trading deadline Hold, Fold or Raise?

[icehole]

41 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I think this is pretty fair.

I do think giving Medvedev a try and keeping Shultz around was a nod to being competitive. If things went great maybe they sneak into the tournament but they wouldn't be awful while "waiting out" the bad contracts .

I guess if they hold their own in the first round/maybe get to the second round without making any big moves, I'd consider that a big success.  I still feel like there would be a big difference between sneaking into playoffs this year as compared to when they snuck in in 2010.  I feel like that was a good team that underachieved up to that point but they found their game in the playoffs.

If they get in this year, I feel like they overachieved in a bad conference.  I felt like they could make a run in 2010 but I have no confidence in that this year.

[icehole]

17 minutes ago, briere48 said:

 

that's what im afraid of what's going to happen, is that hextall is going to be so fixated  on the younger guys and he's never going to trade them to make this team competitive, i mean i understand he's getting rid of vets to dump big salary but to just replace them with younger players for sake of it is a big mistake, this offseason if hextall doesnt add any vets not talking about overpaying, they could go backwards.

 

chicago is always trying to add vets and they are not afraid to do it because they know the young players could hit a big wall and not produce in the playoffs. that's why they are always competitive because they are not fixated on young players, they always try to add experience players.

I don't know where the notion comes from that young = good.  If you hit on anything past the 5th pick really, you've done well. So I don't understand why it's so important to hold onto picks and prospects that haven't proven anything yet.  Why wouldn't you want to give some of those up for something that is a sure thing?  They better start doing some of that next year or I consider them to be in the same category as the sixers.

[TedZep]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Even Giroux--with all his points--is more an assist guy than a game-breaker.

 

 

Well, that IS the nature of his position.  Of the top 50 scoring forwards this year, by my count only 5 centers have more goals than assists. 

 

Don't make me break out 'The Shift' vs. the Pens to remind you that CG can, in fact, take over a game.  (Most of all don't make me break it out because I'm at work supposed to be doing work like things.)

[AJgoal]

What should he have done in the offseason to make the team "good?" He had a defense that consisted of Schenn, Streit, MacDonald, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz under contract, plus Gudas as an RFA. The first four were Holmgren contracts. Right there are seven defensemen. He did trade Grossmann and brought back Gagner in the deal as a potential skill winger, and signed Medvedev as a puck moving guy. He signed Neuvirth, who's been huge as the backup goalie.

 

Should he have signed Sekera to the 5 year, 33 million dollar deal he got in Edmonton? Mike Green at 6 million/year? I just went back and looked at the free agent signings from the offseason and not a single one of the UFAs excites me. Saad is the only player traded that I found really interesting, but Columbus gave up quite a bit to land him - you'd have been looking at Laughton, B. Schenn, Leier, and Aube-Kubel plus a pick. And you'd have to give him a 6 million dollar contract.

 

The Capitals are doing very well right now. How did they get there?

 

First, they either missed the playoffs or got bounced early and easily for 7 consecutive seasons. Then they drafted the best pure goal scorer in a generation with the first overall pick. Let's see, Backstrom, Alzner, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Holtby, Johanssen, up until this year Green -  are all Capitals draft picks. Most of the best players on their team.

 

Chicago? Similar story (Kane. Toews. Seabrook. Hjalmarsson. Keith.). LA? Yup, pretty much. With the exception of Boston, most of the recent top teams have done it on the backs of their draft picks, with quality depth and roleplayers, maybe one really key guy picked up in free agency. These teams will be able to sustain success with the core they have by trading picks and prospects until the Kanes and Ovechkins and Doughtys begin to decline, then they will fall into a decline that will last until they dump those guys and start over. The Flyers have been in that slow decline since Lindros/Leclair/Desjardins tumbled off the peak. They slowed it a bit by picking up the extra first round pick in the Carter/Richards draft, but eventually trying to keep up and be "good" caught up with them. It will take time to be good again because the Flyers don't have the ability to just grab all the pieces they want. There's the reality of the cap and the difficulty in moving some of the current contracts to enable better players to fill roles on the team. You have to draft well and you have to play your draft picks because you simply cannot afford to buy your way into the playoffs anymore, either through free agency or trades for "sure things."

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, TedZep said:

 

Well, that IS the nature of his position.  Of the top 50 scoring forwards this year, by my count only 5 centers have more goals than assists. 

 

Don't make me break out 'The Shift' vs. the Pens to remind you that CG can, in fact, take over a game.  (Most of all don't make me break it out because I'm at work supposed to be doing work like things.)

TZ:  I am not putting him down...just reminding the Board of what was said about him on HNIC last Saturday...over the last five years he has outscored Stamkos and the dude from Pitt...but two thirds of his points are assists, high for such a high overall scorer, and we don't think of him as a guy who breaks things open. 

