If we go into next season with the current lineup, do we make playoffs

[OccamsRazor]

Well, Hartnells sallary was a problem. But not compared to VLC. I like Hartnell more than Umberger, and I think Hartnell will be missed. I think he beats Umberger hands down despite being slower and taking more penelties. He is the right type of leader on the ice and in the locker room with a great personality (do not underestimate it) He also takes the hits, and he delivers them. Well, I know we must cut costs but I wish oh how I wish we could have released Vinny instead.

He so valuable? Umbuger scored just as many goals for thd Flyers this past post season as Hartnell did......ZILCH!!! NADA!!!

[canoli]

yeh no kidding Hartnell had a crappy end to his season but even as a 20/50 guy (20G / 32A last year) I like him a lot better than Umberger. We get a 2 year repreive on Hartnell's contract but meanwhile we're stuck with RJ Umberger at basically the same price, same cap hit. On top of that the Flyers are no better now - I agree with Swede don't minimize chemistry, on and off the ice. Hartnell was one of the most well-liked players on the team. He took more than his share of dumb penalties but he drew a lot of them too. To me that's a wash and Berube is wrong to use that as a reason to trade him - if that's what he did (he said as much in the STH meeting right?)

 

It's good to get out from under those last couple years but the Flyers aren't any better because Hartnell's gone and Umberger's in the O&B. If anything it's a step back, a pause, while we wait for RJ's shorter bad contract to expire.

[jammer2]

@canoli  I like the move, Scotty would have been pretty crappy during those last few years of that contract. Stats aside, Harts was not a good skater, and one of the main reasons we lost to the NYR was we got out skated pretty badly. Scotty only fit on the top line, and he made that line significantly slower. I'm not overly thrilled with Umberger coming back...but at least the Flyers know what they are getting, there is no risk of the unknown here....which is nice. Yet another sad sack contract by Homer that we had to awkwardly back out of.....did he ever do a long term deal that worked out....maybe, just maybe the Giroux contract will not come back to haunt us, other than that one....he's like 0 for 6 on long term deals.

[King Knut]

No more juniors for them IMHO.

They need to play with grown men and they need to play 82 game seasons.

I'm fine if that happens between the A And Philly.

Maybe keep rotating them. Give one five games until he wanes, send him down, give the next guy a chance for the same, etc.

But these guys aren't going to get any better in Jrs at this point and they're only going to get full season conditioning out of the AHL for a full year.

They need to be challenged and okay with the caliber of talent we need them to be better than in order for them to get there.

That said contract issues will probably limit all this.

jammer, I do agree they played better but I really see this defense as the major issue. I cant see Berube playing Kimmo as the 7th on back to back nights and personally would rather have one of the kids (if warranted) play a regular spot instead of getting the Gus treatment. Honestly, I would rather have all the young defensmen return to Jrs or the A and let them develop instead of giving them limited playing time.

I just dont see this Team cutting Kimmos time drastically...

[flyercanuck]

@King Knut

 

 Sanheim and Morin either make the Flyers, or go back to their junior teams. That's the rule.

 

 If you don't think playing top minutes and being THE MAN in junior helps your development more than getting turnstiled in the A as a teenager.....with 10 minutes of playing time...think about it King.

 

 Put it this way, would you rather Ghost plays limited time with the Flyers getting his confidence decimated or be the top dog on the Phantoms for a year? Morin and Sanheim are still teenagers.

[OccamsRazor]

It's good to get out from under those last couple years but the Flyers aren't any better because Hartnell's gone and Umberger's in the O&B.

 

You don't know that yet can we at least let him play one game with them first before jumping to conclusions.

 

And this chemistry of which you speak of sure didn't help much heading into the playoffs in the last 29 games of the regular season 5 on 5 with Giroux and Jake he scored one goal.

 

And the take and draw view of penalties on Hartnell isn't a wash when you consider over the last four years Umburger has totaled 107 penalty minutes.

 

Hartnell has put the Flyers down shorthanded 451 minutes over the same 4 year span!!!

 

Basically Umburger has as many penalties in his last 4 years as Hartnell had just last year alone. That my friend is not a wash....it's ugly as hell.

 

RJ has more versatility (can play all 3 forward positions) than Hartnell did.

 

I just can't understand why people don't at least let a guy play first before already claiming it is a disaster????? 

[OccamsRazor]

Sanheim and Morin either make the Flyers, or go back to their junior teams.

 

Which i prefer they need to utilize the junior leagues to continue to grow and develop there will be plenty of time to play for the Phantoms and Flyers when ready.

