Pavel Datsyuk overrated

[fanaticV3.0]

according to one columnist.

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/pavel-datsyuk-is-the-magic-man-overrated/

 

I have to say, I agree with the guy. I always thought he was a good player, but some people talk about him like those two 97 point seasons are the norm for him.

[yave1964]

I am a Wings fan, (obviously) and it breaks my heart to say but I have to agree.

He is eroding offensively.

He never has been a very good shooter

He cannot stay healthy

On the plus side:

He is still one of the best two way players in the game

He is an amazing setup man

He does something that causes a double take almost every night

He is still Pavel and the joy in playing the game is written all over his face, but I don't see him as a true superstar. He got there, on the doorstep a few years ago and has been sliding down slowly since. Yes he is overrated but he is a joy to watcvh and love him in a wings uniform.

[Podein25]

Wow, not a thread title I thought I'd ever see. 

I guess it all depends of what we mean by "overrated" - does it mean relative to his salary or cap hit? Relative to other players? Relative to his ability to stay healthy? 

I dunno...

For me, the best judge of a player's worth is to ask: how hard is he to play against? Who do I not want to go up against for 60 min? And he's right up there on those counts IMHO

[AJgoal]

I always felt that Datsyuk was underrated. For a long time I felt that he was the best player in the NHL. Nobody else was as good as Datsyuk was at just about everything. There are guys who could put up more points, but they weren't in his league defensively. No defensive specialist (heck, few offensive specialists) could pass like him. You could use him in any situation in any game. Sure, age is catching up to him, but I would have picked him first out of all the forwards in the NHL to build a team around up til about last year.

[fanaticV3.0]

I always felt that Datsyuk was underrated. For a long time I felt that he was the best player in the NHL. Nobody else was as good as Datsyuk was at just about everything. There are guys who could put up more points, but they weren't in his league defensively. No defensive specialist (heck, few offensive specialists) could pass like him. You could use him in any situation in any game. Sure, age is catching up to him, but I would have picked him first out of all the forwards in the NHL to build a team around up til about last year.

 

Yeah, see that's a no go as far as I'm concerned. I never thought of him as quite that high a level, but if I did, it was only a legit argument for a couple of seasons, and definitely not a "long time" as you said. I think he's a good player who played above his norm a few times.

[fanaticV3.0]

I am a Wings fan, (obviously) and it breaks my heart to say but I have to agree.

He is eroding offensively.

He never has been a very good shooter

He cannot stay healthy

On the plus side:

He is still one of the best two way players in the game

He is an amazing setup man

He does something that causes a double take almost every night

He is still Pavel and the joy in playing the game is written all over his face, but I don't see him as a true superstar. He got there, on the doorstep a few years ago and has been sliding down slowly since. Yes he is overrated but he is a joy to watcvh and love him in a wings uniform.

 

I don't take issue with anything you said at all.

[yave1964]

I don't take issue with anything you said at all.

When he is healthy, which is around 30 games a year he is an absolute force for 18-20 minutes a game. He does not float or take shifts off, anyone who does against him is liable to wind up appearing on Hockey Tonight after Dats steals a puck and goes in for a breakaway.

For 30 games a year he is playing through something, gamely going out there and giving it his best but clearly human, slower, a little tentative, and picks his spots. Usual second games of back to backs he is a minus player, I can think of a half a dozen times last year alone.

And then he misses 20 or so games a year with injuries.

So elite? No, not at all. Someone who I feel is special and I enjoy watching, remembering all of the good times? Absolutely.

Now a question, is he a hall of famer?

IMHO yes, absolutely yes a thousand times over. He has won a couple of cups, three Bings a Selke or three and scoring a point of game. He still has several years to go in his career, in the stat padding tail end of a glorious career, as long as he remains healthy for another 3 years or more he will surpass a thousand points easily.