 

 

[King Knut]

On 2/27/2016 at 5:09 PM, Lunatic said:

The Flyers are in a very interesting position with the trading deadline this Monday. They are 1-3 points behind Pittsburgh, depending on the outcome of the Pens game today, and the Pens will have a game in hand. There is little doubt that they could use a first line left-winger. Would the addition of a top line left-winger push them into the playoffs and beyond? On the other hand, Streit is rested and rounding into shape, Gagne has  looked good recently,  and there are a number of Flyers, Medevdev, Schultz, Read and Raffl who might attract interest from playoff teams. Do they trade for draft choices, or other players? It is out of character for the Flyers to tank, but in reality it is unlikely that they will make the playoffs without a top line left-winger. And if they do make the playoffs, even with a top line left winger, they probably won’t advance past the first round. If you were Hextall, what would you do, hold, fold or raise?

 

It's not the best metaphor because you get the see what you're getting in return for a trade.

I hold unless someone offers him something stupid good for any of those guys you mentioned.  

 

The Streit question is a tough one.  I think if you can get a first for Coburn, you can get a first for Streit, but maybe not this year because a team might not want his salary for a whole nother year (he makes more than Coby did afterall)... but next year, the Flyers might be more in the market for keeping him as a "rental" player of their own.  It's a tough call.

 

If no one makes the offer, then I guess you just don't worry about it 

 

[murraycraven]

Ol' Hexy stays the course...

[icehole]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

What should he have done in the offseason to make the team "good?" He had a defense that consisted of Schenn, Streit, MacDonald, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz under contract, plus Gudas as an RFA. The first four were Holmgren contracts. Right there are seven defensemen. He did trade Grossmann and brought back Gagner in the deal as a potential skill winger, and signed Medvedev as a puck moving guy. He signed Neuvirth, who's been huge as the backup goalie.

 

Should he have signed Sekera to the 5 year, 33 million dollar deal he got in Edmonton? Mike Green at 6 million/year? I just went back and looked at the free agent signings from the offseason and not a single one of the UFAs excites me. Saad is the only player traded that I found really interesting, but Columbus gave up quite a bit to land him - you'd have been looking at Laughton, B. Schenn, Leier, and Aube-Kubel plus a pick. And you'd have to give him a 6 million dollar contract.

 

The Capitals are doing very well right now. How did they get there?

 

First, they either missed the playoffs or got bounced early and easily for 7 consecutive seasons. Then they drafted the best pure goal scorer in a generation with the first overall pick. Let's see, Backstrom, Alzner, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Holtby, Johanssen, up until this year Green -  are all Capitals draft picks. Most of the best players on their team.

 

Chicago? Similar story (Kane. Toews. Seabrook. Hjalmarsson. Keith.). LA? Yup, pretty much. With the exception of Boston, most of the recent top teams have done it on the backs of their draft picks, with quality depth and roleplayers, maybe one really key guy picked up in free agency. These teams will be able to sustain success with the core they have by trading picks and prospects until the Kanes and Ovechkins and Doughtys begin to decline, then they will fall into a decline that will last until they dump those guys and start over. The Flyers have been in that slow decline since Lindros/Leclair/Desjardins tumbled off the peak. They slowed it a bit by picking up the extra first round pick in the Carter/Richards draft, but eventually trying to keep up and be "good" caught up with them. It will take time to be good again because the Flyers don't have the ability to just grab all the pieces they want. There's the reality of the cap and the difficulty in moving some of the current contracts to enable better players to fill roles on the team. You have to draft well and you have to play your draft picks because you simply cannot afford to buy your way into the playoffs anymore, either through free agency or trades for "sure things."

Everything you say is true.  I'm not a GM though so I don't know what deals are to be made.  I make it much more simple though.  Flyers old way of doing things = exciting players, 100+ points, top 5 seed in the east, ECFs, Finals.  Hextal's new way = missing playoffs for maybe 2 straight years.

I completely understand that Hextal has only been at it for 2 years now, but I'm just referring to the state of the team now.  There's nothing you can do about moving some of the bad players, but isn't there something better out there than raffl, read, bellemare, vandevelde, white, and medvedev?

I have to wait and hope these prospects turn out to give us a good 10 year ride, but I'm just very disappointed in what this team is now.

[Poulin20]

Too bad, (unless we hear about some trade that was reported after hours) I was really hoping to hear that we unloaded some more dead wood!  I guess the other teams realized that they are just that, dead wood despite the Hexy mind trick...

[radoran]

40 minutes ago, icehole said:

Everything you say is true.  I'm not a GM though so I don't know what deals are to be made.  I make it much more simple though.  Flyers old way of doing things = exciting players, 100+ points, top 5 seed in the east, ECFs, Finals.  Hextal's new way = missing playoffs for maybe 2 straight years.

 

The last Flyer 100 point season was 11-12. It was the second straight 100 point season and they didn't get past the second round either time.

