They're going to do something stupid

[pilldoc]

Do people actually think that Hartnell being here would make any sort of difference?

 

No...the defense is bad with or with out Hartnell being here.  Yeah, I will buy he at least gave this team some character, bu this team is bad no matter how you slice or dice.  Coutner arguement, where would Hartnell be playing?  He certainly is not 1st line material.  2nd line?  I hvae no problem moving Hartnell.  I said so over the summer.  I just had no idea that Corpseberger would be this bad.  I would be willing to bet that Hexy had no idea how bad he was either.

 

Bottom line...with or with out Hartnell this is a bad team.

[jammer2]

I would be willing to bet that Hexy had no idea how bad he was either.

 

 That does not say much for our pro scouts. There was a reason he was a healthy scratch down the stretch for the Jackets. They should have known exactly what we were getting back.

[pilldoc]

I'll bite... 

 

I do, I think he provided leadership to the team, he kept guys loose, he had your back, he is a great teammate.  He's the kind of player that is good to have on your team, he's a guy that plays for his teammates and because he'd be one of the longest tenured Flyers he would have the respect in the room for guys to follow his lead.  I don't see anyone stepping up to that role with this bunch.  So...

Even though on the score sheet he's doing diddly/pooh with CBJ, I think our team misses him more than his production.

 

Agree to a point regarding the intangibles.  However, the blue line with or without Hartnell is still putrid.  This is an AHL defense. perioid.  Not arguing about being a good teammate / sticking up for one another / bringing leadership qualities.  All valid points, but that does not stop pucks from going into the net or VLC being a square peg in a round hole on this team. The defense is still dysfunctional.  If Hartnell was on this team instead of Corpseberger, how many additional wins does bring to this club.  IMO, maybe 1 or 2.  Last question, what line does he play one?  As I posted earlier, he certainly is NOT 1st line material.  2nd line?  Sure we could have a 4th line of Zac / Hartnell / VLC.  Not saying it is right or wrong, just playing the other side here.

[King Knut]

Agree wholeheartedly.

But I don't fully blame Luke or Mac at this point. If Murray was in charge I think they'd be playing better.

I think they haven't got a clue what to do.

I think something similar of VLC. I think his coach doesn't know how to use him.

That's partially because VLC isn't as versatile as you'd hope, partially because he was never a good fit, and partially because chief is out of his league.

But I don't think we have any idea how good or bad Luke, Coburn, Mac and MDZ could be playing.

Guys like G, Jake & Streit are doing well shortly by leaning on their own skill sets and improvisation. They're just that good and smart.

The others need help. A system. Coaching. Right now they're all lost and Chief doesn't know how to navigate.

The problem is that they have already done stupid things.

VLC, Umberger, Luke Schenn, MacDonald, etc. This team just needs to shed the dead weight.

I would much rather see the kids play (Hagg, Morin, Ghost [injured, I know], than these over-paid under-performers.

And just maybe it is time to bring back Terry Murray as head coach? This team just looks lost right now.

[pilldoc]

@JackStraw  Yeah, good point, MDZ does make 3 distinct moves that Hexy has made....to quote Meatloaf...2 out of 3 ain't bad.

 

great song...great artist....

 

You'll never find your gold on a sandy beach

You'll never drill for oil  a valued FA on a city street

I know you're looking for a ruby D-man  in a mountain of rocks

But there ain't no Coup de Ville  Stanley Cup hiding at the bottom

Of a Cracker Jack box

 

But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you

Now don't be sad

'Cause two out of three ain't bad

I want you, I need you

But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you

Now don't be sad

'Cause two out of three ain't bad

Baby we can talk all night

But that ain't getting us nowhere

[King Knut]

When you play with a guy who clearly isn't super skilled, but tried as hard as Hartsy does night after night minute after minute, it runs off.

Right now they can look at G and Jake, but those two are skatin in skills and improvisational play making the rest of the team knows they don't have. Streit too. Those three have great vision and greT execution.

Simmonds could step into that Hartnell role well and when he plays like that good things happen.