[ruxpin]

Yeah, see that's a no go as far as I'm concerned. I never thought of him as quite that high a level, but if I did, it was only a legit argument for a couple of seasons, and definitely not a "long time" as you said. I think he's a good player who played above his norm a few times.

It's hard for me because until they came east (without moving) I didn't get to see a lot of him. Mostly highlight reel shootouts (see? He's even good at things not hockey- related). This doesn't mean a hill of beans but I've had him on my fantasy team for the past maybe five years. Fairly good for fantasy up until last year.

And add defense.

So, I think underrated compared to the press Crosby or Stamkos or what's his name in Anaheim. He's pretty darn good at what he does.

But possibly a bit overrated - - especially at this point - - if one thinks he SHOULD be in with that group. I would put him, at his best, in the next tier.

[jammer2]

  Even at this age, he's still the most skilled guy in the league. There is a reason he is so very respected by his piers, cause they know greatness when they see it. He's not what he once was, but still in the top 5% of the league. Points are not everything.

[murraycraven]

I always felt that Datsyuk was underrated. For a long time I felt that he was the best player in the NHL. Nobody else was as good as Datsyuk was at just about everything.

 

I would agree AJ... I am not sure if he is overrated b/c I always felt he was under appreciated on a national level.   In fact I would say that over the past decade Datsyuk and Lidtrom were my favorite players in the league and I am a Flyers fan.   Always loved his skill and he can pretty much do anything...  Players get old and they start declining - it happens to everyone.   I would still say he is a top tier talent in the league.

[fanaticV3.0]

When he is healthy, which is around 30 games a year he is an absolute force for 18-20 minutes a game. He does not float or take shifts off, anyone who does against him is liable to wind up appearing on Hockey Tonight after Dats steals a puck and goes in for a breakaway.

For 30 games a year he is playing through something, gamely going out there and giving it his best but clearly human, slower, a little tentative, and picks his spots. Usual second games of back to backs he is a minus player, I can think of a half a dozen times last year alone.

And then he misses 20 or so games a year with injuries.

So elite? No, not at all. Someone who I feel is special and I enjoy watching, remembering all of the good times? Absolutely.

Now a question, is he a hall of famer?

IMHO yes, absolutely yes a thousand times over. He has won a couple of cups, three Bings a Selke or three and scoring a point of game. He still has several years to go in his career, in the stat padding tail end of a glorious career, as long as he remains healthy for another 3 years or more he will surpass a thousand points easily.

 

I don't mean this in regard to him specifically, but there was a time where I thought 1000 points made a given a guy deserved to be in the HOF. It is a lot of points after all. I don't know if I feel that way anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of points, but to me it also depends on how you get them.

 

Look at Ray Whitney for example. The guy has been in the league for over 20 years, played over 1300 games, and eclipsed the 1000 point mark in like his 22nd season. That's not a "great" player to me.

[fanaticV3.0]

It's hard for me because until they came east (without moving) I didn't get to see a lot of him. Mostly highlight reel shootouts (see? He's even good at things not hockey- related). This doesn't mean a hill of beans but I've had him on my fantasy team for the past maybe five years. Fairly good for fantasy up until last year.

And add defense.

So, I think underrated compared to the press Crosby or Stamkos or what's his name in Anaheim. He's pretty darn good at what he does.

But possibly a bit overrated - - especially at this point - - if one thinks he SHOULD be in with that group. I would put him, at his best, in the next tier.

 

I think he's both to be honest. I agree with those saying he's not appreciated enough nationally. He is definitely good enough defensively to make up for the fact he's not an offensive juggernaut, but I disagree with thsoe putting him in that Crosby/Stamkos category. That's a negative for me. No way. Good player, but not that good.

[yave1964]

I don't mean this in regard to him specifically, but there was a time where I thought 1000 points made a given a guy deserved to be in the HOF. It is a lot of points after all. I don't know if I feel that way anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of points, but to me it also depends on how you get them.

 

Look at Ray Whitney for example. The guy has been in the league for over 20 years, played over 1300 games, and eclipsed the 1000 point mark in like his 22nd season. That's not a "great" player to me.

