Provorov

[flyercanuck]

3 minutes ago, icehole said:

He had a great game against the Hawks.  I didn't point that out as the play that defined his day.  His transition from facing backward and making that turn to skate forward the opposite way has been a little bit of a struggle on many occasions this year.  If we can put blame on Mason, Macdonald, couturier, read, umberger (for old time sake), vandevelde, schenn or anyone else, we can also point out when provorov is to blame.

 

But as I said earlier, I don't want to drain the excitement from everyone so I'll try to stay out of that conversation.  I wish I could be as optimistic as the rest...it would make my life a lot better.

 

Being thrust into #1 defenceman on an NHL team can't be easy let alone at 19. I have no issue blaming him or anyone else when they deserve it. He had a complete 180 degree turn around from his previous game against one of the leagues elite teams...and went from the goat to the hero.

 

It's very rare for any player to have a perfect game. If you focus solely on the negatives...that's what you're going to see.

 

 

[icehole]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Being thrust into #1 defenceman on an NHL team can't be easy let alone at 19. I have no issue blaming him or anyone else when they deserve it. He had a complete 180 degree turn around from his previous game against one of the leagues elite teams...and went from the goat to the hero.

 

It's very rare for any player to have a perfect game. If you focus solely on the negatives...that's what you're going to see.

 

 

You're right.  And one day when they are 20-5-2 or something ridiculous like that, I won't be focusing on any negatives.  They're on a nice run right now and people are already giving MacDonald praise...what's this world coming to!

[radoran]

10 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Being thrust into #1 defenceman on an NHL team can't be easy let alone at 19. I have no issue blaming him or anyone else when they deserve it. He had a complete 180 degree turn around from his previous game against one of the leagues elite teams...and went from the goat to the hero.

 

It's very rare for any player to have a perfect game. If you focus solely on the negatives...that's what you're going to see.

 

I do think Provorov is benefitting from flying a bit under the radar at this point, much like Ghost did last year. The challenge will be once the league focuses on him - much as they are on Ghost this year.

 

Not that Ghost isn't having a solid year ("on pace" for 12 goals, 41 points, .5 ppg), just that he's not had the same impact on the score sheet (17 goals, 46 points in 64, .71 ppg).

 

Putting up numbers early is one thing. Maintaining it is another. The "Tyler Myers" effect if you will. Dion Phaneuf. Jay Bouwmeester. All guys who put up large numbers early in their careers and leveled off as 25-30 point players long term.

 

Things look bright for ol' Provolone, and he's really impressive for 19. But there's a long road ahead of him. Luckily with players like Ghost and - eventually - Sanheim, he may not need to "do it all" which would be great for him and the team.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I do think Provorov is benefitting from flying a bit under the radar at this point, much like Ghost did last year. The challenge will be once the league focuses on him - much as they are on Ghost this year.

 

Not that Ghost isn't having a solid year ("on pace" for 12 goals, 41 points, .5 ppg), just that he's not had the same impact on the score sheet (17 goals, 46 points in 64, .71 ppg).

 

Putting up numbers early is one thing. Maintaining it is another. The "Tyler Myers" effect if you will. Dion Phaneuf. Jay Bouwmeester. All guys who put up large numbers early in their careers and leveled off as 25-30 point players long term.

 

Things look bright for ol' Provolone, and he's really impressive for 19. But there's a long road ahead of him. Luckily with players like Ghost and - eventually - Sanheim, he may not need to "do it all" which would be great for him and the team.

 

We are in agreement 100 110%. 

 

 One of my Leaf fan buddies was asking me what's wrong with Ghost. I told him he's playing on a mediocre team with a gawdawful defence...and after the year he had last year teams are keying on him...what's he supposed to be doing? Better yet, what's wrong with Morgan Rielly? Picked 5th overall and is barely keeping up with our undersized 3rd round pick.

 

Both players look pretty good to me. 

