What moment in Flyer history would you change if you could?

[ruxpin]

I don't remember that, it's about a year before I became hockey aware.

That is the offsides no call that lead to a goal but then what happened....I thought the islanders were the class of the league.

 

 

That was the year of "the streak."   Flyers lost the series ON that (non) call.  The Islanders became the class of the league, but that season it was still the Flyers.   It's even money whether they win it without that blown call, but they lost it on that.   It's my story.  Let me tell it.  

[ruxpin]

@mojo1917   Could not find the video, but here is a very realistic account of the "Leon Stickle game". 

 

 

 http://www.csnphilly.com/sports/today-in-philly-sports-history-the-leon-stickle-game-1980/

 

 

 "Though it's true that the Flyers ended up losing the game, one thing should be said in Stickle's defense: The goal wasn't really as consequential as you might think. When you hear people rant about how a no-call cost the Flyers the game and the series, you figure it was Bob Nystrom's famous overtime goal that should have been nulled, or that at least it was the game-tier late in regulation. In actuality, Sutter's goal merely put the Islanders up 2-1 with two whole periods to go, in what would eventually end up a 5-4 game. Sure, that's still a one-goal differential, and who knows how things would have turned out with the violation called, but as far as all-time scapegoats go, this isn't really Buckner letting the ball through his legs in the bottom of the tenth"

 

 

  Agree with all of this, it's a fair and honest assessment of what really went down.

 

All that said, it cost them the Cup.

[AJgoal]

Ricci, Foresberg...pre broken foota...Sakic with Brind'amour 2 other first round players....I would have liked that team, a lot. There wouldn't be the three years of Lindos Brindy and nothing. That trade was huge .

I liked the players you mentioned but they were assembled , the group I mentioned grew and were ultimately better IMO.

 

Sakic was a Nordiques draft pick in 87, and wouldn't have been on the Flyers. However, Jocelyn Thibault was selected with the Flyers pick in 93, and was the key to the Patric Roy trade.

[mojo1917]

thanks AJ

[radoran]

My first thought was the Lindros trade.

 

Although, the whole "take the keys from Pelle" is a great one.

 

For all the folks talking about Leaky and the Kane goal, let's not forget that that was Game 6 - the Flyers would still need to win that game and win the next game - on the road - to beat Chicago.

[mojo1917]

My first thought was the Lindros trade.

 

Although, the whole "take the keys from Pelle" is a great one.

 

For all the folks talking about Leaky and the Kane goal, let's not forget that that was Game 6 - the Flyers would still need to win that game and win the next game - on the road - to beat Chicago.

both things i think happen if brian campbell doesn't get **** ass lucky and tip Carter's shot.  nothing is guaranteed i know. but all of the pressure would be on the 'Hawks, Niemi was no daisy, there would be a game 7, and our group did pretty well with game 7's. woulda coulda shoulda.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Lindbergh....without a doubt.  Those mid 80's Flyers teams have been voted as one of the best teams to never win a Cup.  I think if Pelle lives, they get at least one.

[flyercanuck]

@DaGreatGazoo

 

Or if Tim Kerr is healthy...having that beast parked in front of the Oilers net could have sealed the deal.

[radoran]

both things i think happen if brian campbell doesn't get **** ass lucky and tip Carter's shot.  nothing is guaranteed i know. but all of the pressure would be on the 'Hawks, Niemi was no daisy, there would be a game 7, and our group did pretty well with game 7's. woulda coulda shoulda.

 

Yeah, I just have had the same conversation about "no goal" with my friends in Buffalo on more than one occasion.

[doom88]

The PKane goal thing is a bit different I think. Imagine if the Flyers actually win. If memory serves me right, they got in to the playoffs on game 82 in the shootout of all things (probably the last time the Flyers won one), guys were dropping like flies due to injuries, the 0-3 Boston series including down 3 in game 7, Gagne, etc. That becomes a hell of a story.

[radoran]

The PKane goal thing is a bit different I think. Imagine if the Flyers actually win. If memory serves me right, they got in to the playoffs on game 82 in the shootout of all things (probably the last time the Flyers won one), guys were dropping like flies due to injuries, the 0-3 Boston series including down 3 in game 7, Gagne, etc. That becomes a hell of a story.

