fanaticV3.0 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That's key. They've been bad for two years and aren't yet worse. Aren't yet worse than what? I'm not sure what you mean there. They are likely going to be worse than last year. The thing that baffles me the most is that I'm not completely sure what the problem (not implying there is a singular issue) is and what I'd do about it. I generally like the core, several of them have shown improvement during their time here, but the team itself stinks. I'm hopeful they can get better by adding more players to the current group, not shipping some of them out, because despite team issues, some of the individuals are pretty good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I am not focusing on G.I never singled him out.I am just concerned about his contract.No matter how much you love him, his cap hit is huge, and his play doesn't justify it.I agree that the team has many other issues. I just hope that G's contract doesn't become the albatross that VLC's did.What / who would you trade G for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I am fine with this speculation, I'm just saying I don't trade G unless I get that team's best player back , in these cases I picked defenseman. Salary wise they could work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 A good read aboot Clod Gerooo... Like clockwork, the Philly media wants to strip Claude Giroux's captaincy again http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/3/11/8196411/fire-all-the-beat-writers The Flyers fell out of the playoff race this week. It didn't even take two days for the bored Philly media to write about how awful Claude Giroux is as a captain. Some great point to read enjoy........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 A good read aboot Clod Gerooo... Like clockwork, the Philly media wants to strip Claude Giroux's captaincy again http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/3/11/8196411/fire-all-the-beat-writers The Flyers fell out of the playoff race this week. It didn't even take two days for the bored Philly media to write about how awful Claude Giroux is as a captain. Some great point to read enjoy........Wow.....that guy is a real piece of........work. Is it possible he is receiving russian input from our own local G hater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Wow.....that guy is a real piece of........work. Is it possible he is receiving russian input from our own local G hater? Maybe he has been flooding his email with the G is suk title and figured what the hell why not we haven't asked for G's captaincy in over a year!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 As a Pens fan, I like to laugh at the blown up notion of "the shift" as Flyers fans call it, the "World's Greatest Player", the whining over wrist slashing, and of course Buttgate. However...This thread is outright stupid. Anyone that thinks Giroux is overpaid better be talking about ALL star players in that light, or they're an idiot. Giroux, as much as I hate the Flyers, earns what he's paid. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caluso Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 As a Pens fan, I like to laugh at the blown up notion of "the shift" as Flyers fans call it, the "World's Greatest Player", the whining over wrist slashing, and of course Buttgate. However...This thread is outright stupid. Anyone that thinks Giroux is overpaid better be talking about ALL star players in that light, or they're an idiot. Giroux, as much as I hate the Flyers, earns what he's paid. Period.i started the post and i think that Giroux is overpaid. i think that in a hard salary cap league, every dollar matters. is he a good player? of course!!!!! is he worth 8.7 million per year? i am really not sure, but i am not sure anyone is. and, let's face it, the flyers are excellent at throwing money at players whether they deserve it or not. that's a large reason we have so many cap issues (that, and horrible player development / drafting - assuming we actually have picks) G's stats are decent but the fact that he doesn't have one even strength goal at home is alarming. is he dominant these days? no. does he make players around him better? not sure. on another note, the team's leadership is really sub-par. we can all agree that the team is maddeningly inconsistent. is that entirely Giroux's fault? absolutely not. however, he is the team's "leader" on the ice and has to share some responsibility for the team's indifference. i remember the days when the captain "would set the tone." G hasn't done that.having said that, there are far too many players on the team that display no passion. the big question is, why? i think this is going to be an interesting off-season.