I agree a thousand points is not a lock, but if you look at what he brings to the table and then add those points into the equation, not as the end all be all but as part of the puzzle, I think he is a lock for the hall.

As a Wings fan, I saw Sergei Federov for most of his career and living in Ohio I saw him playing for the Jackets and floating around collecting a paycheck. He is considered a potential HOFer, but the contract disputes, the fact that he never did anything in all of his years outside of Detroit, make him a much less likely candidate than Pavel. Their career stats:

Name Games Goals Assists Points

Federov 1248 483 696 1179

Datsyuk 824 272 532 804

Pavel has 4 Bings, 3 Selke's and a plus minus leader once, as well as two cups. Postseason, he has played 145 games and 108 points.

Sergei has a Hart as the league MVP and a Selke, and a couple of cups of his own. In the postseason he 183 games with 176 points.

Even with the obvious, glaring difference in statistics AT THIS POINT if Pavel were to retire today, I might still have to go with him for the Hall over Federov. Sergei essentialy compiled stats playing for a paycheck for a decade long after he quit being the superstar he once was, for a brief time.

Guys like Federov and Recchi who have long careers that go way past when they were great players IMHO does not make them a HOFer. Mike Gartner getting in a few years ago was kind of like Don Sutton getting in, Sutton with the Dodgers had a bunch of 15-10 years and was never considered a star but he pitched long enough to get to 300 wins and get in the Hall. I see Gartner as the same type. I would feel the same with Recchi getting in and to a lesser extent with Federov.

But Pavel is different, I see him more along the lines of a Forsberg or Bure or Neely who get in with shorter careers because they were special. Lindros is the same type but his argument is not as strong because his negatives are even more than those of Federov, who at least had a long career.

So that's my argument. Pavel is a HOFer, or close right now and within a few years any and all arguments will cease. I do not now see him as a superstar, he played 45 games last year, the last time he played over 70 games was 2009-10 and you gotta be in the lineup pretty much nightly to be a superstar. Plus, Pavel forgive me, but I watch every minute of every Wings game, he is a floater now, not every night, but usually the second game of back to backs or for a whole period at a time he is invisible. I understand he is aging and has to pick his spots, but to be a superstar you need to bring it every shift or at least not noticeably be taking a night off to a novice like me. But when he is on, when the game counts and he is bringing it, he is still as good as anyone. He just does not do it enough.

[fanaticV3.0]

I agree a thousand points is not a lock, but if you look at what he brings to the table and then add those points into the equation, not as the end all be all but as part of the puzzle, I think he is a lock for the hall.

As a Wings fan, I saw Sergei Federov for most of his career and living in Ohio I saw him playing for the Jackets and floating around collecting a paycheck. He is considered a potential HOFer, but the contract disputes, the fact that he never did anything in all of his years outside of Detroit, make him a much less likely candidate than Pavel. Their career stats:

Name Games Goals Assists Points

Federov 1248 483 696 1179

Datsyuk 824 272 532 804

Pavel has 4 Bings, 3 Selke's and a plus minus leader once, as well as two cups. Postseason, he has played 145 games and 108 points.

Sergei has a Hart as the league MVP and a Selke, and a couple of cups of his own. In the postseason he 183 games with 176 points.

Even with the obvious, glaring difference in statistics AT THIS POINT if Pavel were to retire today, I might still have to go with him for the Hall over Federov. Sergei essentialy compiled stats playing for a paycheck for a decade long after he quit being the superstar he once was, for a brief time.

Guys like Federov and Recchi who have long careers that go way past when they were great players IMHO does not make them a HOFer. Mike Gartner getting in a few years ago was kind of like Don Sutton getting in, Sutton with the Dodgers had a bunch of 15-10 years and was never considered a star but he pitched long enough to get to 300 wins and get in the Hall. I see Gartner as the same type. I would feel the same with Recchi getting in and to a lesser extent with Federov.

