radoran Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 @radoran good post, I'm with you. I can't tie overall outcomes on one player, even a team captain, but the reality is the team needs its $8+mil of cap space to pull its weight, and giroux is definitely not doing that right now. and has had some serious consistency problems over the last few seasons. I am real tired of slow starts, uninspired play from the team and nothing but "rah rah" "No Doubt" from the locker room. I really do think some doubt at this point could be a Good Thing - like they really acknowledge they need to buckle down and change things and not just say that. One of the things I have liked about Simmonds this season is that he actually says that they should be playing better. He noted that against VAN and EDM they were in position to win if they played their best hockey in the third - which is when they should play their best hockey. I know it's a touchy thing - and that sometimes "calling out in the media" just creates huge divisions that cannot be papered over. But I think it can also reveal who "really wants it" and "who isn't pulling their weight." FWIW, I enjoy your repartee and find that we often have many points of agreement that are honed in our discussions. I know we both want the team to be successful. Post on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Aw. I think I would have liked to see that. It didn't work. I wanted to post the youtube video from Guardians of the Galaxy where the Nova Corps guy says he got a message from Quill that said he was an a-hole but not 100% a d*ck. But I couldn't get it to start the clip at the right place so you would have had to go through the whole thing. You get the idea though. You may be an a-hole but you are certainly not 100% a you-know-what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm not sure how that is going to help anything. There are already 6 guys on the roster 25 or younger. What does it accomplish to stock up on more kids that aren't ready to compete in the NHL? Are 22 year olds faster than 25 year olds? I think ready to compete in the NHL is a false over exaggeration by this team's management. We saw in training camps, and a few games last year what Gostisbehere and Morin can do. There is nothing wrong with on the job training, and frankly sometimes it is the best way to learn at an accelerated pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think ready to compete in the NHL is a false over exaggeration by this team's management. We saw in training camps, and a few games last year what Gostisbehere and Morin can do. There is nothing wrong with on the job training, and frankly sometimes it is the best way to learn at an accelerated pace. if it sells tix in Allentown keep them there! Am I right?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think ready to compete in the NHL is a false over exaggeration by this team's management.?I don't know how to argue that, because my mind is a little blown right now. If the concept of development is a red herring, then yeah, bring all the kids up. I think they'd get completely run over -physically, emotionally, and professionally- by the grown men who've been playing at this level for years/decades, but maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think they'd get completely run over -physically, emotionally, and professionally- by the grown men who've been playing at this level for years/decades Isn't that what is arguably happening right now to the current NHL club??? I mean they just run over by a bunch of kids in Edmonton the other night...so just saying...arguably...carry on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think they'd get completely run over -physically, emotionally, and professionally to be fair aziz... isn't that what is happening to our "vets" right now? Actually, the youngest kid (laughton) on the team outside of Neuvy is playing good hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Isn't that what is arguably happening right now to the current NHL club??? I mean they just run over by a bunch of kids in Edmonton the other night...so just saying...arguably...carry on... ****... you stole my thunder! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Oh and btw Chicago has 15pts to the Flyers 10pts. Chicago is also 8th in the western conference while the Flyers are 14th. Chicago has 10 players 25 and younger to the Flyers 6. And to take it one step farther the Flyers have only 3 players under 25 to Chicago's 8. Look, if I could get rid of VLC, Umburglar, Schultz, LSchenn and get a good return for Streit, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Doing that would allow for some of the AHL-level forwards (Cousins, Leier, etc.) to at least get a look at the NHL. I would have waived Manning a while ago and been able to bring up some players who they simply don't have cap space for without that move. That said, I just don't think there is anyone "down on the farm" that would change the course of this season, has evidenced themselves onto the NHL roster or would definitely benefit from being in the NHL rightnow. Laughton stepped up and effectively grabbed his place on the roster and they demoted "definitely an NHL player" Andrew MacDonald to make it happen. I expect you will see two if not three young defencemen next season - which has it's ups and downs - plus Gudas (who basically has a season and a half in the NHL at this point). Assuming they don't feel they "have to" play MacDud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 It doesn't matter. Bring up the kids. Don't bring up the kids. We're only going to trade them in about 20 minutes either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Seriously, though, you bring the kids up and where are you going to put them? How do they fit under the cap space? If anyone was going to take our garbage, you'd think that garbage would be gone by now. And to bring them up and waste eligibility on 8-10 min./game to "learn" .. I don't know. Keep them where they are. It's not like we have forward lines that are going to win with or without better defensemen right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 ****... you stole my thunder! LOL! SORRY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I posted this in the shoutbox, but I'll repeat here: Since January 13 of last season, Voracek has ONE even strength goal and 4 PP goals. In a total of 51 games. That projects to a total of 8 goals in an 82-game season Just take him off the top line at this point. I'm willing to allow that Giroux is playing with no wingers right now. Switch it up. And put Gagner with him for God's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Voracek has ONE even strength goal and 4 PP goals. In a total of 51 games. That projects to a total of 8 goals in an 82-game season Holy steaming crap! On the bright side, it makes my trading of Jake for Jonathan Bernier two years ago in my keeper league look less wretched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I am real tired of slow starts, uninspired play from the team and nothing but "rah rah" "No Doubt™" from the locker room. I really do think some doubt at this point could be a Good Thing - like they really acknowledge they need to buckle down and change things and not just say that. honestly, i have completely given up the idea that media statements from staff or players have any value or substance at all. i don't believe the things said in front of a microphone have any relation to what is said in the locker room or what is actually going through the players' heads. i don't listen to interviews, i don't read post game statements, i don't pay any attention to that kind of thing at all. as far as i'm concerned, it is all spin and crafted to be the thing the fans want to hear to maintain the strength of the brand. it sounds like they are even getting that part wrong, going with "we're close, just need to finish our chances," rather than, "we understand we aren't getting it done, and that needs to change," but neither case means anything to me. i hope everyone involved knows how bad things are, and i hope they know they are close to pushing the dedicated fans too far. heck, they lost me for the last half of last season. was tired of watching crap, and just stopped. i don't really count, of course, because i'm out of town and haven't seen a flyers game live in philly since i was 9 months old. they get the occasional $15 out of me for a new hat, but that's about it, so what do they care, but i have to think my situation isn't all that far from a lot of locals. i really doubt the locker room is "rah rah" once the doors close. these are professionals that are embarrassing themselves on a nightly basis. no one with a modicum of pride is just pretty ok with that. i have to think there is a rising level of panic among the players, even more with the GM whose finger prints are on this team more and more every day, and most of all with the very green and arguably unqualified coach. they aren't shrugging this situation off. they also aren't solving it. yet, anyway. so.... FWIW, I enjoy your repartee and find that we often have many points of agreement that are honed in our discussions. I know we both want the team to be successful. Post on! you know i will! at least, until they convince me they can't turn anything around and I go back to watching the voice with my wife. please, flyers, don't let it get to the point where that is the better choice for a given tuesday night. i appreciate the call out, though. i don't mean to get prickly. this team is so damn frustrating, though, i find myself having to weed through what is momentary crap that all teams go through and will get past eventually versus the full time crap that requires heavy construction machinery to fix. i tend to defend the areas i think just need patience, whereas i think there is a tendency among flyer fans to put all problems in the "bring in the backhoe" catagory....and i think i get a little too agro there. so, sorry for any perceived heatedness. just my fan-ness trying to find a spot of hope where it can. and it is becoming increasingly hard to do. last note, and one i've been thinking about a lot recently...people are talking about the current team problems having spanned three coaches. is it just me, or does this feel EXACTLY like things did when barber was around? matter of fact, i remember my perception of the team being essentially the same now as it was when i first joined the old Clarke Must Go board. is what we're seeing contained to giroux's tenure, or does this really go back to the late '90's? and if it