 

In fact those are the only two seasons of Holmgren's eight years in which the Flyers eclipsed the 100 point mark. Under Holmgren they finished better than third in the Division exactly once. The 09-10 Finals appearance they were an 8 seed that snuck into the playoffs on the last day of the season thanks to a shootout and they had 88 points. In the 07-08 run to the ECFs they finished 4th in the division.

 

After that 11-12 season Homer chased the dragon again with UFA offers to Suter and Parise and lost Carle and Jagr, coming away with zero. And he traded JVR for Luke Schenn.

 

The next season the Flyers missed the playoffs, coming in 4th in the Division. The next season they got into the playoffs and lost in the first round. Under Holmgren they got past the second round twice in eight years - as many times as they lost in the first round and/or missed the playoffs entirely.

 

Let's not pretend that under Holmgren the Flyers were an unstoppable juggernaut that was "always in contention" or even always "exciting to watch."

 

And if you're not finding Claude Giroux, Jakub Voracek, Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier to be "exciting" as members of your top six - you have no one other to blame than Paul Holmgren.

 

53 minutes ago, icehole said:

I completely understand that Hextal has only been at it for 2 years now, but I'm just referring to the state of the team now.  There's nothing you can do about moving some of the bad players, but isn't there something better out there than raffl, read, bellemare, vandevelde, white, and medvedev?

I have to wait and hope these prospects turn out to give us a good 10 year ride, but I'm just very disappointed in what this team is now.

 

You need affordable "bottom six" players to make it possible to pay your top six talent. It's just the way of the league these days. I don't really have a problem with any of those guys you mention and I think we'd be hard-pressed to find "bottom six" players who were undisputably "better" than them especially at the pay scale.

 

Hextall started off this season with a $4.25M healthy scratch signed by Holmgren; a $5M player signed by Holmgren buried in the AHL; had just dealt a $4.9M dead space contract and retained cash to send another Holmgren signing along with it.

 

That's $14 million in cap space coming into this season for three players who weren't playing and were signed by Holmgren. That's almost 1/5 of the cap(!)

 

And the team still has $4.55M in cap space devoted to Holmgren-signed players who are playing for other teams right now.

 

And let's not forget If the Flyers didn't have the compliance buyouts we would still be looking at Ilya Bryzgalov as the Flyers' starting goaltender - Or, at the very least, their highest paid goalie - for four more seasons after this one.

 

The "state of the team" is quite frankly still more than half Holmgren's fault.

 

And the Flyers are three points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand on one of the teams they are pursuing.

 

Honestly, I'm enjoying this edition of the Flyers more than I have in at least the past three years.

 

And I credit Hextall for that.

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

What should he have done in the offseason to make the team "good?" He had a defense that consisted of Schenn, Streit, MacDonald, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz under contract, plus Gudas as an RFA. The first four were Holmgren contracts. Right there are seven defensemen. He did trade Grossmann and brought back Gagner in the deal as a potential skill winger, and signed Medvedev as a puck moving guy. He signed Neuvirth, who's been huge as the backup goalie.

 

Should he have signed Sekera to the 5 year, 33 million dollar deal he got in Edmonton? Mike Green at 6 million/year? I just went back and looked at the free agent signings from the offseason and not a single one of the UFAs excites me. Saad is the only player traded that I found really interesting, but Columbus gave up quite a bit to land him - you'd have been looking at Laughton, B. Schenn, Leier, and Aube-Kubel plus a pick. And you'd have to give him a 6 million dollar contract.

 

The Capitals are doing very well right now. How did they get there?

 

First, they either missed the playoffs or got bounced early and easily for 7 consecutive seasons. Then they drafted the best pure goal scorer in a generation with the first overall pick. Let's see, Backstrom, Alzner, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Holtby, Johanssen, up until this year Green -  are all Capitals draft picks. Most of the best players on their team.

 

Chicago? Similar story (Kane. Toews. Seabrook. Hjalmarsson. Keith.). LA? Yup, pretty much. With the exception of Boston, most of the recent top teams have done it on the backs of their draft picks, with quality depth and roleplayers, maybe one really key guy picked up in free agency. These teams will be able to sustain success with the core they have by trading picks and prospects until the Kanes and Ovechkins and Doughtys begin to decline, then they will fall into a decline that will last until they dump those guys and start over. The Flyers have been in that slow decline since Lindros/Leclair/Desjardins tumbled off the peak. They slowed it a bit by picking up the extra first round pick in the Carter/Richards draft, but eventually trying to keep up and be "good" caught up with them. It will take time to be good again because the Flyers don't have the ability to just grab all the pieces they want. There's the reality of the cap and the difficulty in moving some of the current contracts to enable better players to fill roles on the team. You have to draft well and you have to play your draft picks because you simply cannot afford to buy your way into the playoffs anymore, either through free agency or trades for "sure things."

 

 

The Capitals picked up former Flyers.  Sorry couldn't help it.

 

The real question is what's Stamkos going to cost and how many years?

If you could get Stamkos, would it be worth giving up Schenn abd Gagner?  I think probably. 

