a system that helps them. (If themaker03 is trolling, I'm not sending you my description of the damn system!).

A point that might get overlooked is personnel turnover. Regardless of how you feel about Bryz, you can't deny that he has at least 'settled down' or 'settled in' after a full season with the club. Same with Voracek. He looked lost most of last year. At the beginning of this year, he was a bit tentative too, but then he just found this new confidence level, and BAM! Same with Brayden Schenn, Simmonds, Read (though he was excellent last year too). They're all comfortable with each other, the coach, the city, the system, etc.

We usually have a high turnover rate that I'm sure it plays a role in why our teams are inconsistent. Give these guys 2-3 more years together and they could be a force to be reckoned with. Keep the turnover to a minimum.

[ruxpin]

You say that like they've never pulled this before. I think they really believe that Leighton and Boosh are capable backups. Delusional, I know. Actually, Boosh ain't that bad, but Leighton is another story. How he's made millions of dollars is beyond me.

I think they were so focused on what they didn't have (Suter, Parise, Weber) that they totally neglected what they did have. ANd what they had was a team ecstatic with Jagr's presence on and off the ice, and a steady, if unspectacular defenseman in Carle.

I guess I really can't argue that. So I guess I have to abandon the hope that they just don't care and go with the obvious gross ineptitude answer.

[ruxpin]

We could always go with Garth Snow as GM and go from having no goalies to having 27.

[brelic]

I guess I really can't argue that. So I guess I have to abandon the hope that they just don't care and go with the obvious gross ineptitude answer.

I think the Flyers organization cares more than most. I'd say they're top 5 in the league. They will do whatever it takes to try and improve this team. Now, that doesn't mean they know *how* to do it, but they do not hesitate for one second to make a move that they believe will make this team more competitive.

Of course, passion and emotion are enemies to reason. That means colossal failures like Bryz, or shock-and-awe moves like trading away the Captain and Alternate Captain (and franchise cornerstones) within a few hours of each other.

[BearOnIce]

Sorry for the overly dramatic title.

Here's the question:

If the Flyers continue as-is through the rest of the season and miss the playoffs, is Lavy's job in trouble or do you think it's fairly clear the Flyers' front office didn't give a rat's (tail?) about this season and Lavy is safe as a result?

Morning brings clarity. Flyers will miss playoffs. A given. Team too much off-season changes/injuries. Never gelled. Now too far behind 8 ball. Not the coach. Failure of GM many levels. Trades. No Sutter/Webber. All or nothing here caused deep D hole. D causing team avalanche right now. (Very obvious against O powerhouse like Pens). Loss of Carle. Loss of Pronger. D porous, going down faster/worse than ever expected this year. Kimmo lost wheels 1 more year must have help. Grossman keeper solid stay-at-home. Worst GA and loss record NHL. GM D summer stopgaps did not work. Schenn, Gervais, Gus, etc. not answer. + D cupboard bare. Lack of scouting & proper management of farm system. On GM. Clean D house. Trade Colburn a 3/4 but make some team believe 1/2. Makeover will cost young forward or two. Rebuild take 3-4 years. Hextall in as GM. Bryz a system goalie, this not his system, buy-out. Bob trade. On GM. Need legit #2. Booch and Leighton gone. Hextall can fill the G cupboards there in 5 years. Briere traded to contender. GM mistake loosing Jagr w/influence. Giroux carrying C heavily. Talbot, Gagne, Red, all replaceable fill-ins. Simmons, Jake, Harts keepers. B Schenn and Couts likely trade casulties. But Flyers must stop trading youth. Must develop internally. That why GM change possible. There, I fixed it all.

[murraycraven]

Hate to say it but if they bring in Ruff I might have to be a fan of another team... there is no other person I hate in hockey more than Ruff

[RonJeremy]

i dont see how Lavvy can be blamed for this season, Holmgren is the one who built this team. Holmgren gambled for Suter, Parise and Weber and he struck out. and in the process lost Jagr and Carle. Holmgren signed Bryz and traded Bob. Of course in the end, the coach is always the first to go, but if you fire Lavvy, then Homer should go to. The bottom line is this, even if we make the playoffs,we are not going very far. I hope we dont get in, and then hopefully we get lucky and end up with a high draft pick and finally pick a top notch defenseman. I really dont want us to trade any young players for some over the hill guy like Ingila

[pilldoc]

Say just NO to Ruff. I want know part of him whatsoever in this organization.

As far as Lavy keeping his job. I truly believe he is safe. Management is what got this team into this pickle. As I mentioned before, Homer/Ed were so gung-ho going after Suter/Parise/Weber, that they failed to mind what they had. While we certainly cannot blame all this years team failures on the not resigning of Carle an Jagr, an argument can be made that they were at least an intangible to this team that made this team successful last year. Someone in another post mentioned Jagr being a mentor to Coots.

To resign Leighton was basically a slap in the face to most of us fans. The signings of Gervais / Foster are just as hideous. How can you fool this knowledgeable fan base with these types of signings and expect everything to be ok. Again I state. there was no Plan B.

You cannot put the motor of a Ford Tempo into the body of a Formula 1 racing car and expect to win the Indy 500.

Look at the Rangers. They lost alot of grit to obtain Nash and now they are struggling despite having a stud goalie in Lunqvist.

[PhilsFanDrew]

I get people being unsettled about losing Carle but why Jagr? Do you think if he is playing this year that Voracek has a breakout year? I don't. Who would you rather have that standout season. A young, budding talent who hasn't reached their prime or an aged vet who is on the twilight of his career? Jagr broke down by the end of last season. He wasn't nearly as effective coming down the stretch and in the playoffs as he was in the beginning of the season.