 

It's a great story even how it ended.

 

But there's no guarantee that the story ends differently on the road in Chicago in Game 7.

[DaGreatGazoo]

It's a great story even how it ended.

 

But there's no guarantee that the story ends differently on the road in Chicago in Game 7.

 

It doesn't end differently in Game 7.  It ends in agonizing, broken-hearted defeat.  Why?  Because it's the Flyers.  

[AJgoal]

The PKane goal thing is a bit different I think. Imagine if the Flyers actually win. If memory serves me right, they got in to the playoffs on game 82 in the shootout of all things (probably the last time the Flyers won one), guys were dropping like flies due to injuries, the 0-3 Boston series including down 3 in game 7, Gagne, etc. That becomes a hell of a story.

 

I think the Flyers had a decent chance of winning the series if they win that game. But if we're going to talk about things I would undo in that game, I would have Carter score, rather than Kane not score. If Leighton makes that save, it's still sudden death OT. If Carter scores, That's the tying and go-ahead goals scored in the last 4 minutes of the game. Could the Hawks have tied? Sure, up until there are all zeros, it's possible. But the outcome would be more certain than continuing in OT.

 

Still, If I was to reverse anything, it would be the deaths of Lindbergh and Teretyshny.

[King Knut]

Mine would undoubtedly be not trading for a quality starting goalie earlier in the year and allowing Michael "Leaky" Leighton as the starter. He almost single-handedly lost the Cup for them in 2010. The other would be losing to Edmonton in 1987. One of the grittiest, guttiest teams of all-time. They even had the lead in Game 7. I was sick for DAYS after that loss.

 

Good thread idea for this time of year.

 

Candidates:

[King Knut]

Mine would undoubtedly be not trading for a quality starting goalie earlier in the year and allowing Michael "Leaky" Leighton as the starter. He almost single-handedly lost the Cup for them in 2010.  The other would be losing to Edmonton in 1987. One of the grittiest, guttiest teams of all-time. They even had the lead in Game 7. I was sick for DAYS after that loss.

 

Good thread idea for this time of year.

 

Candidates:

     -1980  Leon Stickle misses the off sides call in the first period.  Flyers should have won 4-3, but the game goes to overtime and Nystrom wins it on OT on a fair and square defensive breakdown in the neutral zone.

 

     -playing Lindros in Game 6 and 7 of the 2000 ECFs.  He wasn't ready and despite him single handedly earning a tie in game 6 (a tie which an errant time keeper with an itchy trigger finger stole from us) the rest of the team looked completely lost with him on the ice and all cohesion they had the first 4 games was completely lost.  Should have kept Lindros out until the finals and given the team at least one or two practices with him before inserting him back into the lineup.  Clarke screwed the pooch on that one.

 

     -Trying to play "nice" in the 1997 finals.  The Red Wings and Devils teams of the 90's pretty much lead the NHL to the ticky tacky calling interference every other time you touch a guy we see now.  The years immediately after the 1997 finals saw the first rules attempting to curb clutch and grab hockey (they didn't work).  In those finals the likes of Konstantinov and Fetisov and Murphy and baby Lidstrom just grabbed on to our guys and didn't let go for every minute of those pathetic 4 games.   It was an ugly ugly pathetic finals of boring ass hockey.  It should have gotten ugly and exciting and interesting.  Could we have beaten those Redwings?  Maybe not... but I would have liked to have seen a more interesting effort.

 

    -1987 is another frustrating year.  It was the Oilers and playing those oilers was a bit like playing against Tom Glavine or Greg Maddux in the 90's.  If their pitched came close you know they were gonna get the calls based on their reputations alone.  The likes of Glenn Anderson and Esa Tikkanen were straight up effing cheaters who weren't playing like "Bullies" they were playing like spineless scum, tripping, interfering and holding sticks and sneaking any kind of cheap crap like that they could get in to keep the Flyers from being able to actually play hockey and what's worse they were getting away with it.  There were a few plays in Game 7 which you can still see now on youtube that had they been called at the time, The Oilers would have lost and history would be different.

 

     -Playing Leighton in 2010 was definitely a problem, but if you're talking about 2010, the larger issue there was that Razor had catastrophic hip failure which was most likely caused by the team Doctors shooting him full of Cortisone injections instead of resting him for his inflammation.  Even so, playing Leighton in the finals wasn't originally the plan, they were rolling with what worked after Boucher went down in the middle of the Bruins series and Leighton cruised past the Habs. 