does....wtf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Holy steaming crap! On the bright side, it makes my trading of Jake for Jonathan Bernier two years ago in my keeper league look less wretched. No...it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poconono Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I knew this post was coming soon from somebody. This is what's called growing pains. A new coach was never gonna come in and turn everything around on a dime. Look at Toronto!? lol. That's who scares me. They just might beat us out for Auston Matthews. Let's trade them Giroux and Voracek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 No...it doesn't. Nope, it doesn't. It just means crap went both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 It's not like we have forward lines that are going to win with or without better defensemen right now. Really? You don't think with better D-men the team would look quite a bit better? I sure do. They'd still be struggling as a team but mostly b/c of what Hakstol is trying to do not because the D consists mostly of 3rd pair guys in over their heads (or guys that are too old / slow and/or stupid). We're getting the saves, we've got guys who can score, guys who can set up and create plays. Isn't the weak link the back end? Add in a new HC and the result is a hot mess. I'm not saying there's no holes, of course the Flyers could use a few Rick Nash types and obviously Voracek and Simmonds are under-performing right now. But if you only changed the D you'd see a big difference on the ice right away. Let's not get too crazy over the forwards. Even-strength production will come around once the team is in-sync. Let's face it the team hasn't been in-sync, really "clicked" since Lavy. And even then it was a fragile kind of mesh. But I digress. Like I said before this year's Flyers should work on improving 2 things in a big way: special teams and FO%. For a bunch of reasons, not least of which is the prospects will have an easier transition if the special teams are working well - it takes some pressure off if you can rely on your PP / PK, same thing with winning more FOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 We're getting the saves, we've got guys who can score, guys who can set up and create plays. we are getting the saves, but we aren't getting the creating plays and scoring. on some level, the saves almost negate the poor defensive play. i mean, that's the point of a goalie, and they are doing their job well enough. but we aren't getting goals. i'm gonna take it off the secondary scoring, too. if the first line was scoring one goal in every game, as giroux and voracek are supposed to be capable of, i think everything changes. 4 of their 6 losses have either been by one goal, or by two goals with one being an empty net. if the 1st line produces one goal each game, those are ties at the end of regulation, at worst. at best, it swings the game from a claw-back situation to a press-the-advantage one, and there are different results. the team has problems all over the place, but the most concerning to me right now is the top line. while it isn't producing, the team is sunk. if it can start producing, i think the entire dynamic changes. i don't think it makes schultz into an allstar defensemen, but i think it gives the rest of the team room to identify and address issues while having a fair swing at every game they play. you could plug in a half dozen norris finalists on the blueline, but if the top line can't effectively possess the puck and control play, the team is still going to lose. if those two (plus whatever jobber gets stuck on LW) can pull their weight, it pulls a lot of weight off of everyone else. i think that is the key log that needs to be resolved before anything else. whatever that resolution turns out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Really? You don't think with better D-men the team would look quite a bit better? I sure do. They'd still be struggling as a team but mostly b/c of what Hakstol is trying to do not because the D consists mostly of 3rd pair guys in over their heads (or guys that are too old / slow and/or stupid). Well, that's slightly different than what I said. I said they're not going to win. I didn't say they wouldn't be better. But if, say, Morin and Ghost were brought up today, no the team would not be magically better. The forward lines are flatly terrible. And bringing up a couple of under-cooked fledglings is not going to change that. It's a moot point, though, since we don't have anywhere to put them.We're getting the saves (sorry, but with Mason at a .902 SV% we're just not getting a lot of them. In fact, he's at times been quite Bryzgalov), we've got guys who can score (well, then, get them out of the coat closet and put them on the ice! Because these guys that can score haven't been playing, to my knowledge) , guys who can set up and create plays (see previous smarm). . Isn't the weak link the back end? ("er." You forgot "er." WeakER link. Just because the forwards suck slightly less doesn't change the fact they suck). Add in a new HC and the result is a hot mess. I'm not saying there's no holes, of course the Flyers could use a few Rick Nash types and obviously Voracek and Simmonds are under-performing right now (define "right now." Voracek has 5 goals in 