Is it time to start dumping salary?

[radoran]

Marian Hossa's and Jaromir Jagr's don't just grow on trees.

Besides, we had veteran wingers, ie: Gagne, Talbot, Knuble ....

Anyway, I agree with your statement that we are missing a veteran presence, but that means we would have to deal a young winger like Read or Simmonds to free up space for a top for a top 2 overpriced veteran. And as it stands, we're not in any position to make a run for the cup anytime soon so a veteran presence is rather pointless at this time.

 

Vincent Lecavaliers are available for this team - and they could have kept Jagr.

 

Gagne, Talbot and Knuble are, with respect, bad examples.

 

Gagne was pretty much a shell of himself, Knuble was ancient and useless and Talbot - for whatever reasons - never really worked with the team (not that they used him effectively).

[murraycraven]

Vincent Lecavaliers are available for this team - and they could have kept Jagr.

 

 

So you are saying they made a bad decision letting Jagr go?

[mojo1917]

So you are saying they made a bad decision letting Jagr go?

 

I remember being on this very forum when Carle signed with Tampa saying it was going to hurt.

I remember reading on this very forum and writing on this very forum that Dallas payed too much for Jagr.

 

why Homer didn't sign everyone , make his play for Parise and Suter, whom let's face it were not coming to Philly , and let the chips fall where they may if P and S actually did sign.

 

to me that was the worst of all of Homers moves. worse than carcillo, worse than shelley , those were the two most harmful things he did to the team.

[murraycraven]

I remember being on this very forum when Carle signed with Tampa saying it was going to hurt.

I remember reading on this very forum and writing on this very forum that Dallas payed too much for Jagr.

 

why Homer didn't sign everyone , make his play for Parise and Suter, whom let's face it were not coming to Philly , and let the chips fall where they may if P and S actually did sign.

 

to me that was the worst of all of Homers moves. worse than carcillo, worse than shelley , those were the two most harmful things he did to the team.

 

 

can not argue with anything you said mojo... spot on.

[radoran]

I remember being on this very forum when Carle signed with Tampa saying it was going to hurt.

I remember reading on this very forum and writing on this very forum that Dallas payed too much for Jagr.

 

why Homer didn't sign everyone , make his play for Parise and Suter, whom let's face it were not coming to Philly , and let the chips fall where they may if P and S actually did sign.

 

to me that was the worst of all of Homers moves. worse than carcillo, worse than shelley , those were the two most harmful things he did to the team.

 

He couldn't have made the offers to P & S and remained under the cap had he signed both Jagr and Carle. Because the Flyers are cap-strapped and contract-total strapped as a result of other moves he had made.

 

Dallas essentially paid Jagr to get a couple of prospects and a first round pick - not a bad haul for them. IMO, he would have been cheaper and more valuable to the Flyers and Giroux.

 

He just had a team that got to the second round of the playoffs, beating Pittsburgh and losing to an eventual Finalist.

 

WHY he wouldn't just re-load that gun and take another shot is beyond me.

[SwedeFly]

@radoran

"Gagne, Talbot and Knuble are, with respect, bad examples."

Maybe, in comparison to Jagr and Lecavalier... However sometimes a line with a talented center and winger just simply needs a veteran to bang home the garbage with the added bonus of injecting some leadership and stability. Now that I said that Homer will

Our problem is that our youth has always been down the middle (center position ) compounded by the fact that our wingers are pretty young too. All our vets are on defense. Something has to give if we want a veteran presence up front and no one seems willing to part with anything except Hartnell who is going nowhere.

[mojo1917]

@radoran

 

yeah, i know they would have been over the cap... i guess i do not know what is to prevent a GM from signing a bunch of guys then dumping the salary later ?

why not have Carle signed at 5.25 for 4 and Jagr for 3.5 for 1 and then trade them when Parise and Suter took the offer ?  is there language in the CBA that prevents that ? if Parise and Suter took the offers salary was going to be moved anyway.

Both those contracts are moveable. okay so we're taking back broken pieces for the phantoms; however Parise and Suter are taking the place of Carle and Jagr in the Flyers line up.

 

this is what i am saying.