Trade Schenn's rights, don't resign Medvedev, Don't resign Gagner... that's almost 9 million right there with almost 5 more in cap relief coming the following off season when Umberger retires.  It's not actually completely absurd but it seems like it should be.

 

In theory I hate the idea.  I hate G and Jake's contracts to be honest.  Adding a third monster contract seems insane... but there it is.  

 

Now sticking with reality and staying short of signing Stamkos  (and let's face it, no NHL team should have 3 $8 million plus players),  To get 'better' in the off season, I think it's more a matter of trimming dead weight to make lineup for Provo, Sanheim, Morin and Konecney.  They're not all as old as Ghost and they're not going to make the impact Ghost has, but I honestly believe at least Konecney and Provo are going to make it very hard to not keep them on the big club next year.  

 

UpFront:  Not that they're all bad, but Umberger and Read and Frankly Raffl need to be replaced with folks with a bit more skill and with better hands.

 

on D:  Not that they're all bad but Schultz, Manning and Medvedev aren't helping this team take steps.  See if you can get that scoring LW to play with Claude and Jake/Simmer, but with the assumption that it's probably not likely.

 

Stay away from Drouin IMHO.  If the guy literally decided he'd rather not report to the AHL team because he simply NEVER wanted to play under Cooper's system... the year after Cooper's system got his team to the cup final, then there's every reason on earth to assume he will not get along with Hakstol's system.  Unless it comes out that Cooper is molesting the young players in his office, there is probably no explanation good enough to excuse Drouin or make me think it'll work for him here.  Cooper's system is close to the platonic ideal in the new NHL.  If Stamkos can't handle it, maybe we don't want him either?   

 

 

[icehole]

13 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The last Flyer 100 point season was 11-12. It was the second straight 100 point season and they didn't get past the second round either time.

 

In fact those are the only two seasons of Holmgren's eight years in which the Flyers eclipsed the 100 point mark. Under Holmgren they finished better than third in the Division exactly once. The 09-10 Finals appearance they were an 8 seed that snuck into the playoffs on the last day of the season thanks to a shootout and they had 88 points. In the 07-08 run to the ECFs they finished 4th in the division.

 

After that 11-12 season Homer chased the dragon again with UFA offers to Suter and Parise and lost Carle and Jagr, coming away with zero. And he traded JVR for Luke Schenn.

 

The next season the Flyers missed the playoffs, coming in 4th in the Division. The next season they got into the playoffs and lost in the first round. Under Holmgren they got past the second round twice in eight years - as many times as they lost in the first round and/or missed the playoffs entirely.

 

Let's not pretend that under Holmgren the Flyers were an unstoppable juggernaut that was "always in contention" or even always "exciting to watch."

 

And if you're not finding Claude Giroux, Jakub Voracek, Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier to be "exciting" as members of your top six - you have no one other to blame than Paul Holmgren.

 

 

You need affordable "bottom six" players to make it possible to pay your top six talent. It's just the way of the league these days. I don't really have a problem with any of those guys you mention and I think we'd be hard-pressed to find "bottom six" players who were undisputably "better" than them especially at the pay scale.

 

Hextall started off this season with a $4.25M healthy scratch signed by Holmgren; a $5M player signed by Holmgren buried in the AHL; had just dealt a $4.9M dead space contract and retained cash to send another Holmgren signing along with it.

 

That's $14 million in cap space coming into this season for three players who weren't playing and were signed by Holmgren. That's almost 1/5 of the cap(!)

 

And the team still has $4.55M in cap space devoted to Holmgren-signed players who are playing for other teams right now.

 

And let's not forget If the Flyers didn't have the compliance buyouts we would still be looking at Ilya Bryzgalov as the Flyers' starting goaltender - Or, at the very least, their highest paid goalie - for four more seasons after this one.

 

The "state of the team" is quite frankly still more than half Holmgren's fault.

 

And the Flyers are three points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand on one of the teams they are pursuing.

 

Honestly, I'm enjoying this edition of the Flyers more than I have in at least the past three years.

 

And I credit Hextall for that.

The flyers weren't unstoppable but they were still much better than they are today.  They also played a brand of hockey that made 95% of flyers fans become flyers fans.  Let me ask, why did you become a flyers fan?  I wonder how the majority of flyers fans became fans but that's a completely different topic.

I really don't have a problem with the top six.  Couturier doesn't play my ideal style, but what he does is needed.  I don't agree that the bottom six is the best you can get for the money.  Every team has its duds but the flyers have too many.  If two or three of those players play slightly better, things could be different.

Bryz was a terrible mistake.  I don't know who exactly is to blame (I'm sure scouts were in Holmgren's ear) but how could they be so wrong.

The signing of Lecavier wasn't a mistake but the team mishandled the entire situation.  I blame berube first, then Vinny just lost motivation.

Macdonald was another bad deal but I have a feeling Hextal was a part of that. He was under Holmgren for a while at that point and everyone knew he was being groomed to take over.  He was hired as the GM a month later.