 

And both Ghost and Provorov are going to benefit from the not so distant future upgrade that is coming on the blueline.

[AJgoal]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

And both Ghost and Provorov are going to benefit from the not so distant future upgrade that is coming on the blueline.

 

The Flyers are signing Shattenkirk?

 

[brelic]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

He had a great game against the Hawks.  I didn't point that out as the play that defined his day.  His transition from facing backward and making that turn to skate forward the opposite way has been a little bit of a struggle on many occasions this year.  If we can put blame on Mason, Macdonald, couturier, read, umberger (for old time sake), vandevelde, schenn or anyone else, we can also point out when provorov is to blame.

 

But as I said earlier, I don't want to drain the excitement from everyone so I'll try to stay out of that conversation.  I wish I could be as optimistic as the rest...it would make my life a lot better.

 

You can be. Perspective is a choice

 

 

[Podein25]

4 hours ago, icehole said:

I don't want to ruin anyone's fun.

 

This is doubtful at best.

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I do think Provorov is benefitting from flying a bit under the radar at this point, much like Ghost did last year. The challenge will be once the league focuses on him - much as they are on Ghost this year.

 

Not that Ghost isn't having a solid year ("on pace" for 12 goals, 41 points, .5 ppg), just that he's not had the same impact on the score sheet (17 goals, 46 points in 64, .71 ppg).

 

Putting up numbers early is one thing. Maintaining it is another. The "Tyler Myers" effect if you will. Dion Phaneuf. Jay Bouwmeester. All guys who put up large numbers early in their careers and leveled off as 25-30 point players long term.

 

Things look bright for ol' Provolone, and he's really impressive for 19. But there's a long road ahead of him. Luckily with players like Ghost and - eventually - Sanheim, he may not need to "do it all" which would be great for him and the team.

 

 

I think we're missing the boat on Ghost with this view.  

The fancy stuff and the goal scoring from last year were fun and amazing, and I like to think that when push comes to shove (and he's got Hakstol's system under his belt a bit more and he's playing with a more defensively responsible partner) Ghost will once again be able to turn on those moments when the team needs a big lift.

 

BUT those moments aren't what will make Ghost great for this team.  In fact, as he gets better for the team, his stats are likely to drop off a bit, specifically because (I believe anyway) that his greatest asset for the team is his first pass, his puck carrying & control and his defensive zone exits.  

 

These don't necessarily result in a ton of points.  But it can result in offensive (and defensive stability).  But it takes some time.

 

There's NO denying that the Flyers offense has been incredibly more productive this year (and so far consistently so).  Their defense not so much, but it does look like it's calming things down a bit lately and that's partially due to Mason and partially due to the overall defensive play and transitional responsible play.

 

Long story short, it would be great if Ghost could be Paul Coffey and score 112 points for us, but in reality to consistently win games, it might be better if he (and eventually Provo and Sanheim) were just the three best first pass D men in the league with the potential to do great damage on the PP and with some fancy skating and skills displays when the team is in need of a hero.

 

That's my take.  I know it's more fun to have a guy that'll score a million points in a flashy way.  It was fun to watch.  I like winning and want to see a cup before I die .

 

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, icehole said:

He had a great game against the Hawks.  I didn't point that out as the play that defined his day.  His transition from facing backward and making that turn to skate forward the opposite way has been a little bit of a struggle on many occasions this year.  If we can put blame on Mason, Macdonald, couturier, read, umberger (for old time sake), vandevelde, schenn or anyone else, we can also point out when provorov is to blame.

 

But as I said earlier, I don't want to drain the excitement from everyone so I'll try to stay out of that conversation.  I wish I could be as optimistic as the rest...it would make my life a lot better.

 

These guys are young and frankly any criticism at this point is totally constructive.  

A few weeks back I caught flak for saying that he was thinking of the outlet a few times before he had solidly controlled the puck and it resulted in takeaways.  