[radoran]

@radoran

 

yeah, i know they would have been over the cap... i guess i do not know what is to prevent a GM from signing a bunch of guys then dumping the salary later ?

why not have Carle signed at 5.25 for 4 and Jagr for 3.5 for 1 and then trade them when Parise and Suter took the offer ?  is there language in the CBA that prevents that ? if Parise and Suter took the offers salary was going to be moved anyway.

Both those contracts are moveable. okay so we're taking back broken pieces for the phantoms; however Parise and Suter are taking the place of Carle and Jagr in the Flyers line up.

 

this is what i am saying.

 

Yeah, that's one reason why they have the 10% off-season overage. But the Flyers were bumping up against that given the two-ways they needed to clear and Pronger's as well.

 

You have to have room under the cap (+ 10%) to make the offer in the first place.

[Howie58]

Sorry, but the last thing this team needs right now is an all out youth movement. This team's core (forwards and goaltending at least) is mostly younger players right now and the team is tanking. The same thing happened in 06-07 when they made youth the focal point of the team. I'm not against youth at all, but you can't throw out a roster of kids and expect them to simply start winning. I would focus on youth, but I think it's very important to have several guys on the team in their late 20s and early 30s to serve as a veteran presence.

 

I agree with you about some of the guys you want to move, but if you trade them all for a bunch of 20 year olds, given the youth's already fragile state on this team, that isn't going to help.

 

I'm with you on Couturier. I'm not in a rush to get rid of him, but for the right deal, I absolutely move him. No hesitation.

Greetings:

 

It would not surprise me if one or more of these folks are let go by trade deadline.  But at this juncture, I see very little demand for overpriced, under-productive players.  And with Holmgren at the helm, what difference will it make? 

 

Sorry for sounding bummed.

 

Howie

[ItsDaBill]

I say it is. Hartnell, Coburn, Meszaros, and Luke Schenn, just to name a few, are simply taking up space. I'm not ready to give up Couturier yet, but for the right player I would be willing to even deal him.The veterans who have been here for over 4 or 5 years need to be traded for future talent, and we need to let the young kids like Laughton play, including giving kids from the AHL time to develop their game.  Who cares about the team's record? Anyone who has watched 5 minutes of this team knows they are going nowhere. The last 6 minutes of the Carolina game was pretty much an encapsulation of their entire season. I know their salaries are a problem, but there has to be a team out there in need of veterans, that will give us something. Maybe they will fit in better somewhere else, and we could have a very good team in a few years. It's better to have a sucky team with a solid plan and purpose rather than what seems to be now, which is having none at all.  Thought this would be another fire Holmgren thread, eh? (I still think he should be).

I am going to say yes, a salary dump would be excellent for this team. Its not that they need to get younger, its that they have spent money horribly on guys like Timonen, Streit, Hartnell, etc... if you can somehow move them to teams looking to fill voids I would do it in a heartbeat. Of the older players I would keep Vinny because he is someone I think would be good for younger guys to learn from. They have to stop dishing out contracts like Timonens $6 million per at 38 years old... it makes no sense.

[FreakinFlyersFan]

Hartnell, got to go, find a team, there's always a team.

Timonen, don't resign, he will retire.

Streit. bad deal, trade him.

Just put Mezsaros on waivers and hope someone picks him up already.

Edited November 7, 2013 by FreakinFlyersFan

[canoli]

NObody will talk to Homer about Hartnell or Timonen right now, even if either one was willing to waive their NMC. Maybe at the TD but only if they're playing well.

 

Hartnell at least fills the "gritty, banger, instigator" role for a team looking to shore up their depth chart. Timonen? He may come around but he's never been the type of player who needs the team to play well for him to look good. So my point is even if the Flyers improve and start winning, Timonen may look exactly like he does now. He's 38, making $6 million this season and it appears his primary interest is in staying healthy, avoiding anything that will screw up his retirement. It's sad to see and I don't really believe that about him. But it sure looks that way.

Edited November 7, 2013 by canoli

[King Knut]

This is why I was so ticked when they was screwed over gagne.

that's why the flyers are so bad because there's no vet presence for giroux, im talking about getting a good first winger for giroux like with jagr. i think i should say the same for courts and schenn, there's no vet presence for them. vinny is a good sign for us but schenn shouldnt be a winger, he should be a third line center.

the youth is struggling because there's no vets that will help them.

[SwedeFly]

@FreakinFlyersFan

"Hartnell, got to go, find a team, there's always a team.