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If I was the owner of a sports franchise that had douchebags like this guy writing crap like that I wouldn't allow them near the team. If Giroux was taking games off, that s one thing. This board can come up with things to talk about on a daily basis.... you'd think a guy who gets paid to could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 i started the post and i think that Giroux is overpaid. i think that in a hard salary cap league, every dollar matters. is he a good player? of course!!!!! is he worth 8.7 million per year? i am really not sure, but i am not sure anyone is.and, let's face it, the flyers are excellent at throwing money at players whether they deserve it or not. that's a large reason we have so many cap issues (that, and horrible player development / drafting - assuming we actually have picks)G's stats are decent but the fact that he doesn't have one even strength goal at home is alarming. is he dominant these days? no. does he make players around him better? not sure.on another note, the team's leadership is really sub-par. we can all agree that the team is maddeningly inconsistent. is that entirely Giroux's fault? absolutely not. however, he is the team's "leader" on the ice and has to share some responsibility for the team's indifference. i remember the days when the captain "would set the tone." G hasn't done that.having said that, there are far too many players on the team that display no passion. the big question is, why? i think this is going to be an interesting off-season....Questioning his captaincy I get. Questioning his contract I do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 From Philly.com this morning... http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20150312_How_failing_offense_doomed_Flyers__chances.html ---------- Leadership questions Hextall conceded there are some leadership questions surrounding his team, but didn't point the finger at Giroux, the team's captain. "I think given the inconsistencies, it's something we have to evaluate and see where we think it's at," he said when asked if there were leadership issues. Was he referring to Giroux? "No. Leadership doesn't come down to one guy anymore," Hextall said. "Those days are gone. Now it's a group. Typically your older players, sometimes middle-aged guys, can add to it. It's five, six, seven guys typically that you depend on for the bulk of your leadership." In the last year, the Flyers have traded two of their leaders, Hartnell and Kimmo Timonen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Questioning his captaincy I get. Questioning his contract I do not.Not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison, but Nick Lidstrom never made what G makes. Ever. Could he have been paid more? Oh, absolutely. He--on purpose--stayed with the Red Wings and limited his contract, following the footsteps of Steve Yzerman, to allow the front office to afford to pay solid supporting players that allow the team to have a better chance to win. He capped his salary at $8M.It's hard not to argue that in a vacuum, G might be worth what he gets, because on the FA market, Lidstrom could have commanded much more than he did, IIRC someone offered him $12-13M and he turned that down to stay. In Detroit. But the question is would getting paid all that you are supposedly worth have been smart? And the answer is the same answer as this one: What's more important, making as much money as you can or winning Cups?I'm not slamming G here, because it took Yzerman many years of making what he could and losing in the playoffs before he got smart and elected to lower his salary to allow the Red Wing organization to buy more talent, and that was well before the cap! It can be a difficult lesson for BOTH a player and an organization to learn. Some never learn it, and it almost relegates their chances of winning a Cup to waiting until they might be available as a rental and winning one on a different team rather than committing to stay and develop an organization that wins consistently year in and year out.The salary cap has only made this more important.Bottom line: I think G is overpaid if the idea is to win Cups, not necessarily if what the market would bear is the yardstick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Bottom line: I think G is overpaid if the idea is to win Cups, not necessarily if what the market would bear is the yardstick. Sure....and you could say the same thing with about 95% of the best players on any team. Crosby probably could have asked for more...but he also makes way more money from sponsors than every other NHL player. Wayne Simmonds and Jake Voracek might be underpaid. They probably also earned big raises next contract. John Tavares is definately underpaid by star standards. But also wasn't quite doing what he is now when he signed. As for Lidstrom never making what Giroux did...neither did Orr, Howe, LaFleur, Bossy, Trottier, Clarke, Lemieux etc. Gretzky never made what Steven Weiss is making on Detroit. Lidstrom had his best years in a different time and was paid for it. From 89 to 08 he was the 2nd highest earning NHLer. Maybe Detroit could have won more cups if he wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I\ Sure....and you could say the same thing with about 95% of the best players on any team. Crosby probably could have asked for more...but he also makes way more money from sponsors than every other NHL player. Wayne Simmonds and Jake Voracek might be underpaid. They probably also earned big raises next contract. John Tavares is definately underpaid by star standards. But also wasn't quite doing what he is now when he signed. As for Lidstrom never making what Giroux did...neither did Orr, Howe, LaFleur, Bossy, Trottier, Clarke, Lemieux etc. Gretzky never made what Steven Weiss is making