      The REAL problem with playing Leighton was once again (in my estimation) a medical/training staff problem.  Leighton had a slipped disk mid way through game 1 of the finals at which point things went bonkers.  So they were up against playing Boucher, recovering from 2 sore knees but ready to go and Leighton who had a slipped disk, the only problem is they didn't know Leighton was injured because he didn't tell anyone that he was in pain and his movement was restricted because he wanted to play in the cup finals.  BIG MISTAKE.  I don't blame them not getting a goalie earlier in the year because that didn't seem to matter.  They were winning anyway.  They needed Leighton not to effing LIE through his teeth to the staff.  Playing a not quite 100% Boucher would still have been far far better than playing a Leighton with a slipped disk... but going back further, I still believe to this day that if they training staff and doctors had sat Emery for a few weeks earlier in the season (back before they fired Stevens and Hired Lavvy) none of this would have been necessary and Emery (with Boucher backing him up) would have lead us to the cup that year. 

 

 

Those were the biggest moments, but I have others that were far more subtle.

 

-There were countless times when players would take runs at Lindros and his team would not back him up and the refs would call nothing.  Maybe it's because Eric was an ass hole...  Okay probably it was almost definitely because Eric was an Ass hole .  But you know what?  He was OUR ass hole and he was legendary on the ice and he was the best damn shot they had at a cup.  If Teams would have learned a bit earlier on that they can't take runs at Lindros and he suffers a bit less abuse over his career, maybe there's one or two fewer concussions.  Maybe there's no punctured lung.  Maybe there's a cup in 2000.  Maybe there's another cup or two sprinkled in the 90's instead of some of those early exits.  he may have been the biggest prick on earth, but he's your franchise and your captain and your best shot at winning, to hang him out to dry amidst the abuse cost this team a ton and every Flyer who didn't beat the hell out of any bruiser from another team who decided to take a run at Eric because he knew he'd get away with it should hang his head in shame now and know that it probably cost his team at last one cup.

 

More Goalie fun:

 

-Turning over the reigns to Cechmanek and trading Boucher in 2002.  This team made it to within a goal of the Cup Finals against a very good Lightning team with Robert effing Esche in nets.  ROBERT EFFING ESCHE.  Clarke should be tied in a bag and beaten with broken carbon fibre shafts for putting them in that position.  That team deserved better.

 

-Bryzgalov 

  Just.  Don't. Do It. Homer.

-Waiting 13 years to fire Lemelin.

-Hiring McCrossin.

-Not ever firing McCrossin.

 

Things that could be in the debate 2 or 3 years from now:

 

-Firing Laviolette after 3 games.

-Replacing him with Berube

-Letting Reese walk this year over an argument he was CLEARLY correct about.

[King Knut]

Don't trade for Lindros (no knock on him, but we may have won a cup with Forsberg ++++++)

 

 

I don't know that trading Poulin was so horrible.  Trading him for Linesman was idiotic though.

 

Lindros however... I totally don't buy this "We've have won a cup with Forseberg" logic.  Forsberg won cups because he came into the league and joined an utterly stacked Avalanche team with the best goalie in the world.  If they were still the Nordiques (which they would have been if they'd kept Lindros) I espouse that they'd never have won a cup because they'd never have gotten Roy and without the Lindros trade they'd have been trying to win cups with Sakic, Forseberg and Ron Tugnutt. 

 

If Forseberg comes into the league playing with that Flyers team, how good is that team and how good does he get? Who scores the goals with him and Rex passing to each other all the time?   Do the Flyers acquire LeClair and Desjardins to compliment Forseberg or do they ride out a more skill based team with Brindy and Rex complimenting him?

 

How far does any Flyers team of the 90's get without LeClair and Desjardins?

 

If Hextall never gets traded  does he still have the same resurgence in the mid 90's or just continue to slide downhill? 

 

There are far too many variables to make that argument. 

[King Knut]

It's a great story even how it ended.

But there's no guarantee that the story ends differently on the road in Chicago in Game 7.

