2nd greatest bruin (post expansion)

[yave1964]

   Lets start by simply stating that the greatest player in Bruin history is bobby Orr, albeit in a short career due to knee injuries. he reinvented the position, he had 888 points in 631 games, 8 straight Norris trophies, 8 straight first team all star appearances, and three consecutive Hart trophies.  He also won the Smythe during the Bruins two cup wins during his reign. So in truth it is a battle for second place. Here are your candidates:

 

RICK MIDDLETON: 3rd all time in team history with 402 goals and 4th in points he was simply stolen from the Rangers for the ghost of Ken Hodge. a second team all star and a lady bing winner, he had 5 consecutive seasons of 40 plus goals peaking at 51 in 81-82.

 

RAYMOND BOURQUE: the Bruins all time leader in scoring with 1506 points and in games played, Bourque appeared in 19 all star games for boston, won the Calder and a very impressive 5 Norris trophies of his own. 13 times he was voted a first team all star.

 

GERRYCHEEVERS: besides having one of the iconic masks of all time, the Hall of Famer went 229-101 for the Bruins and won a couple of cups. Went on to coach the team for 5 years, doing pretty well behind the bench.

 

PHIL ESPOSITO: 2nd all time in goals (459) in team history, 3rd all time in points with 1012. He was a first team all star for six consecutive seasons, he led the league in goals six times maxing out at 76, a record at the time. He led the league in scoring 5 times. 9 all star games, and 2 Hart trophies in his wonderful trophy case as well.

 

JOHN BUCYK: Stolen from the Wings he went on to run away with the teams record for goals in his career with 545 and is second all time in total points. He won a couple of Bings and was an important part of 2 cup winners. He was steady as could be, like punching a clock.

 

 Terry O'Reilly, Cam Neely Wayne Cashman and Chara do not even make the list. An extremely talented bunch.

 

WHO AM i? rugged winger important member of the Big Bad Bruins. Two time first team all star.

[radoran]

It's Ray Bourque by a mile

[yave1964]

It's Ray Bourque by a mile

This one annoyed me, in a few cases i am going to do the second best player in team history when it is clear that one player dominates the field such as a Gretzky or an Orr.

  Boston however has a 1 and a 1A in Bourque, i really should have done the 3rd best Bruin ever, even that is not watering down the talent pool, Espo, Cheevers and Bucyk would lead a lot of teams lists, and the guys who didnt make the list are damn solid as well.

[ruxpin]

Yeah, this is Ray Bourque in a walk.

 

It's interesting that HOFer Neely is not on this list.  He shouldn't be in the HOF, either.   It's a good list for #3, though. 

[radoran]

It's interesting that HOFer Neely is not on this list.

 

Honestly? Neely's among the most overrated players (and executives) in franchise history.

[ruxpin]

Honestly? Neely's among the most overrated players (and executives) in franchise history.

 

I agree.  That's why I commented that he shouldn't be in the HOF.   But it's interesting (in a "SEE!?!" kind of way) that a Hall of Famer is not on the "2nd best" list and is possibly even being omitted from the "3rd best" list.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Ray Bourque, and it is not even close.

 

To put it in perspective. Lidstrom is considered among the greatest of all time and he is fresh in people's minds. 7 Norris trophies, three 2nd place finishes, a 3rd place finish, 4th place finish, 5th place finish, three 6th place finishes and an 8th place finish.

 

17 years out of a 20 year career, he was in the Norris hunt.

 

Ray Bourque has 5 Norris trophies, six 2nd place finishes, four 3rd place finishes, four 4th place finishes, and three 7th place finishes

 

22 years out of a 22 year career, he was in the Norris hunt.

19 years out of 22 he was top 4 for the Norris. Including multiple years he missed 15-20 games and likely would have won if not for injuries.

 

That and Norris competition was a lot hotter in Bourque's day. Being standout offensively or in Langway's case, purely defensively tilted votes depending on the flavor the media threw at voting that year. They were sick of guys who were bad defensively winning because of numbers, so Langway got some throwbacks for being pure defense first. In today's world, that would be like Vlasic winning over Doughty.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, guys were voted for due to pure offense at times. Carlyle being the most visible, but Doug Wilson being another although he was very good, (comparable to Rob Blake). Bourque outclassed both defensively by a mile and was great offensively too. but the voting fluctuated too much back then depending on flavor of the media.

 

Coffey I left out because his offense was a different tier. Slightly inflated due to who he played with, and he was not exactly even average defensively. But he was still the 2nd best offensive Dman ever.

 

Also in the mix was quality of competition.

 

Bourque's early years saw still very strong, but over the hill versions of Potvin, Robinson and Salming, with guys in the running like Mark Howe, Doug Wilson and of course, Langway and Coffey. While his mid years had a strong crops of Dmen like Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Macinnis, Leetch.