But alas none of that ultimately matters because these guys aren't being coached right now. Te more time goes by, Chief can't possibly be telling them what they're doing wrong and if anything he can only be telling them to do these things they're doing wrong.

Everyone is always out of position. That's literally what the coach is supposed to be doing. That's what a system is. They have none.

I'll bite...

I do, I think he provided leadership to the team, he kept guys loose, he had your back, he is a great teammate. He's the kind of player that is good to have on your team, he's a guy that plays for his teammates and because he'd be one of the longest tenured Flyers he would have the respect in the room for guys to follow his lead. I don't see anyone stepping up to that role with this bunch. So...

Even though on the score sheet he's doing diddly/pooh with CBJ, I think our team misses him more than his production.

[pilldoc]

 That does not say much for our pro scouts. There was a reason he was a healthy scratch down the stretch for the Jackets. They should have known exactly what we were getting back.

 

Agreed...and the same can be said of Bryzaster.  If only the scouts did their due diligence, but then again, wasn't it Snider that said the goalie carousel was never going to happen again.  Hence, the probable marching orders he gave to Homer.

 

Yea...I don't put much faith in out pro scouts.

[idahophilly]

spitting up my drink....LOL......

 

   +    =

That's awesome....

[Cheesesteak]

The problem is that they have already done stupid things.

 

VLC, Umberger, Luke Schenn, MacDonald, etc. This team just needs to shed the dead weight.

 

I would much rather see the kids play (Hagg, Morin, Ghost [injured, I know], than these over-paid under-performers.

 

And just maybe it is time to bring back Terry Murray as head coach? This team just looks lost right now.

As long as they don't throw good stupid after bad  

....they've done some real bad stupid the past few years and whatever they do should be towards climbing out of the hole they put themselves in instead of trying for the instant fix.

[pilldoc]

Everyone is always out of position. That's literally what the coach is supposed to be doing. That's what a system is. They have none.

 

 

Therefore the crux of the problem.  Not very good or skilled players + playing for a coach who has no system = a disaster on the ice = a very bad team.

[Cheesesteak]

Simmonds could step into that Hartnell role well and when he plays like that good things happen.

But alas none of that ultimately matters because these guys aren't being coached right now. Te more time goes by, Chief can't possibly be telling them what they're doing wrong and if anything he can only be telling them to do these things they're doing wrong.

Everyone is always out of position. That's literally what the coach is supposed to be doing. That's what a system is. They have none.

 

TOTALLY AGREE on both points.   Though I don't want to see Chief leave til end of season so they can get a high draft pick, Vinny will retire out of frustration and the Flyers can start rebuilding with the high draft pick and get a FA with the cap room VLC leaving provides.  Bring in one of the young D and get this ship turned around.   Buyout Umbergler while your at it....****, use the money saved from VLC to buyout Umbergler would be a win-win in itself.

[King Knut]

That math is impossible to refute.

You can get rid of some players, but the ones that are left will still be in the land of the lost out there.

You can replace the coach, but even a genius coach is still going to be cooking with spoiled meat.

No win situation. I think we're back to doing whatever we can to make VLC and Umberger tradeable. Get them scoring even if it costs more goals against and ends up in more losses. Anything to give them appeal to desperate teams at deadline.

Therefore the crux of the problem. Not very good or skilled players...playing for a coach who has no system = a disaster on the ice = a very bad team.

[ruxpin]

I'll bite...

I do, I think he provided leadership to the team, he kept guys loose, he had your back, he is a great teammate. He's the kind of player that is good to have on your team, he's a guy that plays for his teammates and because he'd be one of the longest tenured Flyers he would have the respect in the room for guys to follow his lead. I don't see anyone stepping up to that role with this bunch. So...

Even though on the score sheet he's doing diddly/pooh with CBJ, I think our team misses him more than his production.

Maybe. And I've argued similarly.

On the other hand, this team played like crap and sold out a good coach just last year WITH Hartnell on it, so...

[jammer2]

I agree to a point jammer but we really dont know what Hexy is yet... the only trade he made was for RJ and that has been anything but good (dont get me wrong b/c I get the 2 years less).   We really dont know what Hexy is right now...