 

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I would put a big fat wad of cashy money on the Flyers winning that series if they had a healthy Ray Emery in net.  Not today's Ray Emery.  The Ray Emery of earlier that year. 

 

I'd also put a big fat wad of Cashy money on the Flyers taking that series if they win the Patrick Kane lottery instead of the Hawks....  we really did get ROYALLY screwed on that one.  Then again, knowing Homer, maybe he wouldn't have drafted him.

[ruxpin]

  -playing Lindros in Game 6 and 7 of the 2000 ECFs.  He wasn't ready and despite him single handedly earning a tie in game 6 (a tie which an errant time keeper with an itchy trigger finger stole from us) the rest of the team looked completely lost with him on the ice and all cohesion they had the first 4 games was completely lost.  Should have kept Lindros out until the finals and given the team at least one or two practices with him before inserting him back into the lineup.  Clarke screwed the pooch on that one.

 

Good call on this one.  I hadn't thought about that in the context of this thread, but I'm completely on board.

[King Knut]

Lindbergh....without a doubt. Those mid 80's Flyers teams have been voted as one of the best teams to never win a Cup. I think if Pelle lives, they get at least one.

 

Yes.  Good one.  Imagine though... where would Hextall be now if Pelle had lived out a full NHL career?

[doom88]

It's a great story even how it ended.

But there's no guarantee that the story ends differently on the road in Chicago in Game 7.

Yeah, I know. But I can still have my scapegoats!

[doom88]

It doesn't end differently in Game 7. It ends in agonizing, broken-hearted defeat. Why? Because it's the Flyers.

Seriously you're probably right

But, at least the loss would be away.

[radoran]

If Forseberg comes into the league playing with that Flyers team, how good is that team and how good does he get?

 

Well, when you consider the Flyers gave up:

Steve Duchesne, Ron Hextall, Kerry Huffman, Mike Ricci, the rights to Peter Forsberg, the Flyers first-round pick in 1992 (7th overall) and 1993, and $15 million.

 

In 92-93 Ricci had 27 goals. The next year 30.

 

Duchesne had 20 goals and 82 points in 92-93.

 

The picks turned into Jocelyn Thibault and Nolan Baumgartner (no guarantee Flyers make same picks FWIW).

 

Forsberg's first (full) year in the league (95-96) he scored 30 goals and 16 points.

 

There are a lot of variables, but "who would have Forsberg played with" isn't really one of them.

[King Knut]

I personally wouldn't undo the Lindros trade. Without Lindros here, Clarke would probably not trade Recchi for LeClaire and Desjardins. Those two were great players here, even tho Forsberg was also.

 

That was an amazing trade by Clarke.  Maybe he was just damn lucky in what we got in LeClair, but getting Desjardins is really what helped those 90's teams to be even remotely competitive.

 

Thinking of Forsberg feeding LeClair is an amazing fantasy, but does Clarke acquire LeClair to play along side Forseberg?  Does the team let Forsberg be Forseberg or do they insist that he play like Lindros because at this point in this scenario, Lindros would have been bashing heads and taking no prisoners with Messier up in NYC with the Rangers. 

 

Which is the other thing to keep in mind.  Lindros would not have lingered with the Nordiques if the Flyers hadn't acquired him (I know I suggested that earlier, but that was wrong)  Lindros would have gone to the Rangers.  How would having to play against Lindros and Messier and the Rangers 7 times a year and in the playoffs have changed the teams that Clarke builds around Forseberg?

[FD19372]

Lindbergh....without a doubt.  Those mid 80's Flyers teams have been voted as one of the best teams to never win a Cup.  I think if Pelle lives, they get at least one.

You might be right, and he was a more technically sound goalie than Hextall, but he was struggling in 1985-86 before his horrendous accident. In fact, Bob Froese took the starting job from him. Who knows, but Pelle was one hell of a talented, young goalie. I remember my Mom telling me on the phone about the breaking news because I was sick in bed that day to begin with. That accident didn't help.

[FD19372]

@DaGreatGazoo

 

Or if Tim Kerr is healthy...having that beast parked in front of the Oilers net could have sealed the deal.

I got a #12 Timmy Kerr jersey hanging in my closet from 1985. He would've driven McSorley, Lowe, Huddy and the rest of them nuts trying to defend. One of the best power play players ever as a Flyer.