But Pavel is different, I see him more along the lines of a Forsberg or Bure or Neely who get in with shorter careers because they were special. Lindros is the same type but his argument is not as strong because his negatives are even more than those of Federov, who at least had a long career.

So that's my argument. Pavel is a HOFer, or close right now and within a few years any and all arguments will cease. I do not now see him as a superstar, he played 45 games last year, the last time he played over 70 games was 2009-10 and you gotta be in the lineup pretty much nightly to be a superstar. Plus, Pavel forgive me, but I watch every minute of every Wings game, he is a floater now, not every night, but usually the second game of back to backs or for a whole period at a time he is invisible. I understand he is aging and has to pick his spots, but to be a superstar you need to bring it every shift or at least not noticeably be taking a night off to a novice like me. But when he is on, when the game counts and he is bringing it, he is still as good as anyone. He just does not do it enough.

 

Contract stuff or personal life has no place in a conversation regarding the Hall. It's about recognizing their accomplishments as a player and teammate. It's not a humanitarian award. Pete Rose is a good example. The guy is a weasel and a shameless self-promoter. He should never be able to work in baseball ever again. But what he did as a player will never change and should be honored. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

Datsyuk vs. Fedorov for the Hall is a really fun debate, now that you point that out. The Lady Byng isn't really a factor to me. He doesn't get a lot of penalties. That's great. His team ain't winning because of that. The other stuff is a direction reflection of his play and hot it impacts the team. He has more Selke's. He's definitely the better defensive player imo. Sergei was no slouch in that department (in his prime), but Datsyuk is better. But Datsyuk was never an MVP and Federov has more points in the regular season and PO. You could argue that's because of the era he played in and who he played with though.

 

I'm looking at the list of HOF members right now and honestly, I'm not sure I see either of them being quite of that level. But if I had to pick between the two of them, I think I agree with you. There's also a few names on that list who are weak choices imo. Some of those guys put up some "empty" points or were the benefactors of their team/era. For all his points, Luc Robataille never did a damn thing to put any team over the top. I would say the same thing about Dale Hawerchuk. Guys like Kurri and Francis but up big numbers, but look at the teams they played on when they did that. Some of the guys who got in that played during that really offensive era are a little weak if you ask me. It makes for good conversation if nothing else.

[jammer2]

  I'd put Pavel in the HOF before Federov, but you could make a strong case for them both being worthy. As great as Federov was, he was not even the best or even second best player on his team, maybe that hurts him a bit. When Federov got there, Stevie was in his prime and Lidstrom arrived at the same time, so they did steal a lot of the spotlight from him IMHO.

 

  I was agreeing with fanatic on Whitney....good solid career, but certainly not great. Pavel didn't have the points, or maybe even the longevity that some seek, but he is recognized by his piers as the best, that carries the most weight with me......if anyone is gonna know, it's them...not us.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I agree a thousand points is not a lock, but if you look at what he brings to the table and then add those points into the equation, not as the end all be all but as part of the puzzle, I think he is a lock for the hall.

As a Wings fan, I saw Sergei Federov for most of his career and living in Ohio I saw him playing for the Jackets and floating around collecting a paycheck. He is considered a potential HOFer, but the contract disputes, the fact that he never did anything in all of his years outside of Detroit, make him a much less likely candidate than Pavel. Their career stats:

Name Games Goals Assists Points

Federov 1248 483 696 1179

Datsyuk 824 272 532 804

Pavel has 4 Bings, 3 Selke's and a plus minus leader once, as well as two cups. Postseason, he has played 145 games and 108 points.

Sergei has a Hart as the league MVP and a Selke, and a couple of cups of his own. In the postseason he 183 games with 176 points.

Even with the obvious, glaring difference in statistics AT THIS POINT if Pavel were to retire today, I might still have to go with him for the Hall over Federov. Sergei essentialy compiled stats playing for a paycheck for a decade long after he quit being the superstar he once was, for a brief time.