 

 I agree. The sample size for Hexy is to small to judge any trends or truly evaluate his work to this point. I'm just throwing a theory that I believe he's much less of a yes man than Homer was.....at least, that's what I'm hoping....I'm kinda getting that type of vibe...time will tell.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

@murraycraven

@sarsippius

 

Damm organization never learns as damm thing.  It's like forever groundhod day.  The same vicisous cycle always repeats itself.  @fanaticV3.0, I hope your spidey sense is wrong.  This board will go absolutely ape-$hiite if they pull another knee-jerking reactionary move.  Someone needs to take the car keys, phones, and computers away from Snider.

 

Hold up Sparky, nothing has happened yet, lol. Don't go blaming them for something they didn't do it. I think something could happen, but nothing has yet. Ha, I love that we are already blaming them.

 

I like that us nerds are representing in this thread.

[JackStraw]

Hold up Sparky, nothing has happened yet, lol. Don't go blaming them for something they didn't do it. I think something could happen, but nothing has yet. Ha, I love that we are already blaming them.

 

I like that us nerds are representing in this thread.

 

The Sky is Always Falling in Philadelphia.

[fanaticV3.0]

Do people actually think that Hartnell being here would make any sort of difference?

No and I've actually stated this on other threads. I wish he were here, think the team needs more guys like him, but when I say they need vets, I don't mean guys like him. He's a lieutenant at best. He can be a secondary leader, someone who rallies around and supports the real leaders, but when I say they need vets, I mean a Pronger or Timonen. Hell, this team could use both and 2 more. They sorely lack leadership and the wiley old vet factor.

[fanaticV3.0]

unless it's dead weight like VLC nor umberger, no trade makes sense.

Hextall is pissed not because jeyne bad but because they're even worse than they should be.

By a lot.

They should be threatening to win occasionally.

Trades to improve will do nothing as Berube seems to me to be the major problem.

Benching Vinny, Luke and others can't hurt but the system and the coaching still isn't there to prevent goals.

This "defense first" coach has his defense doing anything but defending.

When the offense helps out, they get scored on less, but don't score at all. When the offense tries to score more, the defense gets schooled.

They're "bad" because of the players. They're "horrible" backside Chief. And it gives me no pleasure to say that. I want him to be good.

He's simply outclassed in this league.

 

 

Exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I'm not in the mood to have this conversation again, but that's a no. They are largely a one line team. Their defense is a sh-t show. You can't say trades would improve nothing. That's sh-t. Even with just Timonen and Hartnell last year they were a better team

[mojo1917]

The loss of Timonen and Hartnell in the locker room is looking to be a bigger problem than losing them on the ice.

 

Those two are excellent teammates, were part of the leadership group, plus they contributed significantly on the ice while here.  

 

Those guys were a large part of the "play of each other" culture that I saw last year, this year ,  there is a lack of cohesion with this group of players that I think would be greatly reduced if we had those guys available.

 

Having Timonen available to play defense made everyone better, even if he was looking methuselah-esque,  his presence is missed.  Striet is a good player but he doesn't seem to have the steadying influence on his peers that Kimmo had.

 

I said something similar in to this in a different thread.

[fanaticV3.0]

  It's a different era. You can't compare previous Flyer GM's to Hexy current reign. I believe he's not a yes man....and I believe that he took the job knowing their was no strings attached. I'm sure he knew about Homer's previous problems, ie being forced or coerced into signing Bryz etc. Of course, I have no proof of this, but my gut says he made it clear to Snider that this was his show. Why would you enter into a situation where you have no control over things that will go directly on his job resume? I'm sure the Flyers were not his only suitor. He didn't *have* to take the Flyers job, so why enter into a situation where his hands are tied before he ever sits down to his desk?

 

  Assuming my theory is correct, Hexy will make no panic moves. He may make minor moves to appease Snider, but the core will stay intact. So far, he's made two significant moves, the depth signing of Schultlz, which was an excellent move....and the ill advised trading of Harts for Crapberger. There was a means to and end, helping out future cap savings, but the move itself moved the franchise back considerably, to the point where the cap savings were not worth the deal. Why would he make a move which could further damage his reputation? Unless something comes across his desk that is an absolute win, the team stands pat.