 

Lidstrom's early years of winning, his competition were ancient old man versions of Bourque, Chelios and Macinnis. and Rob Blake + Pronger. The middle and later years saw interjections of guys in the running like Hatcher, Niedermayer, McCabe, Chara, Phaneuf, Jovonavski, Gonchar.

 

The consistency and hall of fame power in Bourque's era vs the flash in the pan nature of Lidstrom's era made Norris trophies and finishes worth a lot more in Bourque's era. Essentially, Bourque would have had 8-10 Norris trophies in the modern era in my point of view.

 

Compounded by Bourque leading his team in scoring 5 times while playing a strong safe defensively sound style with some explosive offensive bursts to boot. In an era when top players were routinely scoring 100+ points, it was common to see top bruins scorers with 70 points. If only the man had a team filled with Yzerman's, Fedorov's and competent defensive partners. Detroit's 2nd lines were often better than Bruins 1st lines.

[JackStraw]

@yave1964 - small picture is Ken Hodge?

[FD19372]

For me, this is a no-brainer. For as great as these guys were, Ray Bourque was one of if not the very best all-around defenseman in the league for almost all of his career. He was a human eraser on his side of the ice, a hard hitter everywhere he played, not just in that small Boston Garden rink, and had a cannon of a shot and could pass with the best of them. He was great in all situations: even strength, power play and the penalty kill. The only shame of it is that he didn't win the Cup as a Bruin. Yave, I think Roberto Loungo should be given some kind of honorable mention on this list.

[yave1964]

@yave1964 - small picture is Ken Hodge?

Ken Hodge, who the Bruins stole from Chicago in the Espo deal, and then when he was on his last legs traded to the Rangers for Middleton. Good job.

[yave1964]

@ruxpin@radoran

 

No way does Neely belong in the Hall, it is simply apppalling. Not only did he have a very short career for a HOFer but he was very good, not great in his best years. How he got in I will never know. He does not even make the top five Bruins and there are others who i would consider before Neely.

[ScottM]

I voted for Bourque, but unlike the others, I don't think it's a walk. I debated pretty strongly between him and Esposito. Esposito is one of the best pure goal scorers in the history of the game, and I think it's often forgotten just how badly he shattered the single-season goal-scoring record in 1970-71. Hull's record was 58, and Esposito broke it by a margin of over 30%. He was about 50% above teammate Johnny Bucyk for the goals title that year. He consistently won the goal-scoring title by huge margins for a period. He was the league's leader in goals six times in his career, but he was a more than capable playmaker, leading the league in assists three times as well, while winning five scoring titles. I think the fact that he played with Orr causes him to be overshadowed.

 

Anyway, on to Bourque. I rank him fourth all-time among defensemen, but the margins between him, Doug Harvey, and Nicklas Lidstrom are microscopic, and I can see a strong case for any of them in second place. Since I rank only Orr ahead of them, the air is really thin up there. To me, Bourque's style and level of play make him the most similar player to Orr I've ever seen. He excelled on both sides of the puck. Coffey had the offense, but he definitely didn't have the defense.

 

Close call to me, but I'll go with Bourque by a nose.

[radoran]

I voted for Bourque, but unlike the others, I don't think it's a walk. I debated pretty strongly between him and Esposito. Esposito is one of the best pure goal scorers in the history of the game, and I think it's often forgotten just how badly he shattered the single-season goal-scoring record in 1970-71. Hull's record was 58, and Esposito broke it by a margin of over 30%. He was about 50% above teammate Johnny Bucyk for the goals title that year. He consistently won the goal-scoring title by huge margins for a period. He was the league's leader in goals six times in his career, but he was a more than capable playmaker, leading the league in assists three times as well, while winning five scoring titles. I think the fact that he played with Orr causes him to be overshadowed.

 

I like Esposito fine as a player and would probably have him next after Bourque, but I still think Bourque is the clear cut choice.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I voted for Bourque, but unlike the others, I don't think it's a walk. I debated pretty strongly between him and Esposito. Esposito is one of the best pure goal scorers in the history of the game, and I think it's often forgotten just how badly he shattered the single-season goal-scoring record in 1970-71. Hull's record was 58, and Esposito broke it by a margin of over 30%. He was about 50% above teammate Johnny Bucyk for the goals title that year. He consistently won the goal-scoring title by huge margins for a period. He was the league's leader in goals six times in his career, but he was a more than capable playmaker, leading the league in assists three times as well, while winning five scoring titles. I think the fact that he played with Orr causes him to be overshadowed.

 

Anyway, on to Bourque. I rank him fourth all-time among defensemen, but the margins between him, Doug Harvey, and Nicklas Lidstrom are microscopic, and I can see a strong case for any of them in second place. Since I rank only Orr ahead of them, the air is really thin up there. To me, Bourque's style and level of play make him the most similar player to Orr I've ever seen. He excelled on both sides of the puck. Coffey had the offense, but he definitely didn't have the defense.