Hextal has made some good moves but what has he added to the 2-29-16 lineup that you like?  He's added some cap space (that he hasn't used yet) and some unknown prospects that haven't made the team yet.  Umberger, medvedev, gagner, and weal haven't panned out.

I think he's done a good job settling some bad situations, but he has to make some good situations by next season or I'll really be down on him.

If you like this brand of hockey more than the Holmgren days, we just must like different things.  I used to sit on the edge of my couch but now I find myself missing half of the third period due to sleeping.

[Podein25]

42 minutes ago, radoran said:

snuck into the playoffs on the last day of the season thanks to a shootout

 

The irony

[AJgoal]

51 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The last Flyer 100 point season was 11-12. It was the second straight 100 point season and they didn't get past the second round either time.

 

In fact those are the only two seasons of Holmgren's eight years in which the Flyers eclipsed the 100 point mark. Under Holmgren they finished better than third in the Division exactly once. The 09-10 Finals appearance they were an 8 seed that snuck into the playoffs on the last day of the season thanks to a shootout and they had 88 points. In the 07-08 run to the ECFs they finished 4th in the division.

 

After that 11-12 season Homer chased the dragon again with UFA offers to Suter and Parise and lost Carle and Jagr, coming away with zero. And he traded JVR for Luke Schenn.

 

The next season the Flyers missed the playoffs, coming in 4th in the Division. The next season they got into the playoffs and lost in the first round. Under Holmgren they got past the second round twice in eight years - as many times as they lost in the first round and/or missed the playoffs entirely.

 

Let's not pretend that under Holmgren the Flyers were an unstoppable juggernaut that was "always in contention" or even always "exciting to watch."

 

And if you're not finding Claude Giroux, Jakub Voracek, Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier to be "exciting" as members of your top six - you have no one other to blame than Paul Holmgren.

 

 

You need affordable "bottom six" players to make it possible to pay your top six talent. It's just the way of the league these days. I don't really have a problem with any of those guys you mention and I think we'd be hard-pressed to find "bottom six" players who were undisputably "better" than them especially at the pay scale.

 

Hextall started off this season with a $4.25M healthy scratch signed by Holmgren; a $5M player signed by Holmgren buried in the AHL; had just dealt a $4.9M dead space contract and retained cash to send another Holmgren signing along with it.

 

That's $14 million in cap space coming into this season for three players who weren't playing and were signed by Holmgren. That's almost 1/5 of the cap(!)

 

And the team still has $4.55M in cap space devoted to Holmgren-signed players who are playing for other teams right now.

 

And let's not forget If the Flyers didn't have the compliance buyouts we would still be looking at Ilya Bryzgalov as the Flyers' starting goaltender - Or, at the very least, their highest paid goalie - for four more seasons after this one.

 

The "state of the team" is quite frankly still more than half Holmgren's fault.

 

And the Flyers are three points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand on one of the teams they are pursuing.

 

Honestly, I'm enjoying this edition of the Flyers more than I have in at least the past three years.

 

And I credit Hextall for that.

All of this, too.

[radoran]

21 minutes ago, icehole said:

The flyers weren't unstoppable but they were still much better than they are today.  They also played a brand of hockey that made 95% of flyers fans become flyers fans.  Let me ask, why did you become a flyers fan?  I wonder how the majority of flyers fans became fans but that's a completely different topic.

I really don't have a problem with the top six.  Couturier doesn't play my ideal style, but what he does is needed.  I don't agree that the bottom six is the best you can get for the money.  Every team has its duds but the flyers have too many.  If two or three of those players play slightly better, things could be different.

Bryz was a terrible mistake.  I don't know who exactly is to blame (I'm sure scouts were in Holmgren's ear) but how could they be so wrong.

The signing of Lecavier wasn't a mistake but the team mishandled the entire situation.  I blame berube first, then Vinny just lost motivation.

Macdonald was another bad deal but I have a feeling Hextal was a part of that. He was under Holmgren for a while at that point and everyone knew he was being groomed to take over.  He was hired as the GM a month later.

Hextal has made some good moves but what has he added to the 2-29-16 lineup that you like?  He's added some cap space (that he hasn't used yet) and some unknown prospects that haven't made the team yet.  Umberger, medvedev, gagner, and weal haven't panned out.

I think he's done a good job settling some bad situations, but he has to make some good situations by next season or I'll really be down on him.

If you like this brand of hockey more than the Holmgren days, we just must like different things.  I used to sit on the edge of my couch but now I find myself missing half of the third period due to sleeping.

 

I've been a Flyer fan for over 30 years. I could try to argue 40, but I was living in Harrisburg as a 6- and 7-year-old in 74-75.

 

I think the Berube years were a disaster and I put that completely at the feet of Holmgren.

 

I blame Holmgren also for waiting until seven games into the season to can Laviolette.  And I don't even really think Laviolette was "the problem" in that situation. Laviolette came in to the "Richards/Crater" team, was then handed the "Pronger" team and finished up with the "Giroux" team. That's three completely different directions for a coach in five years.