Guys like Federov and Recchi who have long careers that go way past when they were great players IMHO does not make them a HOFer. Mike Gartner getting in a few years ago was kind of like Don Sutton getting in, Sutton with the Dodgers had a bunch of 15-10 years and was never considered a star but he pitched long enough to get to 300 wins and get in the Hall. I see Gartner as the same type. I would feel the same with Recchi getting in and to a lesser extent with Federov.

But Pavel is different, I see him more along the lines of a Forsberg or Bure or Neely who get in with shorter careers because they were special. Lindros is the same type but his argument is not as strong because his negatives are even more than those of Federov, who at least had a long career.

So that's my argument. Pavel is a HOFer, or close right now and within a few years any and all arguments will cease. I do not now see him as a superstar, he played 45 games last year, the last time he played over 70 games was 2009-10 and you gotta be in the lineup pretty much nightly to be a superstar. Plus, Pavel forgive me, but I watch every minute of every Wings game, he is a floater now, not every night, but usually the second game of back to backs or for a whole period at a time he is invisible. I understand he is aging and has to pick his spots, but to be a superstar you need to bring it every shift or at least not noticeably be taking a night off to a novice like me. But when he is on, when the game counts and he is bringing it, he is still as good as anyone. He just does not do it enough.

Doesn't Fedorov have 2 Selke's?

Blah, now I have to check his resume.

 

.......

Highest scoring Soviet/Russian player of all time in the NHL.

2 Selke's trophies and a few other high finishes. Hart trophy and another high finish.

4 consecutive 20 point playoffs and should have won the Conn Smythe over Vernon.

 

On the other hand, his years outside those big years seem bland.

 

The thing I remember most about him was his damn skating. He was sooooo smooth

[Polaris922]

I think Fedorov deserves it before Datsyuk at this point. I think Datsyuk is worthy too but not ahead of Sergei.

As for the comment about Francis... Damn right he deserves it. Perhaps the most underrated center of all time! Lol

[J0e Th0rnton]

I think Fedorov deserves it before Datsyuk at this point. I think Datsyuk is worthy too but not ahead of Sergei.

As for the comment about Francis... Damn right he deserves it. Perhaps the most underrated center of all time! Lol

Yeah, Francis was pretty damn good at everything.

[fanaticV3.0]

  I'd put Pavel in the HOF before Federov, but you could make a strong case for them both being worthy. As great as Federov was, he was not even the best or even second best player on his team, maybe that hurts him a bit. When Federov got there, Stevie was in his prime and Lidstrom arrived at the same time, so they did steal a lot of the spotlight from him IMHO.

 

  I was agreeing with fanatic on Whitney....good solid career, but certainly not great. Pavel didn't have the points, or maybe even the longevity that some seek, but he is recognized by his piers as the best, that carries the most weight with me......if anyone is gonna know, it's them...not us.

 

I have a real hard time with Hall discussions anymore. 1,000 points does not mean what it used to imo. Hell, I'm not sure it was ever as big a deal as it used to be. There's guys in there now who hell well over 1,000 points who, imo, were products of their era and team they played on. I'm not saying they aren't good, but a few of them played on dynasties, and like you said about Federov, weren't even the best players on their team.

[Mad Dog]

As for the comment about Francis... Damn right he deserves it. Perhaps the most underrated center of all time! Lol

 

Definitely.  One of my all-time favorite non-Flyer player.  And a true class...

[jammer2]

The thing I remember most about him was his damn skating. He was sooooo smooth

 

  Federov's skating stride was so smooth and effortless, he quite often got the rap as being lazy, which was not true. Mario was the same way, skating was so natural to him, it appeared he was not giving full effort....even though he rarely took shifts off. Some guys look shakey and choppy on skates ( Bobby Clarke and Hartnell come to mind....lol) but a lot of true superstars seem like they were born skating, it's just a natural extension for them, where other guys labour and struggle.