Timonen, don't resign, he will retire.

Streit. bad deal, trade him.

Just put Mezsaros on waivers and hope someone picks him up already."

Don't forget, we also need a new GM. I would hate to see what Homer will do with all that fresh cap space......

[fanaticV3.0]

well said.  going all young is disastrous for most clubs.  people point at pittsburgh and chicago and say that's how you do it, except they have to ignore florida, NYI, columbus, nashville, winnipeg/atlanta, calgary, and edmonton to arrive at that conclusion.  it is usually a (permanent) mess.

 

Exactly. Citing the exceptions to the rule is not the best way to make your case. And like Rad said, Pitts drafted two of the best prospects ever. It's not like they just went out and got a bunch of good young players, they got two studs. The teams you name are the norm for drafting young players, trying to build around them, and the team just totally collapsing and being perpetually bad.

 

The actually leads me to an interesting question. Do you think there are players that would have had much better careers if they weren't in that situation? And if so, who?

[aziz]

@fanaticV3.0

 

it's hard to say.  i wonder what the entire oilers' roster would have looked like if they'd each been picked up by teams with a solid framework of vet players.  evender kane would maybe be a scoring title contender.

 

i think the most damaging aspect is these kids come into very very bad teams with no hopes of not being bad for several years, and losing becomes normal to them.  they stop caring so much about the team and focus on themselves and their personal accomplishments.  danny heatly and ilya kovalchuk come to mind.  how much of your heart can you put into the team concept when the team is repeatedly at the very bottom of everything?  especially while everyone is talking about how amazing you individually are.

[fanaticV3.0]

Greetings:

 

It would not surprise me if one or more of these folks are let go by trade deadline.  But at this juncture, I see very little demand for overpriced, under-productive players.  And with Holmgren at the helm, what difference will it make? 

 

Sorry for sounding bummed.

 

Howie

 

You think they'll trade one of the kids? Any theories on who?

[radoran]

@fanaticV3.0

 

it's hard to say.  i wonder what the entire oilers' roster would have looked like if they'd each been picked up by teams with a solid framework of vet players.  evender kane would maybe be a scoring title contender.

 

Kane plays for the Jets

 

 

i think the most damaging aspect is these kids come into very very bad teams with no hopes of not being bad for several years, and losing becomes normal to them.  they stop caring so much about the team and focus on themselves and their personal accomplishments.  danny heatly and ilya kovalchuk come to mind.  how much of your heart can you put into the team concept when the team is repeatedly at the very bottom of everything?  especially while everyone is talking about how amazing you individually are.

 

Creating the winning atmosphere is difficult. You need guys who can take the pressure off - not put more pressure on themselves.

 

I see a huge hole where Jagr was - a hole VLC might be able to fill, but not in the midst of this disaster.

 

There's no one who can take control of the game, settle things down and change the direction. No one who can make the move that, for example, Jagr made in the first Devils game, splitting the D at the blue line and almost getting through down the middle. He was really the only Top 6 forward on the ice for the Devils and he STILL was able to make an impression.

 

The impression of the Flyers? Giroux's man uncovered and Streit stripped at the blue line with no one behind him.

[aziz]

Kane plays for the Jets

 

i know, i was rattling through my head of guys in that situation.  it went "all the oilers, evander kane, all the isles, all the bluejackets" but i stopped at kane.  and made myself look dumb.  

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

it's hard to say.  i wonder what the entire oilers' roster would have looked like if they'd each been picked up by teams with a solid framework of vet players.  evender kane would maybe be a scoring title contender.

 

i think the most damaging aspect is these kids come into very very bad teams with no hopes of not being bad for several years, and losing becomes normal to them.  they stop caring so much about the team and focus on themselves and their personal accomplishments.  danny heatly and ilya kovalchuk come to mind.  how much of your heart can you put into the team concept when the team is repeatedly at the very bottom of everything?  especially while everyone is talking about how amazing you individually are.

 

Oh yeah, I can see that. If you look at his stats, it's easy to see. Throwing up 40-50 points on a team that has no offense around you is actually pretty impressive.

 

Iginla has passed the 1000 point mark, but I would have loved to have seen him in his prime on a good team.  

