WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I share his sentiment. This season is already lost. The talent on this roster has maxed out, so they won't be any better next year or the year after. This is what they are, and what they are isn't good enough. It's time to start another rebuild. Players that have to go right now: Kessel (has value to teams that need a game-breaker to put them over the top, but Leafs are so far away from winning that his goal scoring is wasted on this team)Phaneuf (can be a useful #3 or #4 defenceman, but from what I've seen lately, he damn sure isn't a top line guy)Clarkson (provides some toughness and physical play for a long playoff grind, but not much else)Reimer or Bernier (might not be a bad idea to trade Bernier since his value is much higher to other teams and keep Reimer around for the rebuild)Franson (total defensive liability has offensive upside, Leafs need to ****-can players that play this style of game)Gardiner (all around useless at everything, just release him)Polak (won't be around when this team is ready to compete again)Lupul (guy can't stay healthy and that makes him useless)Robidas (only because of his age, certainly not for his strong defensive performance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Flyers will trade Luke Schenn for JVR straight up.....Leafs need defense!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 For the life of me I cannot understand how the Leafs cannot win with this lineup. talent all over the place, looks like Carlyle was not the problem, they are wretched since he got the ax...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Flyers will trade Luke Schenn for JVR straight up.....Leafs need defense!!!! ROFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 ROFL. I know i tried.....i'm not sure why the Leafs have failed to sign a nice defensive free agent....it's like they suffer from some of the same issues that plague my Flyers just think you sign a bunch of 3rd 4th and 5th defenseman and get by no true stud 1st or even 2nd Dmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 talent all over the place Except on the blueline.....Polak was a bad disaster signing i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 For the life of me I cannot understand how the Leafs cannot win with this lineup. talent all over the place, looks like Carlyle was not the problem, they are wretched since he got the ax...... There is plenty of offensive talent, but almost no defensive talent. Stephane Robidas is the only Leafs defenceman that can play D, with Phaneuf managing to fake it from time to time. The other four guys (Franson, Gardiner, Rielly, and Polak) are completely lost in their own zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I know i tried.....i'm not sure why the Leafs have failed to sign a nice defensive free agent....it's like they suffer from some of the same issues that plague my Flyers just think you sign a bunch of 3rd 4th and 5th defenseman and get by no true stud 1st or even 2nd Dmen. Exactly. The Leafs have never had a #1 defenceman in my life. They've never had a Norris trophy winner, and haven't even had a defenceman be nominated for the Norris trophy in my life. Whenever fans think of great Leafs players they think of Gilmour, Sundin, Clark, Joseph, Belfour, etc.... nowhere does a defenceman ever enter into the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The Leafs have never had a #1 defenceman in my life. Well you had your chance....remember at the 91 draft you guys could of had Scott Niedermayer............yet traded that pick....bad choice. Sorry not trying to throw salt in the wound...my Flyers have made their draft miscues as well so i know the feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilmonkey Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Exactly. The Leafs have never had a #1 defenceman in my life. They've never had a Norris trophy winner, and haven't even had a defenceman be nominated for the Norris trophy in my life. Whenever fans think of great Leafs players they think of Gilmour, Sundin, Clark, Joseph, Belfour, etc.... nowhere does a defenceman ever enter into the list. they may not win norris trophies but at least 1 started a very successful coffee franchise lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabs1993 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 For the life of me I cannot understand how the Leafs cannot win with this lineup. talent all over the place, looks like Carlyle was not the problem, they are wretched since he got the ax......Agreed. I remember that post you had a while ago about the Senators having a great team for years that couldn't capitalize. I can't help but feel that in about 10 years we'll be saying the same thing about these Leafs. The only difference being that Ottawa had regular season success back in the day. Kessel, Lupul and JVR could be productive on cup winning teams. Toronto is funny like that. Canadian teams in general, really, but Toronto more than any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Agreed. I remember that post you had a while ago about the Senators having a great team for years that couldn't capitalize. I can't help but feel that in about 10 years we'll be saying the same thing about these Leafs. The only difference being that Ottawa had regular season success back in the day. Kessel, Lupul and JVR could be productive on cup winning teams. Toronto is funny like that. Canadian teams in general, really, but Toronto more than any of them. The Sens started to get good around the late 1990's and it culminated in their first Cup final appearance ~2006 or 2007 (I forget which). That team was absolutely loaded. The Leafs have never had a team like that in my lifetime. The best Leafs team (of my age) was either the 1993 team with Gilmour, Clark, Andreychuk, Potvin, et all, or the 2002 team that had