 

Close call to me, but I'll go with Bourque by a nose.

Well, it does not help that the second he was away from Orr, his numbers took a nosedive. Come to think of it, his numbers also shot up the moment he came to Boston, but my Dad insists it was due to how Chicago used him.

 

He scored 61 goals and 127 points in his last season with Boston and Orr. Then he scored 35 goals, 83 points and was -40 on his new team

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

Espo's book Thunder and Lightning specifically states that he was buried third on the depth chart in Chicago, with no real hope of moving up. Being dealt to Boston made his career complete.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

Espo's book Thunder and Lightning specifically states that he was buried third on the depth chart in Chicago, with no real hope of moving up. Being dealt to Boston made his career complete.

No idea personally. I just go by what my dad tells me for that age of hockey.

[ScottM]

Well, it does not help that the second he was away from Orr, his numbers took a nosedive. Come to think of it, his numbers also shot up the moment he came to Boston, but my Dad insists it was due to how Chicago used him.

 

He scored 61 goals and 127 points in his last season with Boston and Orr. Then he scored 35 goals, 83 points and was -40 on his new team

 

Yes, he definitely benefited from playing with Orr, but with two offensive talents like that, it cuts both ways. That aside, neither of those guys could have put up the kinds of numbers they did if they weren't tremendously gifted offensively. Plus, I think that there is some evidence that Esposito was outstanding on his own, since he led the league in assists (77) and points (126) in 1968-69 when Orr posted only 64 points. That's why I can't buy the "Esposito was only great because of Orr argument."

 

Admittedly, though, his plus/minus numbers baffle me. In Boston, he was often among the team's leaders in the stat. Is there an Orr factor? Sure, but that fact still suggests some level of defensive prowess, since Orr was only one of five guys skating around out there. You don't get a tremendous plus/minus rating from only one good teammate. You've got to be good, as do the other guys on the ice with you. It's as much a team stat as an individual one. But, yes, his minuses were atrocious in New York, often among the worst on the team. I can't figure out the difference, and honestly, I've given up on trying.

 

 

@J0e Th0rnton

Espo's book Thunder and Lightning specifically states that he was buried third on the depth chart in Chicago, with no real hope of moving up. Being dealt to Boston made his career complete.

 

Exactly. Sometimes a guy just has to be given a chance, and Chicago wasn't going to do it. Boston did, and they profited from it.

[BluPuk]

I'm going to say Esposito although Bourque was no slouch - and a few others.

 

Is the 'who am I' pic also Esposito?? 

[J0e Th0rnton]

When it comes down to it, in all the other posts of this nature, how long a guy played for a team usually impacted his standing.
 

Esposito 8 years vs Bourque 21

[JagerMeister]

When it comes down to it, in all the other posts of this nature, how long a guy played for a team usually impacted his standing.

 

Esposito 8 years vs Bourque 21

Well in a 21 year span, you have a player who wins 5 Norris trophies in contrast to an 8 year career bruin who garners 5 art ross trophies, 2 pearsons and a hart. Bourque only wins because of the ridiculous amount of 2nd place norris and hart finishes. Other than that, Esposito is indisputably the third best Bruin post expansion.

[JagerMeister]

This one annoyed me, in a few cases i am going to do the second best player in team history when it is clear that one player dominates the field such as a Gretzky or an Orr.

  Boston however has a 1 and a 1A in Bourque, i really should have done the 3rd best Bruin ever, even that is not watering down the talent pool, Espo, Cheevers and Bucyk would lead a lot of teams lists, and the guys who didnt make the list are damn solid as well.

While Esposito has a relatively weak argument, Eddie Shore is one who can compete with Bourque for 1A.

[yave1964]

@BluPuk

No it is Kenny Hodge, his former linemate in Chicago and in Boston.

[BluPuk]

Ah, thanks yave. What a great team that was!!

 

Even this Leafs fans enjoyed watching those Bruins play...

[jammer2]

  I guess I'm the only one to go Johnny Bucyk here. I have a ton of respect for Bourque, but I think Bucyk meant more to the Bruins. For sure, Johnny was a better leader than Bourque, although I believe some will question this theory. Johnny was one of the all time greats in my books. He never ever got the recognition he deserved. Well, he's getting some now from me.

[J0e Th0rnton]

  I guess I'm the only one to go Johnny Bucyk here. I have a ton of respect for Bourque, but I think Bucyk meant more to the Bruins. For sure, Johnny was a better leader than Bourque, although I believe some will question this theory. Johnny was one of the all time greats in my books. He never ever got the recognition he deserved. Well, he's getting some now from me.

I don't know Bucyk, but he did not appear to be a standout player by any means. Definitely has the career though. 22 years or so? But none of them did he appear to be the best at his position.

 

Bourque is the only one who who beats Lidstrom out in how many Elite years he had(By a comfortable margin) and he WAS the bruins for 20+ years, so I dunno.

 

Sell me on Bucyk