I wasn't saying he stunk!  I was saying I hope he irons that out.  And he is!  That's the beauty of youth.  You can still get better.  And this is why I wanted him and Konex up with the Flyers this year because the need to be playing against the best in order to get their games to that next level.

 

It's not for everyone... but there are some players with enough of a natural gift and they have developed it enough that the only way they're going to get ready for the NHL is to play in the NHL.  

[icehole]

@King Knut

This should be a place where you can give your opinion of a player, but some people don't like it when they don't agree with your opinion.  I'm in the same boat as you.  I always get the "he's only 19!"  Yes, he is only 19 which means he is bound to make mistakes.  As a fan, I see those mistakes and want to discuss them.  I'm not saying he's a bust...nobody can say that at this point.  You can't say he's great either, because his game isn't as sharp as we hope it will be.  So let's through his flaws out on the table and see if he corrects them.

 

At the same time though, if it makes people happier to get juiced before it all pans out, I don't want to bring them down.

 

@brelic

It might be a choice, but the flyers brought me so low over the past few years that it takes me a while to look at the bright side of anything.  Things are starting to look up.

 

@Podein25

I was serious about that.

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, icehole said:

 His transition from facing backward and making that turn to skate forward the opposite way has been a little bit of a struggle on many occasions this year.

 

I'm sorry, but it hasn't.  It's something he actually does incredibly well.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

A few weeks back I caught flak for saying that he was thinking of the outlet a few times before he had solidly controlled the puck and it resulted in takeaways.  

 

This was accurate.

 

Icehole has also made some accurate points.  And he was right about Couturier when no one was willing to listen.  But--like me, by the way--he also points out some goofy stuff.  He seems to ignore incredibly impressive things.

 

But no one is supposed to disagree with him.  He's a good guy.  I'm not attacking him.  Just disagreeing whole-heartedly when it comes to Provorov's skating--which is quite fluid.    I forget who pointed out Provorov's strange thing of keeping his elbow high.  It is kind of goofy, but I guess it works for him.

[radoran]

38 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 One of my Leaf fan buddies was asking me what's wrong with Ghost. I told him he's playing on a mediocre team with a gawdawful defence...and after the year he had last year teams are keying on him...what's he supposed to be doing? Better yet, what's wrong with Morgan Rielly? Picked 5th overall and is barely keeping up with our undersized 3rd round pick.

 

Both players look pretty good to me.

 

Which is another thing - there's only one puck and only so much Top 6/Power Play time to go around.

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Long story short, it would be great if Ghost could be Paul Coffey and score 112 points for us, but in reality to consistently win games, it might be better if he (and eventually Provo and Sanheim) were just the three best first pass D men in the league with the potential to do great damage on the PP and with some fancy skating and skills displays when the team is in need of a hero.

 

Agreed with your post in general - I'm not saying we "need" Ghost to be putting up .71 ppg, just that he made that big splash last season  and has dropped back from a points perspective to around .5 ppg. That's still a 40-point defenseman which is the "20/50" guy of the blue line.

 

As noted above, there's only one puck and only so much time. And the league does tend to put focus on players who "break out" at a young age and not every one maintains their level of production. They're still good, solid, effective players. Again, Tyler Myers put up 48 and 37 in his first two years in the league and is basically a 25-30 point guy now. I don't expect Ghost to go in that direction, but players like Dion Phaneuf and Jay Bouwmeester have.

 

I think if we have the "three best first pass men" in the NHL then that's wonderful and marvelous. And nothing I said in the post you responded to should detract from that. Ghost is still the #21 scoring Dman in the league - tied for 10th in points if you look at all the guys who are tied in points. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/byposition?pos=D&conference=NHL&year=season_2016&qualified=1

 

I just don't think we should be projecting that we will have the next Karlsson, Burns and Subban all on the same team at the same time and there's nothing wrong with that. No team has three of those sorts of players on D (in large part because there's not enough opportunity to score). But if they are the next Roman Josi, Zach Werenski and Victor Hedman - YAY!