Sundin, Mogilny, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Francis, McCabe, Joseph/Belfour (I forget which) et all. The 2006 Senators would have crushed either one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I share his sentiment. This season is already lost. The talent on this roster has maxed out, so they won't be any better next year or the year after. This is what they are, and what they are isn't good enough. It's time to start another rebuild. Players that have to go right now: Kessel (has value to teams that need a game-breaker to put them over the top, but Leafs are so far away from winning that his goal scoring is wasted on this team)Phaneuf (can be a useful #3 or #4 defenceman, but from what I've seen lately, he damn sure isn't a top line guy)Clarkson (provides some toughness and physical play for a long playoff grind, but not much else)Reimer or Bernier (might not be a bad idea to trade Bernier since his value is much higher to other teams and keep Reimer around for the rebuild)Franson (total defensive liability has offensive upside, Leafs need to ****-can players that play this style of game)Gardiner (all around useless at everything, just release him)Polak (won't be around when this team is ready to compete again)Lupul (guy can't stay healthy and that makes him useless)Robidas (only because of his age, certainly not for his strong defensive performance) Sharks would take Reimer lol. Before the Dillon for Demers trade, you probably could have unloaded Gardiner on us as our left side defense was unreal thin. Thin enough that Gardiner would have been an improvement. Our pairings were:Vlasic/Braun*******/Burns*******/Demers ******* was any one of rookie Mueller, who is really is NHL ready, but only for sheltered minutes, although he did better than the next two....Hannan(Retire already. Old folks home) and Irwin(For god's sakes Wilson, waive him already). Now our Pairings are:Vlasic/BurnsDillon/Braun*******/Tennyson Mueller is out injured, but nothing serious, so we are forced to play Hannan/Irwin. And they sure as hell are not going to pay a bottom pairing defenseman the amount those guys are making, and Wilson said no more rentals for a few years(Franson). We are loaded at forward, so no Kessel/Clarkson wanted, etc If we could be sure to resign Franson, Wilson might bite, but it would not be for anyone we don't want to part with. So none of our good prospects or roster players or 1st rounders. Wilson pretty much flat out stated that he would not trade any young talent anymore, or our first round picks. Shame since we actually have 6 million in cap space. Reimer for a 3rd or 4th is what you would get from the Sharks lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Sharks would take Reimer lol. Before the Dillon for Demers trade, you probably could have unloaded Gardiner on us as our left side defense was unreal thin. Thin enough that Gardiner would have been an improvement. Our pairings were:Vlasic/Braun*******/Burns*******/Demers ******* was any one of rookie Mueller, who is really is NHL ready, but only for sheltered minutes, although he did better than the next two....Hannan(Retire already. Old folks home) and Irwin(For god's sakes Wilson, waive him already). Now our Pairings are:Vlasic/BurnsDillon/Braun*******/Tennyson Mueller is out injured, but nothing serious, so we are forced to play Hannan/Irwin. And they sure as hell are not going to pay a bottom pairing defenseman the amount those guys are making, and Wilson said no more rentals for a few years(Franson). We are loaded at forward, so no Kessel/Clarkson wanted, etc If we could be sure to resign Franson, Wilson might bite, but it would not be for anyone we don't want to part with. So none of our good prospects or roster players or 1st rounders. Wilson pretty much flat out stated that he would not trade any young talent anymore, or our first round picks. Shame since we actually have 6 million in cap space. Reimer for a 3rd or 4th is what you would get from the Sharks lol Most likely Kessel will be moved by the trade deadline. He's the only player on the Leafs that other teams would really want to have... despite his warts. There are 15 teams in the NHL that could use more scoring. And if Kessel goes, the Leafs are going to get at least a first round draft pick for him and probably another roster player. That would be a *perfect* way to start a rebuild. Phaneuf is going to be tricky to get rid of because of his awful contract. He's a mediocre defenceman that is currently being paid about 2x what he's worth. Leafs may be stuck with him. Polak and Robidas should be easy to unload to playoff contenders looking to add depth. Neither will figure into the Leafs future. Bernier would be a fantastic player to trade. If a playoff bound team loses their #1 goalie to injury, Bernier could step in and be the guy. The Leafs should be able to get another first round draft pick for Bernier. They can make Reimer the #1 guy again and see what he can do with a full schedule to work with next season. Since the team would be rebuilding, there would be no pressure to win. Clarkson is probably unmovable. Can't see any team having any interest in him at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Exactly. The Leafs have never had a #1 defenceman in my life. They've never had a Norris trophy winner, and haven't even had a defenceman be nominated for the Norris trophy in my life. Whenever fans think of great Leafs players they think of Gilmour, Sundin, Clark, Joseph, Belfour, etc.... nowhere does a defenceman ever enter into the list. I'm trying to go to someone more recent but if someone asked me best defenseman (or most memorable) for the Leafs in my lifetime, I have to go back to Borje Salming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm trying to go to someone more recent but if someone asked me best defenseman (or most memorable) for the Leafs in my lifetime, I have to go back to Borje Salming. Exactly, and that's before my hockey