 

And in Sanheim's case he only played one year of junior which was a good one though but he still needs the time to refine his game as he said there is still a lot of stuff he can get better at.....no need to rush him. I know i'm preaching to choir so just stating the obvious or what i thought was.

[murraycraven]

Well, Hartnells sallary was a problem. But not compared to VLC. I like Hartnell more than Umberger, and I think Hartnell will be missed. I think he beats Umberger hands down despite being slower and taking more penelties. He is the right type of leader on the ice and in the locker room with a great personality (do not underestimate it) He also takes the hits, and he delivers them. Well, I know we must cut costs but I wish oh how I wish we could have released Vinny instead. 

 

 

I completely agree Swede... other than getting out of a bad contract earlier I still dont like the deal.  We acquired another player w/ a bad contract that was benched during the stretch run to the playoffs.   Dont hate Umberger but really dont see how he is a better player.  

[murraycraven]

I just can't understand why people don't at least let a guy play first before already claiming it is a disaster?????

 

I really dont think people are saying it is a disaster or at least I have not read that.   From the beginning I did not like the trade (I like the shorter term) but I am in complete "wait and see" mode when it comes to RJ.  I like him as a player and realize the penalty minutes will go way down but that was part of Hartnells game too.  He is someone that is going to constantly jaw at the opposing team, and like him or not, he is not afraid to get into the dirty areas.  He will post himself in front of the net and take a beating...

 

Is he better than RJ?  It is debatable and I think it is a wash in terms of production.   RJ is a decent skater but to say that RJ is better by a large margin is simply not true.   His is slighlty faster and stays upright more for sure but he is not all that much better than Hartnell.  I like RJs versatility but I do not agree the Flyers are better w/out Hartnell.   I hope it works out really...

 

I still really have the issue that suring the most critical run of the season the Coach benched RJ... they were fighting for a playoff spot and benched the guy.  In the end they are both declining players making too much money.  The good:  we get out of the contract earlier than with Hartnell but I really dont see how this Team is better b/c of the trade for this upcoming season.  The Flyers are a good PK and PP team regardless of RJ coming over... is he going to help them score when it comes to 5 on 5?  That is the question and like I said - I will wait and see.  I hope he really pans out...

[OccamsRazor]

I like him as a player and realize the penalty minutes will go way down but that was part of Hartnells game too.  He is someone that is going to constantly jaw at the opposing team, and like him or not, he is not afraid to get into the dirty areas.

 

Yes and they have all that in the form of Simmonds and cheaper and younger.

[murraycraven]

Yes and they have all that in the form of Simmonds and cheaper and younger.

 

 

and better!

[OccamsRazor]

and better!

 

And this allows Hexy to shed a not so great contract and free up some money to resign the guys in a couple years that will need it...Brayden, Coots, Coburn and Jake will all need new deals in a year or two. So Hexy is forming his team nucleus as we speak....he is reworking a lot of what Homer just handed him. A little at a time.

[canoli]

Have it your way but i don't need to "wait and see" with Umburglar.

 

Of course there's upsides to the deal - I said exactly that - now do you want me to agree again that Hartnell had an especially lousy last few months?

 

your comment about chemistry is silly OC - you should know it doesn't work like that. Maybe it did help a ton, and the Flyers would've really crashed and burned, missed the POs and panicked up a storm this summer. Come to think of it Hartnell probably saved us from Dan Boyle and who knows who else !

 

Maybe Jammer's right maybe his last few years on the contract will be abysmmal. But he could be wrong, maybe Hartnell creates, finds the right chemistry again in Columbus and puts up 25 or 30 goals. Because I don't buy that he's in a steady decline.

 

"now he's gone, gone nothing's going t bring him back..he's gone." Hunter/Garcia

 

 

 

[jammer2]

@canoli  Hartnell did do a lot of little things that never showed up on a stat sheet. He was the "push back" for the top line. You don't really want G or V invloved in those little pushing scrums after the whistle...as they quite often evolve into fights.....BUT, you don't want to not respond either, and show the other team they can push you around....Harts was good for that, he was the backbone of that line physically. That guy never once backed down from a scrum or a pushing session. That kinda thing will never show up on a stat sheet, but super important momentum wise to not let the other team push you around.

[murraycraven]

No more juniors for them IMHO.

They need to play with grown men and they need to play 82 game seasons.

I'm fine if that happens between the A And Philly.