 

 

[AJgoal]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

But if they are the next Roman Josi, Zach Werenski and Victor Hedman - YAY!

 

 

 

Personally, I like that blueline more than the first option you stated.

[radoran]

Just now, AJgoal said:

 

Personally, I like that blueline more than the first option you stated.

 

So. Do. I.

 

[icehole]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm sorry, but it hasn't.  It's something he actually does incredibly well.

I don't have the ability to go back through the tapes (nor would I if I did), but I've noticed it probably once every two games on average.  Sometimes he's trying to keep the puck in the zone when he twists and falls, or in the Blackhawks game, there was a scrum on the wall, Kane (I think) came out of the scrum, provorov tried to turn to get position and he tripped, MDZ was caught in a 2 on 1, went down a little early, Kane saucered it to panarin for the goal.

 

I wouldn't even bring it up, but I hear that his skating is amazing and I haven't seen that yet.  He skates forward well and he can make some people miss, but it's just that quick transition I've seen him have trouble with.

[DaGreatGazoo]

FWIW...If every defenseman on the Flyers skated as poorly as Provorov, there would be FAR less bitching about Flyers defensemen on this board.  

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

FWIW...If every defenseman on the Flyers skated as poorly as Provorov, there would be FAR less bitching about Flyers defensemen on this board.  

 

Beautifully stated. Have you been drinking?

[ruxpin]

18 minutes ago, icehole said:

I hear that his skating is amazing and I haven't seen that yet

 

Honestly, it's this part that leaves some of us scratching our heads.  I promise I'm not insulting you with this (not attempting to, anyway), but I don't know how you (not "you,"--anyone) can see him skate and not see that his skating is amazing.  Because I'm honestly not basing it on scouting reports or anything.  I'm basing it on just looking at him skate.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Just now, Podein25 said:

 

Beautifully stated. Have you been drinking?

 

In the last 3 minutes....then no.  

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 I'm basing it on just looking at him skate.

 

Maybe the problem is that he's looking at Prov's feet? 

 

The key, of course (as everyone knows), is to look at the hips and, especially, the bum. That's where you really notice the smooth, silkiness of it all.

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Maybe the problem is that he's looking at Prov's feet? 

 

The key, of course (as everyone knows), is to look at the hips and, especially, the bum. That's where you really notice the smooth, silkiness of it all.

 

Cheeky monkey.

[icehole]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

Honestly, it's this part that leaves some of us scratching our heads.  I promise I'm not insulting you with this (not attempting to, anyway), but I don't know how you (not "you,"--anyone) can see him skate and not see that his skating is amazing.  Because I'm honestly not basing it on scouting reports or anything.  I'm basing it on just looking at him skate.

No problem.  That's why I back out of some discussions.  Maybe I'm just looking too far into it.  When people make a big deal of something I really pay attention to it.  If it doesn't blow me away, I wonder why everyone makes a big deal of it.

 

It was the same deal with couturier.  I kept on hearing about his juniors numbers, shut down skills, and his PK.  People calmed down on his offensive skills, but I don't even believe his other assets are anything special.

[DaGreatGazoo]

9 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

The key, of course (as everyone knows), is to look at the hips and, especially, the bum. That's where you really notice the smooth, silkiness of it all.

 

So, let me get this right...watching some skate is a lot like watching someone pole dance?  

[mojo1917]

My guess is this, @icehole  you see him fall occasionally, and think, how's that guy a great skater if he's falling when I watch ?  When I see him fall it's usually a result of contact, lot's of people fall as a result of that and there was that one time that he lost an edge and it led to a goal against.   What I see about his skating that is great is his first push is quick and powerful, his stride is smooth, like super smooth, he appears to be not working hard at all but watch him gain ground or skate away from other players trying to pursue him.  His feet are quick he's able to change direction quickly and he stays balanced.   He's one of the top 3 skaters on the team.