watching time. When did Salming play? 1970's? 1980's? The Leafs have had plenty of players that USED to be great on OTHER teams which have passed through Toronto on their way into retirement. But no "A-level" defenceman has ever suited up in the blue and white, in their PRIME, and had the best years of their career in Toronto, in the last say 25-30 years or so. Borje Salming (of which I know precious little about) would be the last great D-man for the Leafs I guess. I'll take your word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Exactly, and that's before my hockey watching time. When did Salming play? 1970's? 1980's? The Leafs have had plenty of players that USED to be great on OTHER teams which have passed through Toronto on their way into retirement. But no "A-level" defenceman has ever suited up in the blue and white, in their PRIME, and had the best years of their career in Toronto, in the last say 25-30 years or so. Borje Salming (of which I know precious little about) would be the last great D-man for the Leafs I guess. I'll take your word for it. Yeah, 70s and 80s. (career ended in 1990, but he was a shadow of himself by then). There's probably (maybe?) someone since then, but that's where my mind immediately went to. I can't think of anyone really since then, though, now that I think about it. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nORRis8 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Kessel has value if a team is looking for a goalscorer and an asshole.Phaneuf adds value if a team is looking for a human stickrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm trying to go to someone more recent but if someone asked me best defenseman (or most memorable) for the Leafs in my lifetime, I have to go back to Borje Salming. Whaaaat.....no love for the skills of the mighty Tomas Kaberle???The MUCH balley-hoooooed Kaberle? The guy, whom every time I watched a Bolts-Leafs game I had to sit through and listen to announcers talk about how the Lightning needed to find THEIR Tomas Kaberle? (Yea, and we all needed to find a case of the flu to make us happy too...but I digress....) Surely Tomas Kaberle HAS to fit into the annals of the greats when talking about ANY hallmark Leaf defensemen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Whaaaat.....no love for the skills of the mighty Tomas Kaberle???The MUCH balley-hoooooed Kaberle?The guy, whom every time I watched a Bolts-Leafs game I had to sit through and listen to announcers talk about how the Lightning needed to find THEIR Tomas Kaberle? (Yea, and we all needed to find a case of the flu to make us happy too...but I digress....)Surely Tomas Kaberle HAS to fit into the annals of the greats when talking about ANY hallmark Leaf defensemen.....I'm not sure if I'm applying my own feelings, but your post has a twinge of sarcasm to me. In any case, Kaberle does not reach the level for me. He was not elite to me. And definitely not on par with Salming. Probably the best since Salming, though, which only strengthens the point about the Leafs and defensemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm not sure if I'm applying my own feelings, but your post has a twinge of sarcasm to me.In any case, Kaberle does not reach the level for me. He was not elite to me. And definitely not on par with Salming.Probably the best since Salming, though, which only strengthens the point about the Leafs and defensemen. Yes...i have been known to twinge from time to time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Yeah, 70s and 80s. (career ended in 1990, but he was a shadow of himself by then). There's probably (maybe?) someone since then, but that's where my mind immediately went to. I can't think of anyone really since then, though, now that I think about it. Wow. Well, there was Bryan McCabe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabs1993 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 The Sens started to get good around the late 1990's and it culminated in their first Cup final appearance ~2006 or 2007 (I forget which). That team was absolutely loaded. The Leafs have never had a team like that in my lifetime. The best Leafs team (of my age) was either the 1993 team with Gilmour, Clark, Andreychuk, Potvin, et all, or the 2002 team that had Sundin, Mogilny, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Francis, McCabe, Joseph/Belfour (I forget which) et all. The 2006 Senators would have crushed either one of them. I'm not saying they are an absolute power house, but they have enough of the pieces to leave a lot to be desired. That playoff appearance in 2013 was impressive and I don't think people realize how close the leafs were to making a legitimate push. And now they're on the verge of being blown up. I remember the announcers on CBC getting the cup parade ready when the leafs led 4-1 in the third in game 7 in Boston. Instead, they were sent packing and have not come close to returning to that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Kaberle was just way too soft to be considered a great defenceman. Plus he refused to shoot. He was a great passer, but it got to the point everyone in the arena knew he was going to pass. McCabe was just way too McCabe to be considered a great defenceman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Kaberle was just way too soft to be considered a great defenceman. Plus he refused to shoot. He was a great passer, but it got to the point everyone in the arena knew he was going to pass. McCabe was just way too McCabe to be considered a great defenceman. Agreed. The Leafs have had a variety of defencemen that were okay, and the Toronto media has done their best over the years to *try* and make them stars, but McCabe was average to decent, Kaberle was a good passer but not much else. He wasn't an "A-level" defenceman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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