Maybe keep rotating them. Give one five games until he wanes, send him down, give the next guy a chance for the same, etc.

But these guys aren't going to get any better in Jrs at this point and they're only going to get full season conditioning out of the AHL for a full year.

They need to be challenged and okay with the caliber of talent we need them to be better than in order for them to get there.

That said contract issues will probably limit all this.

Sorry man... I just don't agree. We can't keep all our prospects up bc there is no space for them. Also, taking young d prospects that are not ready is basically going to greatly stunt their development. patience is the key to development and this team is not making any runs this year...

Right now is the time to develop this group if prospects. Not throw them in a sink or swim scenario when it us not needed...

Edited July 25, 2014 by murraycraven

[jammer2]

@murraycraven  Yep, a lot of young d-men get totally overwhelmed when thrown into the fire to quickly. It can permanently scar them, so they think they are in over their head constantly. It's not just a cliche, it's a real thing....you just can't rush d-men, it's not worth the potential damage you can do to their psyche. Some of these kids just never recover from it, and when you are talking about someone's career, well...that should be guarded with great enthusiasm. Not to mention, a lot of these prospects are high draft picks, commodities you just can't afford to gamble with.

[King Knut]

Sanheim for sure. Too young.

And there are issues with roster space and caption potentially, and obviously playing any of them all year in the pros isn't an option.

But Hagg and Morin and Laughton aren't going to progress skill wise unless they're playing AHL and the NHL skill and can Ghost even play in Jrs?

They're also not going to get NHL strong or learn NHL systems playing in Juniors.

Getting extremely good at Juniors doesn't make anyone good at the pros. Different skill sets.

Plus then you have Jr coaches not necessarily respecting a player's develop by and getting all he can out of them because after all he's trying to make a name for himself too (anyone remember Sbisa being played 40 mins a game and losing 20 lbs and more or less ruining his promising career after being sent back to Jrs?)

Too much time in Jrs doesn't help a skilled player. It can help a kid like Sanheim go from "meh" to first round, but the NHL game is different, the season is longer and the players are tougher and more skilled.

Send them back to Jrs and they're just going to have to start coping with all that a season later.

Sorry man... I just don't agree. We can't keep all our prospects up bc there is no space for them. Also, taking young d prospects that are not ready is basically going to greatly stunt their development. patience is the key to development and this team is not making any runs this year...

Right now is the time to develop this group if prospects. Not throw them in a sink or swim scenario when it us not needed...

Edited July 25, 2014 by King Knut

[murraycraven]

Sanheim for sure. Too young.

And there are issues with roster space and caption potentially, and obviously playing any of them all year in the pros isn't an option.

But Hagg and Morin and Laughton aren't going to progress skill wise unless they're playing AHL and the NHL skill and can Ghost even play in Jrs?

They're also not going to get NHL strong or learn NHL systems playing in Juniors.

Getting extremely good at Juniors doesn't make anyone good at the pros. Different skill sets.

Plus then you have Jr coaches not necessarily respecting a player's develop by and getting all he can out of them because after all he's trying to make a name for himself too (anyone remember Sbisa being played 40 mins a game and losing 20 lbs and more or less ruining his promising career after being sent back to Jrs?)

Too much time in Jrs doesn't help a skilled player. It can help a kid like Sanheim go from "meh" to first round, but the NHL game is different, the season is longer and the players are tougher and more skilled.

Send them back to Jrs and they're just going to have to start coping with all that a season later.

 

 

 

I am okay w/ Hagg and Laughton playing in the AHL... Morin does not need to be in the AHL at this point and another year at Oceanic would not hurt him whatsoever.   Let him continue  to develop and move him to the AHL next year.  Laughton is done in Jrs and he has nothing left to prove at the Jr level.  He was a man among boys last year and I have no issue with him getting a season in the AHL.   He has to prove he belongs on the NHL squad - jumping from Jrs to the NHL is pretty big in terms of size, speed and skill...   He will have his shot but if he does not perform then ship him to the A.  

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I think we are a marginal playoff team at best. That doesn't worry me because expectations are low.  I see the next two years as test grounds. 

 

Best,

Howie

[mojo1917]

@King Knut

@murraycraven

 

Ghotisbehere played 3 years NCAA and needs to play in the A, or...

lot's of the "really good" college defensmen have a quicker transition to the pros. see MacDoughnah Ryan, Shultz Justin. & Krug Tory  ( although i think Krug did spend some time in the AHL)  maybe he makes it impossible to be left of the roster like those guys or Olli Maata did with the Pens last year.  There's kind of no one like him on the big club at the moment,  and I haven't seen him play other than the frozen 4; but he strikes me as the kind of kid that does not get rattled easily.  Smallish sample size I know but he was the best player I saw that weekend, orange tints notwithstanding.  

