Broad Street Bullies 2 Cups Question.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I am aware that Parent won both Conn Smythe trophies during their cup runs. Who would you have chosen as MVP of those 2 cups if you were to choose a skater?

Leach won A conn Smythe in a non-cup year due to his ridiculous 19 goals and 5 assists in 16 games. Other than that his playoffs seem a bit bare.

Bobby Clarke's numbers seemed to have a dropoff in the playoffs. I know he is one of the greatest defensive forwards ever. but why the point production dropoff?

Rick MacLeish intrigues me as his playoff numbers seem to be team best. He stepped up his numbers a lot for the playoffs and is generally regarded as a very good defensive forward as well. On paper he looks like a safe choice.

Thoughts?

I am also having some "All time top 5-10" threads in the "Around the NHL" forum. I was hoping some of you could join in

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/forum/157-around-the-nhl/

Edited July 18, 2013 by hf101
added link

[ruxpin]

Wow, Joe. I think that's actually a pretty good question. I think outside Parent it was pretty much a team effort with no one player really standing out unless they happened to score a key goal (Dornhoefer, for example). Quite similar to this year's run by the Hawks but with more bloodshed.

In the 1974 playoffs, MacLeish had 13 G and 22 Pts, Clarke was 5-11-16. I guess I would give it to either one based on stats alone, but I guess I also give the nod to Clarke for everything else he brought.

1975 would again be those two players, in my opinion, with the nod going to Clarke again.

But the Conn Smythe clearly went to the right player.

[ruxpin]

As to Clarke's drop off in point production in the playoffs, I'm not sure it's huge enough to point to anything other than better competition/playoff hockey.

But since I was only 6 and 7 at the time, I don't recall matchups, etc and only have stats to go by so I can only venture to guess. I suppose one could point to Leach's drop off in the playoffs in 75, but it's hard to say in a chicken/egg kind of way. I guess I'll just go with "that's playoff hockey for ya."

[Podein25]

Clarke.

Point production - meh. If Clarkie's production dropped it's because he played against the other teams best forwards who sought to stop him.

And because he was exhausted. Nobody ever played the game as hard as Bob did. Never took a shift off in his life.

Plus he won almost every faceoff. Literally.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Wow, Joe. I think that's actually a pretty good question. I think outside Parent it was pretty much a team effort with no one player really standing out unless they happened to score a key goal (Dornhoefer, for example). Quite similar to this year's run by the Hawks but with more bloodshed.

In the 1974 playoffs, MacLeish had 13 G and 22 Pts, Clarke was 5-11-16. I guess I would give it to either one based on stats alone, but I guess I also give the nod to Clarke for everything else he brought.

1975 would again be those two players, in my opinion, with the nod going to Clarke again.

But the Conn Smythe clearly went to the right player.

For everything else Clarke brought, I always heard the same of MacLeish. I heard he stepped up his game in the postseason, and was always regarded as a tremendous defensive forward as well. Being the guy asked to PK and play a checking role.

I was just hoping for insight

Clarke's numbers may have dropped due to playoff hockey, but MacLeish's went up

[flyercanuck]

What Pods said. To add, Clarke was also trying to keep the Orrs, Espositos, Perraults, Martins, Roberts off the score sheet. MacLeish, as great as he was, was there to score. Don't get me wrong, EVERYONE played D on the Flyers (well except for Leach) but Clarke was in a league of his own when it came to 2 way play. The Selke could should be named after him.

[ruxpin]

was always regarded as a tremendous defensive forward as well. Being the guy asked to PK and play a checking role.

Someone else will need to correct fading memory, but I didn't remember him in the PK/checking role. He was a beautiful skater, particularly for that time, and had some real offensive ability, but I didn't remember him being in that particular role. Like FC said, everyone on the Flyers in that period was defensively responsible (yes, except for Leach).

I think there is something to what FC said, too. But it wasn't just that Clarke was responsible for keeping others off the score sheet. Usually the opponent's best line was out to defend against the LCB. That left MacLeish to play against second best.