 

I put that squarely on Holmgren.

 

And I blame Holmgren for teaching a generation of fans that they can chase the dragon and have a legitimate shot at the playoffs where "anything can happen."

 

That said, yes "anything can happen" - you can hit blackjack or 17-black or draw an inside straight. It is possible. It just doesn't happen very often. And, quite frankly, the Flyers got to the ECFs against the Pens, where they were severely outclassed. And they again were severely outclassed in the Final against the Blackhawks (leaky Leighton gave up the game winner in Game 6). Let's also remember that the team that went to the ECF was bounced in the first round the next year and the Finals team got bounced in the second round and then Homer tore the entire thing apart.

 

The bottom six could certainly be improved. Again, I don't think there was much more to be done given the money available and the "money available" was virtually all a result of Holmgren's inept management.

 

When you have a situation where a team has 20% of the cap applied to players who aren't playing it can be hard to make significant changes. I do think that this offseason will be the first one in which Hextall can actually make some moves and implement some vision - beyond bringing in a lifetime KHLer or needing to trade away salary. He'll have cap room and a good view of what's coming up the organization.

 

Gagner was acquired to get rid of Pronger. Without Holmgren signing Pronger (and the subsequent injury)  there's no need to make that move. Weal was acquired to get rid of VLC and LSchenn. Both of them were Holmgren signings and Homer gave up a #2 overall pick to get LSchenn. Umburglar was acquired to get two years of cap space off of Hartnell's deal that Holmgren signed. And, just for the record, I've thought that was a Bad Move from the first I heard of it.

 

All of those moves created cap space (which hasn't been used yet because the offseason starts in June) to allieviate the problem Holmgren created.

 

Of all of the players you mentioned, Medvedev is Hextall's entirely and that was in no small part because he had few options because of the cap mess Holmgren left.

 

I do find this team more interesting and more exciting than any since 11-12 - and that I put that era of woefulness squarely and entirely at the feet of Paul Holmgren. And the potential I see and the development that they have shown I see as attributable to Ron Hextall and patience instead of chasing the dragon to be "exciting."

 

If in two years the Flyers are still mucking around in the "eighth seed or the lottery" sweepstakes, then I think you'll have a better complaint (and I'll likely be right there with you). As it is, they're actually in a playoff chase and two of the teams they were competing with (Devils and Canes) just jettisoned big parts of their roster.

[icehole]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I've been a Flyer fan for over 30 years. I could try to argue 40, but I was living in Harrisburg as a 6- and 7-year-old in 74-75.

 

I think the Berube years were a disaster and I put that completely at the feet of Holmgren.

 

I blame Holmgren also for waiting until seven games into the season to can Laviolette.  And I don't even really think Laviolette was "the problem" in that situation. Laviolette came in to the "Richards/Crater" team, was then handed the "Pronger" team and finished up with the "Giroux" team. That's three completely different directions for a coach in five years.

 

I put that squarely on Holmgren.

 

And I blame Holmgren for teaching a generation of fans that they can chase the dragon and have a legitimate shot at the playoffs where "anything can happen."

 

That said, yes "anything can happen" - you can hit blackjack or 17-black or draw an inside straight. It is possible. It just doesn't happen very often. And, quite frankly, the Flyers got to the ECFs against the Pens, where they were severely outclassed. And they again were severely outclassed in the Final against the Blackhawks (leaky Leighton gave up the game winner in Game 6). Let's also remember that the team that went to the ECF was bounced in the first round the next year and the Finals team got bounced in the second round and then Homer tore the entire thing apart.

 

The bottom six could certainly be improved. Again, I don't think there was much more to be done given the money available and the "money available" was virtually all a result of Holmgren's inept management.

 

When you have a situation where a team has 20% of the cap applied to players who aren't playing it can be hard to make significant changes. I do think that this offseason will be the first one in which Hextall can actually make some moves and implement some vision - beyond bringing in a lifetime KHLer or needing to trade away salary. He'll have cap room and a good view of what's coming up the organization.

 

Gagner was acquired to get rid of Pronger. Without Holmgren signing Pronger (and the subsequent injury)  there's no need to make that move. Weal was acquired to get rid of VLC and LSchenn. Both of them were Holmgren signings and Homer gave up a #2 overall pick to get LSchenn. Umburglar was acquired to get two years of cap space off of Hartnell's deal that Holmgren signed. And, just for the record, I've thought that was a Bad Move from the first I heard of it.

 

All of those moves created cap space (which hasn't been used yet because the offseason starts in June) to allieviate the problem Holmgren created.

 

Of all of the players you mentioned, Medvedev is Hextall's entirely and that was in no small part because he had few options because of the cap mess Holmgren left.