 

EDIT:  i meant to type does not get rattled easily...

Edited July 25, 2014 by mojo1917

[murraycraven]

@King Knut

@murraycraven

 

Ghotisbehere played 3 years NCAA and needs to play in the A, or...

lot's of the "really good" college defensmen have a quicker transition to the pros. see MacDoughnah Ryan, Shultz Justin. & Krug Tory  ( although i think Krug did spend some time in the AHL)  maybe he makes it impossible to be left of the roster like those guys or Olli Maata did with the Pens last year.  There's kind of no one like him on the big club at the moment,  and I haven't seen him play other than the frozen 4; but he strikes me as the kind of kid that gets rattled easily.  Smallish sample size I know but he was the best player I saw that weekend, orange tints notwithstanding.  

 

 

mojo... I think the two that will make a push for a roster sport is Ghost and Hagg.   My hope is that one of the two make it a really tough decision for the Flyers.  I think both of these players are closer than Morin on the defensive side.   I am high on Hagg and think this kid will turn out to be the steal of his draft class.   Skates well and seems to have really great poise for a kid.  

 

Ghost is an exciting prospect and he brings exactly what we need - speed and he is able to push the puck up the ice.   It is so nice to actually have, what appears to be, some really great d prospects.   My only inclination with this group is patience.   As Howie mentioned above I look at this as a 2 to 3 year reshaping of the roster - moreso on the defensive side.    Patience with d prospects is key to development and this is something the Flyers have always lacked.   Hexy seems to be peicing together his vision which is more exciting than anyting for me as a fan.   Build from the draft and add pieces if necessary...

[OccamsRazor]

Hartnell did do a lot of little things that never showed up on a stat sheet.

 

Yes he did but he also was one of the biggest puck dumpers on the team he and Downie and why they are gone too, part of why Hexy is changing how they play...

 

As a follow-up to that, when asked what he wants to see different about his team's play next season, Hextall replied, "How we enter the offensive zone." 

 

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/23/5926959/ron-hextall-interview-flyers-horny

 

another comments i agree with....

 

If there's a Philly player you tend to hear about in rumours, it's Braydon Coburn. Asked about that, Hextall said: "He's a big man who can skate. Not surprised people ask about him." Other teams say that's not a move Philly wants to make and will exhaust other options before considering it.

 

Lots of people dislike Braydon Coburn. To a certain extent, he suffers from Matt Carle Syndrome in this town: He plays a lot, he logs tough minutes, and he possesses the puck often, which means he's going to have a soft turnover every once in a while. Those mistakes then stand out, and we overlook the fact that 99 percent of the time, he's a really good defenseman -- one of the best the Flyers have.

Luckily, it seems like Hextall and Craig Berube and the Flyers powers that be recognize that. I mean, after all, people around the league want him on their team. It's the same thing with a guy like Sean Couturier. It's just silly to easily give up a guy that other teams covet so badly, because they covet him for a reason.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Completely agree it is why i am so hard on Coburn i just want him to play smarter. I'm not asking him to be Brian Leetch just play smart hockey with and without the puck...which he does at times he just needs to be consistent about it... that will show me he has turned the corner....now will it happen?? Man i sure hope so Flyers need that from him big time.

Edited July 25, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[jammer2]

Too much time in Jrs doesn't help a skilled player.

 

 There are literally 100's of Hall of Famers that directly prove that quote is wrong. If you are talking about an overage year, there is room to debate, but no career has ever been ruined by playing the final year in the CHL.

[King Knut]

Actually you're wrong. I said Too Much time.

By the definitions and syntax of what I said, isnliterally saying an amount of time that would be detrimental to their development is bad.

That statement is obvious and by definition cannot be wrong.

What constitutes too much time is up for debate, but there is utterly nothing to argue with on that quote.

There are literally 100's of Hall of Famers that directly prove that quote is wrong. If you are talking about an overage year, there is room to debate, but no career has ever been ruined by playing the final year in the CHL.

[jammer2]

@King Knut  Well, it's wrong because there is no such thing as to long in juniors....unless you are talking about an overage year, which I don't think you were. 0 players have gone on to be busts by staying "to long"....hundreds have fallen on their faces when rushed up "to quickly".