But you would think that would be the case, maybe to a lesser degree, in the regular season as well, so I'm not sure how far that goes to explaining why Macleish's numbers went up while Clarke's went down. I do think it comes down to the competition each line was facing, though.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Someone else will need to correct fading memory, but I didn't remember him in the PK/checking role. He was a beautiful skater, particularly for that time, and had some real offensive ability, but I didn't remember him being in that particular role. Like FC said, everyone on the Flyers in that period was defensively responsible (yes, except for Leach).

I think there is something to what FC said, too. But it wasn't just that Clarke was responsible for keeping others off the score sheet. Usually the opponent's best line was out to defend against the LCB. That left MacLeish to play against second best.

But you would think that would be the case, maybe to a lesser degree, in the regular season as well, so I'm not sure how far that goes to explaining why Macleish's numbers went up while Clarke's went down. I do think it comes down to the competition each line was facing, though.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13476

The Flyers opted to start MacLeish in the AHL in 1971-72 before recalling him late in the year. The next season he broke through with 50 goals while playing the power play and taking a regular shift with Gary Dornhoefer and Ross Lonsberry. Over the next two season he continued to produce on offense but was asked to take on penalty killing and defensive responsibility. MacLeish's excellence was a key component on the Flyers' consecutive Stanley Cup wins in 1974 and 1975. During the first title run he led all playoff goal scorers with 13 goals and 22 points. Overall, MacLeish was named to play in the 1976, 1977 and 1980 NHL all-star games.

During the late 70s, MacLeish was a top two-way player for Philly. In 1979-80 he scored 31 goals while teaming with Bob Kelly and Dennis Vervegaert. The trio helped the Flyers set an NHL record by going undefeated in 35 straight games and later reach the 1980 Stanley Cup final. In July 1981, the veteran pivot joined the youthful Hartford Whalers. During his last three NHL seasons MacLeish also played in Pittsburgh, did a second tour in Philly and dressed for the Detroit Red Wings before retiring in 1984.

http://broadstreetbullies.blogspot.ca/2008/05/rick-macleish.html

Rick MacLeish scored 328 goals in a Philadelphia Flyers history, many of them in clutch situations. He added 54 more goals in the playoffs, including 10 game winners. But he will always be remembered for just one tally.

MacLeish may have scored the most important goal in Flyers history. His game-winning goal in Game 6 of the 1974 Stanley Cup Finals against the Boston Bruins gave the Flyers a 1-0 win and their first championship.

Of course many of his goals were clutch goals. 51 of his goals were game winners, which at the time ranked him 2nd in Flyers history. Even today he remains ranked 4th all time.

And MacLeish carried his production into the post-season, too. He thrived on the pressure of the Stanley Cup playoffs. In both of the Flyers’ Stanley Cup championship seasons, MacLeish was the NHL’s leading point scorer, tallying 22 points in 1974 and 20 in 1975. He missed the 1976 Cup drive with torn knee ligaments. The Flyers returned to the Cup finals, but with several key injuries the Montreal Canadiens swept the Flyers in the Finals.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Clarke.

Point production - meh. If Clarkie's production dropped it's because he played against the other teams best forwards who sought to stop him.

And because he was exhausted. Nobody ever played the game as hard as Bob did. Never took a shift off in his life.

Plus he won almost every faceoff. Literally.

Clarke stinks.

He's over-rated, and always has been. I have no idea why Philly worships him so much.

So I'm clear(SARCASM FONT ON)

[flyercanuck]

As great as MacLeish was, Clarke was still better. Likes Pods said, he won practically EVERY faceoff. His penalty killing was without peer. The guy willed his team to win. The leadership he brought was as important as shutouts, 50 goal seasons, 100 point seasons, anything.

[J0e Th0rnton]

When I look at Shorthanded numbers, between 72-80, I see Clarke with 25 SHG, Barber with 23 SHG, and MacLeish with 21. Their goals Against indicated Clarke was definitely their #1 Pker, but Macleish definitely got his time as well.

[flyercanuck]

@J0e Th0rnton

There's a reason my daughter is named Robert Earle.

[radoran]

From 73-65 Clarke had 58 points in 60 playoff games.