 

I do find this team more interesting and more exciting than any since 11-12 - and that I put that era of woefulness squarely and entirely at the feet of Paul Holmgren. And the potential I see and the development that they have shown I see as attributable to Ron Hextall and patience instead of chasing the dragon to be "exciting."

 

If in two years the Flyers are still mucking around in the "eighth seed or the lottery" sweepstakes, then I think you'll have a better complaint (and I'll likely be right there with you). As it is, they're actually in a playoff chase and two of the teams they were competing with (Devils and Canes) just jettisoned big parts of their roster.

Maybe that's my problem...I like chasing the dragon.  Someone mentioned stamkos a few posts ago.  If this were the Holmgren days, the flyers would be right in the middle of the negotiations.  They might have to give up a provorov or a koneckney along with a Simmonds or a Schenn, but imagine the buzz about the team.  I'd be so excited to have 50 goal scorer on the team.  Imagine the first two lines with Giroux and Stamkos as the centers.  I think koneckney and provorov look like the real deal, but will they be stamkos?  I know Schenn and simmonds are no stamkos.

Instead, the flyers aren't in the game for stamkos or any other high profile players.  Our excitement will be for more maybes instead of difinites.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

The flyers weren't unstoppable but they were still much better than they are today.  They also played a brand of hockey that made 95% of flyers fans become flyers fans.  Let me ask, why did you become a flyers fan?  I wonder how the majority of flyers fans became fans but that's a completely different topic.

I really don't have a problem with the top six.  Couturier doesn't play my ideal style, but what he does is needed.  I don't agree that the bottom six is the best you can get for the money.  Every team has its duds but the flyers have too many.  If two or three of those players play slightly better, things could be different.

Bryz was a terrible mistake.  I don't know who exactly is to blame (I'm sure scouts were in Holmgren's ear) but how could they be so wrong.

The signing of Lecavier wasn't a mistake but the team mishandled the entire situation.  I blame berube first, then Vinny just lost motivation.

Macdonald was another bad deal but I have a feeling Hextal was a part of that. He was under Holmgren for a while at that point and everyone knew he was being groomed to take over.  He was hired as the GM a month later.

Hextal has made some good moves but what has he added to the 2-29-16 lineup that you like?  He's added some cap space (that he hasn't used yet) and some unknown prospects that haven't made the team yet.  Umberger, medvedev, gagner, and weal haven't panned out.

I think he's done a good job settling some bad situations, but he has to make some good situations by next season or I'll really be down on him.

If you like this brand of hockey more than the Holmgren days, we just must like different things.  I used to sit on the edge of my couch but now I find myself missing half of the third period due to sleeping.

 

Holmgren either shipped out or let walk the key pieces to whatever success the team had under him. 

 

The team never really recovered after Richards & Carter ( who were Clarke picks BTW) left.  We'll never know what could have happened with Pronger and they started to regroup and re identify with Jagr, but let him walk in favor of absolutely nothing. 

 

right now the dead weight is often distributed across the lineup. Because Hak love likes/has to fiddle.

 

They love them but Raff and Read are not good enough.  They don't have the skill. Skating and positioning are huge, but these two need better hands and that's too hard to learn. 

 

Belly & Whitey are good 4th liners for 15 years ago.  Not necessarily now.  They're good energy guys who succeed on guts and pure effort.  It'd be better if they were just more solid on position and execution. 

 

Umberger is a joke and GAgner is another one dimensional player good for a bygone era. 

 

Vandevelde is a minor leaguer. 

 

Give Laughton two or three more years as a pro and he could be the  kind of bottom 6 guy we need. Maybe Cousins too. 

 

TK, Provo, Sanheim seem special but only 1 a forward. 

 

Morin's stock has fallen, but they NEED his size and strength in their own end. 

 

Chicago just traded for Andrew Ladd, another team's captain, to help their bottom 6.  

 

Thats the kind of skill we're up against. 

 

 

 

 

 

[pilldoc]

@radoran

 

Outstanding posts that sums up the past and current state of the Flyers.  How do I add anything to those posts.. I can't.....  This organization has been assbackwards for years now.  Finally there is a plan in place and I believe Hexy has a vision in how to correctly develop this team.  No more quick fixes with over aged vets and no more hideous contracts with NMC/NTC.  It has been both fun and frustrating this year.  i get it.  Dire hard fans want this team to succeed, but it takes time.  It has been a joy watching Ghost mature before our eyes.  If Provorov and Konecny are can give a spark to this team like Ghost has, then this team will be fun to watch in 2-3 years.  Yes it sucks we have to wait, but that is the hand that was dealt to us by Homer.     

[radoran]

6 minutes ago, icehole said:

Maybe that's my problem...I like chasing the dragon.  Someone mentioned stamkos a few posts ago.  If this were the Holmgren days, the flyers would be right in the middle of the negotiations.  They might have to give up a provorov or a koneckney along with a Simmonds or a Schenn, but imagine the buzz about the team.  I'd be so excited to have 50 goal scorer on the team.  Imagine the first two lines with Giroux and Stamkos as the centers.  I think koneckney and provorov look like the real deal, but will they be stamkos?  I know Schenn and simmonds are no stamkos.