[radoran]

i know, i was rattling through my head of guys in that situation.  it went "all the oilers, evander kane, all the isles, all the bluejackets" but i stopped at kane.  and made myself look dumb.  

 

Have to love Garth Snow looking at the Isles and bringing in Thomas Vanek to imbue a winning attitude. From Buffalo. It is to laugh.

 

As we've discussed, there's no magic formula or set blueprint for creating a team that is more than its parts. But it starts with the organization. Chicago changed their whole team's culture, brought in a coach and stuck with him, had a longer term plan than "I need X now - trade a valuable long term asset for it!" - and they've won two Cups and remain one of the top teams in the league.

Pittsburgh was in a similar situation - both teams getting high draft picks from being woeful. But it is in many ways Mario's ascension to the owner's box that changed the culture there from the top down.

 

Boston brought in Claude Julien - who had never really done much before, but they stuck with him. They had been one of the "trade away everything" (Thornton, Raycroft, etc.) and they were "good moves" at the time. They turned that around, changed their culture and are a top flight team.

 

The Rangers? They keep doing the same stupid things and expecting different results. They gutted some heart from their team trading for Nash - a guy who has yet to win anything.

 

And so do the Flyers.

[mojo1917]

Couldn't Lukko or some faceless bureaucrat from Comcast take control of the hockey teams operations ?  

 

you can't get any more mega than comcast... they're doing something right somewhere for christssake they've made a fortune on getting people to pay for something that is free... it's not like people in that organization aren't successful.

 

At this point i'm all for waiving guys , trading guys, sucking this year and next drafting ekblad and mc david and seeing what that does.

 

as has been pointed out, the culture needs a douching .

Edited November 8, 2013 by mojo1917

[fanaticV3.0]

Couldn't Lukko or some faceless bureaucrat from Comcast take control of the hockey teams operations ?  

 

you can't get any more mega than comcast... they're doing something right somewhere for christssake they've made a fortune on getting people to pay for something that is free... it's not like people in that organization aren't successful.

 

At this point i'm all for waiving guys , trading guys, sucking this year and next drafting ekblad and mc david and seeing what that does.

 

as has been pointed out, the culture needs a douching .

 

Who though? I'm not ready to start shipping some of the young players out yet and frankly if you trade vets just for the sake of it, what's that going to help? Veteran leadership is exactly the team's problem.

[mojo1917]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Clean house, new coach , new GM.  Create an identity, we're going to play "this way". Find good hockey players, i know this seems simplistic, but i mean smart players with good hands and speed.  teach the "system" but have guys with brains, wheels and a handle.

 

I think you keep most of the the young core , let them suffer together but hope they grow.  So when winners come to the team because they like money the core is willing to embrace what the winner brings.

 

I think Coburn could go because he might provide decent return, 

Striet, VLC , Metzaros , Hartnell , even though i like him,  Timmonen, make salary cap space.  Draft high, hope you get lucky next year because McDavid looks pretty special as a 16 year old.  

When he joins the team use the salary cap space to sign some leadership, veterans who've won, Bill Guerin types but with more in the tank than he had with Pgh.  

 

the roster; especially defensively, is a mess , reset it.  Our blueliners aren't going to magically become dynamic players, find a different mix, even if it comes from within; Alt, Morin, Haag.  

 

I've never been a "lets tank it" type fan, i'm an Orioles fan for goodness sakes,  15 years of AA ball at the Major league level has soured me on the "suck for a while and acquire draft picks" mode of team building, especially if the guys doing the drafting don't have an idea of the team they want to build.

[flyersfan83]

this team needs players from winning cultures, lets look at these players.

 

mark streit- yes his team made the playoffs once but isnt exactly winning culture type of player, the islanders were bad for years until last year.

vinny- came from bad lightning team that only had won the cup once in 2004 and past his prime, that was a bad move.
mez- he was a bad player to begin with, he was bad with ottawa and tampa none of them made the playoffs, trading gagne for him another bad move

jake- came from a bad bluejackets team, hasnt shown anything, this was probably a bad trade for us.

simmounds-only made the playoffs twice, once with kings, once with flyers, he hasnt done anything either, plus trading richards for him was another bad move.

 

 

my point is homer is just overpaying the best player in fa, that's not how you build this team, you build this team on drafting the best players in the draft and signing fas that are from winning cultures that fit your system.