If that's a "dropoff" (and it was from his in-season PPG average) I'll take it.

I think unquestionably, it is related to the higher level of competition night in/night out in the playoffs.

[J0e Th0rnton]

From 73-65 Clarke had 58 points in 60 playoff games.

If that's a "dropoff" (and it was from his in-season PPG average) I'll take it.

I think unquestionably, it is related to the higher level of competition night in/night out in the playoffs.

Just looking at his big years

Well from 72-73 to 75-76, Clarke scored 426 points in 313 RS games for 1.36 pts per game. In that time Frame he scored 56 points in 61 playoff games for 0.91 pts per game. I expect a drop in the playoffs of course, and I know Clarke was an amazing player. He was still the guy other teams tried to shut down in the regular season and who tried to shut down their top guys.

MacLeish in 72-73 to 74-75 (I omit 75-76 since he was injured half the season and missed the playoffs), scored 256 points in 236 games for 1.08 pts per game. In the playoffs he scored 49 points in 44 games and many claim missing him was a key reason they got stomped so badly in 76

I am just trying to figure out if Macleish is an unsung hero and why Bill Barber gets into the Hall of fame and MacLeish does not. Do Flyer fans consider him an unsung hero? The guy who upped his game at crunch time and was respected as a great two way player?

[doom88]

I'm a bit too young to contribute meaningfully, but great question and analysis so far.

[flyercanuck]

@J0e Th0rnton

It's funny how many people who never saw the BSBs thought they were all just a bunch of goons. MacLeish was one of the smoothest skaters around back then, with a nice shot.

[murraycraven]

Clarke.

Point production - meh. If Clarkie's production dropped it's because he played against the other teams best forwards who sought to stop him.

And because he was exhausted. Nobody ever played the game as hard as Bob did. Never took a shift off in his life.

Plus he won almost every faceoff. Literally.

What Pods said!

[Podein25]

@J0e Th0rnton

I know MacLeish killed penalties and was no doubt dangerous at doing it given his considerable skill and skating, but I don't think anyone would confuse him with being a defensive specialist.

FWIW: my dad used to complain about MacLeish's laziness, especially on the back check. It might be unfair. He was an effortless skater and sometimes that can be confused for lack of effort. Plus everyone's effort paled in comparison to Clarke's.

[doom88]

@J0e Th0rnton

I know MacLeish killed penalties and was no doubt dangerous at doing it given his considerable skill and skating, but I don't think anyone would confuse him with being a defensive specialist.

FWIW: my dad used to complain about MacLeish's laziness, especially on the back check. It might be unfair. He was an effortless skater and sometimes that can be confused for lack of effort. Plus everyone's effort paled in comparison to Clarke's.

So MacLeish was the original Jeff Carter?

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

I know MacLeish killed penalties and was no doubt dangerous at doing it given his considerable skill and skating, but I don't think anyone would confuse him with being a defensive specialist.

FWIW: my dad used to complain about MacLeish's laziness, especially on the back check. It might be unfair. He was an effortless skater and sometimes that can be confused for lack of effort. Plus everyone's effort paled in comparison to Clarke's.

heh, I am just going by what legends of hockey had down about him. Definitely has me curious

[Podein25]

@J0e Th0rnton

No worries. It's a good point you bring up. Good debate. My recollection as a 7 year old is that he was a bit of a floater precisely because he was highly skilled. But again, it's all relative. And I think you are right: he did elevate his game in the playoffs. They all did. For if they hadn't they'd have to go back to the room and deal with Clarkie.

[murraycraven]

So MacLeish was the original Jeff Carter?

No... The Rifle could actually shoot incredibly well... there were no "high and wide" carter-esque shots.

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

The Rifle was Leach.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

The Rifle was Leach.

WTF am I thinking... long night w/out sleep.

[AJgoal]

heh, I am just going by what legends of hockey had down about him. Definitely has me curious

I have the top 10 games DVD set, we can always sit down and watch the two cup winning games and compare all the players at least in those two. Myself, I'm just a couple years too young to have seen the cups.