Instead, the flyers aren't in the game for stamkos or any other high profile players.  Our excitement will be for more maybes instead of difinites.

 

Negotiations or no, Stamkos didn't get moved.

 

Stamkos requires more than dealing players. He's going to require something along the lines of a max length $10+M contract. If you give up a Simmonds or a Schenn, you're then looking at a team with $27+M of a $71M cap tied up in three players. Tying up almost 40% of the cap in a handful of players is a Very Risky way to go about things these days.

 

And they don't have the benefit of a cap circumvention deal for Duncan Keith on the back end.

 

The problems this team is facing is from Holmgren trying to be "exciting". He "committed" the team to three different directions in five years. And that led directly to the mess the organization is in today.

 

The risk with the way Holmgren played it is that, failing to get Stamkos, he'd be just as likely to have gone out and dumped a ton to get an Eric Staal - a guy who's getting $9.5M to be a 20/50 player...

 

[Howie58]

My 2 cents:

 

1)  The 2004-05 strike ended an era.  I could argue we have never really made it into the New Era.  We are trying.  I think Hexy is trying very hard to break us out of the Mucker-Grinder Heritage.  He will need 3-5 years to dig out and rebuild.  Ghost's presence gives me hope--Pryor and his gang know their stuff.  

 

Folks...the stand pat today is good.  No dumb moves.  A willingness to accept the fact that most of our deadwood is unwanted. 

 

2017-18 is the year we need to show progress.  That's my hope.  I think '16-'17 is another transition. 

 

 

[King Knut]

15 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Negotiations or no, Stamkos didn't get moved.

 

Stamkos requires more than dealing players. He's going to require something along the lines of a max length $10+M contract. If you give up a Simmonds or a Schenn, you're then looking at a team with $27+M of a $71M cap tied up in three players. Tying up almost 40% of the cap in a handful of players is a Very Risky way to go about things these days.

 

And they don't have the benefit of a cap circumvention deal for Duncan Keith on the back end.

 

The problems this team is facing is from Holmgren trying to be "exciting". He "committed" the team to three different directions in five years. And that led directly to the mess the organization is in today.

 

The risk with the way Holmgren played it is that, failing to get Stamkos, he'd be just as likely to have gone out and dumped a ton to get an Eric Staal - a guy who's getting $9.5M to be a 20/50 player...

 

 

Is there a team in this league besides Phoenix that can afford to drop 10 million in cap room on a single player?

Frankly speaking, Stamkos isn't that good.  IMHO, NO ONE is.  for 10Million you'd better have a Gretzky putting up 92 goals every year.

 

I was flirting with options to get him for discussion points because some here are so obsessed with needing a sniper... which this team needs... but the reality is that acquiring him through trades or signings is going to be nearly impossible and I think (proven by the last 25 17 years of Flyers teams) and outdated philosophy.    As it happens I find two 8 million dollar contracts completely terrifying thanks to this team's history.  Luckily both players were fairly young when they signed those deals, but Jakes does still feel like a bit of an overshoot.

 

And from Stamkos' perspective... To collect that kind of salary is utterly handcuffing any team you would go to from being able to fill out a 'complete' lineup.

 

And what's Yzerman to do?  Trade his best player for picks at the deadline when they're tied for first in their division a year after going to the finals?  

 

 

 

[radoran]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Is there a team in this league besides Phoenix that can afford to drop 10 million in cap room on a single player?

 

Frankly speaking, Stamkos isn't that good.  IMHO, NO ONE is.  for 10Million you'd better have a Gretzky putting up 92 goals every year.

 

I was flirting with options to get him for discussion points because some here are so obsessed with needing a sniper... which this team needs... but the reality is that acquiring him through trades or signings is going to be nearly impossible and I think (proven by the last 25 17 years of Flyers teams) and outdated philosophy.    As it happens I find two 8 million dollar contracts completely terrifying thanks to this team's history.  Luckily both players were fairly young when they signed those deals, but Jakes does still feel like a bit of an overshoot.

 

And from Stamkos' perspective... To collect that kind of salary is utterly handcuffing any team you would go to from being able to fill out a 'complete' lineup.

 

And what's Yzerman to do?  Trade his best player for picks at the deadline when they're tied for first in their division a year after going to the finals?  

 

Chicago's got two of them. Ovechkin and Malkin are both at $9.5M.

 

This year seven players are getting $10+M in actual salary.

 

I agree I don't think any player is worth it. That doesn't mean that Stamkos isn't going to be looking for it nor that some damn fool won't give it to him.

 

Carolina, Buffalo, Arizona and Winnipeg are all slated to finish this season with $10+M in cap space and a lot of teams will have "the space" if they want to spend it that way... Tampa has $20+M at the moment, but only 14 players signed with 6 RFAs to sign as well.