on Detroit. Lidstrom had his best years in a different time and was paid for it. From 89 to 08 he was the 2nd highest earning NHLer. Maybe Detroit could have won more cups if he wasn't?I get all of that. I'm not saying you're totally wrong. But in today's game, NO ONE is winning a lot of Cups, Wings included. But there's a difference between not winning many Cups, and not winning any at all. The way Cups are won is to put together a solid team, but it also relies on breaks, health, and luck. Whereas in the past you could horde talent and if a few went down you could still win, you can't do that in today's game. Lidstrom still played in Giroux's era, and there will be SOME increase, but looking at the end of Lidstrom's career, the change in the salary cap tells you the "cost of playing" if you will, so if slaries go up more than that, without improved level of play to justify that, that's different. Lidstrom was the 2nd highest paid player because his contract was a carryover from before the cap, when players were being offered $12-13M at his level. He took 8. In today's game, it is even more important to be that way--paid to a level whee your team can win. I look at Minnesota and see a team overpaying two players who I think will struggle for a long time, because they won't be able to put together 4 solid lines. And, if either (or both) go down, will have little left to compete seriously at a Cup level. G is obviously not at that level, but the principle still stands, and it takes an organization to really commit themselves to not overpaying except in the very short run, perhaps, if it can make a legitimate difference between no Cup and a Cup. The teams that have understood this best are the teams that are now consistently playing good hockey and competing for Cups. I agree that Voracek is underpaid. He will get his next contract, although he would be wise to save some so that the office can give him more players to spread the talent beyond his line more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison, but Nick Lidstrom never made what G makes. Ever. Could he have been paid more? Oh, absolutely. He--on purpose--stayed with the Red Wings and limited his contract, following the footsteps of Steve Yzerman, to allow the front office to afford to pay solid supporting players that allow the team to have a better chance to win. He capped his salary at $8M.It's hard not to argue that in a vacuum, G might be worth what he gets, because on the FA market, Lidstrom could have commanded much more than he did, IIRC someone offered him $12-13M and he turned that down to stay. In Detroit. But the question is would getting paid all that you are supposedly worth have been smart? And the answer is the same answer as this one: What's more important, making as much money as you can or winning Cups?I'm not slamming G here, because it took Yzerman many years of making what he could and losing in the playoffs before he got smart and elected to lower his salary to allow the Red Wing organization to buy more talent, and that was well before the cap! It can be a difficult lesson for BOTH a player and an organization to learn. Some never learn it, and it almost relegates their chances of winning a Cup to waiting until they might be available as a rental and winning one on a different team rather than committing to stay and develop an organization that wins consistently year in and year out.The salary cap has only made this more important.Bottom line: I think G is overpaid if the idea is to win Cups, not necessarily if what the market would bear is the yardstick.Saying you wish a guy had taken less to help the team is a far cry from saying he isn't worth what he's paid. This thread was about Giroux not being worth what he's paid, and that's just plain ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 From Philly.com this morning... http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20150312_How_failing_offense_doomed_Flyers__chances.html ---------- Leadership questions Hextall conceded there are some leadership questions surrounding his team, but didn't point the finger at Giroux, the team's captain. "I think given the inconsistencies, it's something we have to evaluate and see where we think it's at," he said when asked if there were leadership issues. Was he referring to Giroux? "No. Leadership doesn't come down to one guy anymore," Hextall said. "Those days are gone. Now it's a group. Typically your older players, sometimes middle-aged guys, can add to it. It's five, six, seven guys typically that you depend on for the bulk of your leadership." In the last year, the Flyers have traded two of their leaders, Hartnell and Kimmo Timonen. Let's not get ahead ourselves and read into something that is not there... I believe Hextall was referring to the leadership group and not specifically G as an individual. Hextall traded Hartnell and Kimmo was out for the entire season. Any way you slice it Kimmo, Hartnell and G were the leaders of this Team in prior years. I think they need to address the leadership group and they need some veteran presence. Streit is not that guy... Simmonds and Mason seem to be the only people that will call it like it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Saying you wish a guy had taken less to help the team is a far cry from saying he isn't worth what he's paid. This thread was about Giroux not being worth what he's paid, and that's just plain ridiculous. Completely agree... I am calling my boss and telling her that I will take less money this year to help out Company Sorry but this is not a fantasy world we are living in. Professional athletes are about the bottom dollar and want to get paid. IMO, G is worth his contract... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 is he worth 8.7 million per year? i am really not sure, but i am not sure anyone is. Or his $8.275 cap number... The difference between $8.275 and $8.7 is the better part of a player contract at league minimum. I would agree that "no one" is really "worth" the money, but in the open market that is what the top players are getting. And Giroux is obviously a top player in the league. If I was the owner of a sports franchise that had douchebags like this guy writing crap like that I wouldn't allow them near the team. If Giroux was taking games off, that s one thing. This board can come up with things to talk about on a daily basis.... you'd think a guy who gets paid to could. You have to let the press "near the team" - the league requires it. Conversely, you can tell your players to just say "I just here not to get fined" until the league changes the rules to mandate that's illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 @SpikeDDS If Giroux already had $50-60 million in his bank account (like Lidstrom) maybe he gives a home team discount. Remember this is a guy who's always been told he's too small. When he finally showed he could play with the big boys and had Paul Holmgren handing out contracts I'm surprised it wasn't for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison, but Nick Lidstrom never made what G makes. Ever. Could he have been paid more? Oh, absolutely. He--on purpose--stayed with the Red Wings and limited his contract, following the footsteps of Steve Yzerman, to allow the front office to afford to pay solid supporting players that allow the team to have a better chance to win. He capped his salary at $8M. I just don't think that the "extra" $275K on Giroux's contract (over Lidstrom's) is that egregious. Nor do I think it is hamstringing the Flyers as much as other dumb contracts (MacDonald, VLC, RJ Umburglar, Pronger, etc.) And I would venture to guess that "Lidstrom's" price may have increased oh, say, $275K in the three years since he retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 A good read aboot Clod Gerooo... Like clockwork, the Philly media wants to strip Claude Giroux's captaincy again http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/3/11/8196411/fire-all-the-beat-writers The Flyers fell out of the playoff race this week. It didn't even take two days for the bored Philly media to write about how awful Claude Giroux is as a captain. Some great point to read enjoy........ I think that blogger/journalist/whatever he is comes off like a major fangirl. G is a very good player, one of the best in the league, but I see nothing wrong with questioning his leadership skills at all. He's not the reason this team stinks, but it's also not absolved from criticism. As much as I like him as a player, I see no evidence that he is a good leader. How ironic that this guy is questioning another journalist when his bio on that very site states "He worships at the First Church of Claude Giroux." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caluso Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Saying you wish a guy had taken less to help the team is a far cry from saying he isn't worth what he's paid. This thread was about Giroux not being worth what he's paid, and that's just plain ridiculous.Is he worth 3 .5 million more a year than McDonagh?And let's be clear: if I were a player in the league and my bosses were dumb enough to overpay me, I'd gladly accept.I never blamed G for taking the money. I think the organization did a terrible job negotiating his contract. Like they do time and time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think the organization did a terrible job negotiating his contract. I like that you think Homer negotiated with somebody other than himself. Typically he started out at the top and then goes up from there. The Flyers under Homer issued contracts for the way they wanted things to be, rather than as they were. They wanted Pronger to be the same player until he was 42. They wanted Richards and Crater to be the future and faces of the franchise - until they didn't. They wanted MacDonald to be a $5M defenceman - which he never was and never will be. They wanted VLC to be a missing piece. They wanted Hartnell to serve a long term "leadership" role on the franchise. And they're paying Giroux $10M this year ($8.275 cap hit) because that's the kind of player they wanted him to be at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 @caluso McDonough is definately underpaid, Is Nash worth 3.5 a year more than Voracek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Is he worth 3 .5 million more a year than McDonagh? Yes. Easy to answer. Another way to look at it is... Would you trade Giroux for McDonagh straight up? I sure wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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