 

Different era than what? Since when does Ed Snider listen to anyone? We're a quarter way into the new season and the old man was already showing signs of impatience. Even if they don't trade any core players, and I hope they don't, he's going to so something drastic (like fire the coach for example). I don't have any attachment to Berube, but firing a guy after a year and "starting over" (again) is moronic. Ed Snider never sits back and does nothing. If he suddenly changed at his age, while I'd welcome it, I would be shocked.

[radoran]

so trading cotourier is a stupid move?  at cotourier's current price, he's so so.  if they can get a top 6 forward for him or a top 4 defensman for him, or a 2nd round draft pick, it would be stupid not to.  signing him to anything over $3 mill a year would be the biggest mistake they could make.  he has the talent of adam hall or blair betts.

 

At $1.75M thru next season, Couturier is more than making up his production for salary.

 

They don't need to determine whether to sign him long term rightnow or even next year (he's still RFA after this season).

 

That said, if the right deal comes along (a 2nd round pick is no where NEAR a "top 6 F" or "top 4 D") I agree you make it. Trading him for a second round pick would be a huge mistake.

 

And, just for the record, he has more talent in his off hand than Adam Hall and Blair Betts have combined.

[ruxpin]

At $1.75M thru next season, Couturier is more than making up his production for salary.

 

They don't need to determine whether to sign him long term rightnow or even next year (he's still RFA after this season).

 

That said, if the right deal comes along (a 2nd round pick is no where NEAR a "top 6 F" or "top 4 D") I agree you make it. Trading him for a second round pick would be a huge mistake.

 

And, just for the record, he has more talent in his off hand than Adam Hall and Blair Betts have combined.

 

Couldn't have said that better myself....or did I?

[fanaticV3.0]

so trading cotourier is a stupid move?  at cotourier's current price, he's so so.  if they can get a top 6 forward for him or a top 4 defensman for him, or a 2nd round draft pick, it would be stupid not to.  signing him to anything over $3 mill a year would be the biggest mistake they could make.  he has the talent of adam hall or blair betts.

 

1. We need a top 2 defenseman, a 1 and 2 would be nice actually, not a top 4 guy. We need Pronger or Timonen, not a 3/4 being asked to play that role.

 

2. Couturier does not get you that. No one in their right mind is going to trade a stud defender for Couturier, who I admittedly like despite the fact he has the offensive skills of a blind man.

 

3. Yes, I would trade him for a top tier defenseman (always exceptions), but as point 2 already stated, that will not happen.

 

4. I'm the last person to correct someone's grammar, but please learn how to spell the man's name. We're on the internet for God's sake.

 

5. The offensive skill of blair betts or adam hall, yes I agree he's not much better. But defensively? You can throw him out there against the top line of other teams and not even be scared when doing it. AND he's only 21. Think about that for a second. 

[King Knut]

My friend, if you can trade Umberger and VLC's contracts for faster better defense, be my guest.

In the mean time trading coots and B Schenn for magic "veteran" beans isn't going to help this team. That's more of the 10 years. No thanks.

And nothing anyone can say will cj Vince me that Berube knows what he's doing. If the team suddenly starts to play defense and pay attention to where the opposition is instead of the center dot, then I'll believe it.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm not in the mood to have this conversation again, but that's a no. They are largely a one line team. Their defense is a sh-t show. You can't say trades would improve nothing. That's sh-t. Even with just Timonen and Hartnell last year they were a better team

[icehole]

Cotourier had a surprisingly solid rookie season.  Since then he is a -10 with 64 pts in 153 games.  That's correct, our amazing "shut-down" forward is a -10!  These numbers are horrible but I'm more of an eye test guy.  My eyes tell me he his slow physically and slow mentally when it comes to seeing a play develop.

You can believe Doc, Pierre, JJ, and Coatsey all you want.  He is nothing more than a third liner and that value might be a 2nd rounder.  Now if other GMs in the league are drinking the same Kool-Aid, which I believe the are, we might be able to get something nice for him.