51 games. The Titanic is under water "right now."). But if you only changed the D you'd see a big difference on the ice right away. (You're really talking two defensemen at most and no one is putting them on top pairing minutes--pretending there's even room. No, we won't see that big of a difference right away. 4 other defenseman will still stink, Mason will still be suspect, and the forwards will still suck)Let's not get too crazy over the forwards. Even-strength production will come around once the team is in-sync. (I can't even come up with a hyperbolic analogy for that one. We haven't had even-strength production from this group in over a year. They were 25th in a 30 team league for even-strength goals last year. This is the same group. Exactly the same group except for Gagner. Ahead of only 4 teams clearly and deliberately attempting to tank and an offensively-challenged Devils team) Let's face it the team hasn't been in-sync, really "clicked" since Lavy. And even then it was a fragile kind of mesh. But I digress. (agreed on all counts there)Like I said before this year's Flyers should work on improving 2 things in a big way: special teams and FO%. For a bunch of reasons, not least of which is the prospects will have an easier transition if the special teams are working well - it takes some pressure off if you can rely on your PP / PK, same thing with winning more FOs. (I guess I'm willing to agree with this to an extent. These things would certainly help. But there is so much more wrong here. And you're not going to improve the power play with this group at this point. The PP is somewhere maybe Ghost could incrementally help, but not a lot if the forwards suck. )I keep saying the forwards suck. Individually, I could say nice things about specific players. Individually, with other linemates or on another team, there are some quality accessory players. But there's no player leadership and there's no one for them to lean on to score. As a group, they suck. It's just a cluster #### of decent ingredients that simply don't go together to make a successful result. And, again, two under-cooked fledglings are not going to appreciably change that. Not enough to warrant getting them to RFA status a year earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 we are getting the saves, but we aren't getting the creating plays and scoring. on some level, the saves almost negate the poor defensive play. i mean, that's the point of a goalie, and they are doing their job well enough. but we aren't getting goals. i'm gonna take it off the secondary scoring, too. if the first line was scoring one goal in every game, as giroux and voracek are supposed to be capable of, i think everything changes. 4 of their 6 losses have either been by one goal, or by two goals with one being an empty net. if the 1st line produces one goal each game, those are ties at the end of regulation, at worst. at best, it swings the game from a claw-back situation to a press-the-advantage one, and there are different results. the team has problems all over the place, but the most concerning to me right now is the top line. while it isn't producing, the team is sunk. if it can start producing, i think the entire dynamic changes. i don't think it makes schultz into an allstar defensemen, but i think it gives the rest of the team room to identify and address issues while having a fair swing at every game they play. you could plug in a half dozen norris finalists on the blueline, but if the top line can't effectively possess the puck and control play, the team is still going to lose. if those two (plus whatever jobber gets stuck on LW) can pull their weight, it pulls a lot of weight off of everyone else. i think that is the key log that needs to be resolved before anything else. whatever that resolution turns out to be. Good post. I'll buy all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingswede Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I feel sorry for all fans that thought Hakstol would change the team THIS year. Look, its not about this year. Look at Hextalls actions look at the unchanged rostet. There is nothing to do this season but ride it out. The Best thing that csn happen is that so many players as possible will be as good as possible during december so we can trade them to injured playoffs team in january. Im cynic maybe but not bitter. I understod this in the summer already. Our glory days will come with Hexy and hakstol but not this year. Not. A. Chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I keep saying the forwards suck. Individually, I could say nice things about specific players. Individually, with other linemates or on another team, there are some quality accessory players. But there's no player leadership and there's no one for them to lean on to score. As a group, they suck. It's just a cluster #### of decent ingredients that simply don't go together to make a successful result. And, again, two under-cooked fledglings...Speaking of cooking, maybe what we need is for someone to show these guys how to bake a cake?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Speaking of cooking, maybe what we need is for someone to show these guys how to bake a cake?!Sure, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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