Carchidi Wants Blowup

[fanaticV3.0]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:25 PM, Howie58 said:

Sam Carchidi of the Inquirer just posted this.  He may have been reading us.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170219_Time_to_break_up_the_flawed_Flyers.html

 

The comments on Giroux are strong.  His drop-off can't be ignored.  It's hard to disagree with what's said. 

 

 

 

I don't want anything to do with them. I'm "over him" – as the kids say.

 

I don't have a problem with any of this,
 

Quote

 

At some point before the March 1 trade deadline, sell, sell, sell.

 

Try to get some draft picks for soon-to-be unrestricted free agents Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto, three defensemen who don't figure to be here next season. And attempt to get a team to throw in a backup goalie who can be exposed in the expansion draft, enabling the Flyers to protect Anthony Stolarz.

 

Deal one of the goalies. Michal Neuvirth and Steve Mason also will have the potential to become unrestricted free agents after the season, and playoff-bound Edmonton is shopping for a backup goalie. Neuvirth, who didn't help his value in Thursday's embarrassing 6-3 loss to the Oilers, or Mason could fill the bill.

 

Remember, Mason carried the Flyers into the playoffs last season, and Neuvirth, when healthy, is a gifted goalie. Both could help a team in the right situation.

 

Promote 6-foot-7, 225-pound defenseman Sam Morin from the Phantoms to start the rebuilding process early. Give the kid some NHL experience. Find out his weaknesses so he can work on correcting them in the summer.

 

 

though I'm not sure I would qualify it as a blowup. A blowup, to me, would mean trading away guys people actually want. Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto is not a blowup.

[murraycraven]

19 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

The only big money investment Hextall made was Voracek and I'll agree with you 100% on that. It was a signing Hextall didn't need to make at the time and if he waited, he could have had him for cheaper or he could have moved him for a far superior package. Giroux wasn't his signing, so his hands are tied there.

 

In terms of a top tier forward, I really think Rubtsov is that guy, along with Konecny. Lindblom is certainly looking like a top tier forward and Allison has been the best freshman power forward in the NCAA this year. I think people are looking for 'sexy' with regards to a top tier and Hextall is looking for a complete package. I look at Rubtsov and I see Anze Kopitar. I look at Konecny and I see a young Mark Recchi. I look at Lindblom and I see a Gabriel Landeskog type of forward. I look at Mikhail Vorobyov and I see a potentially elite checking centerman with Selke upside.

 

Hextall is building a quietly spectacular forward group to match the defense. Next season, we'll see Lindblom make the jump to North America and play in a top six role (he could be that elusive left winger that Giroux needs). Vorobyov is going to be in Lehigh Valley along with two other prized prospects - Phillipe Myers and Mark Friedman (there's word that he's going to sign an ATO after his season at Bowling Green and then sign the standard 3 year entry level deal with the Flyers). We're probably going to see a goaltender from Europe join the ranks (Sandstrom might be on his way over as well).

 

It's going to be an act of patience with regards to the prospects. We're slowly seeing Hextall's plan unfold. Last season, it was Gostisbehere who joined the ranks. This season, it was Provorov and Konecny. Next season, I expect that Morin, Sanheim and Hagg all make the jump on the defense and Leier and Laughton should make the jump to the forward ranks. The season after that, we'll see more veterans on the way out and more youth on the way. Aube-Kubel should be ready by then and so should Rubtsov and Allison. This is a great time for the Flyers and prospects. The biggest issue is trying to weed out the veterans who don't belong, but have long term deals that nobody wants to touch.

 

 

Agree with everything but I also think you might be overvaluing some of these forwards.   I dont see any "elite" players out of the crew you mentioned.   I see a few guys that could be good 2nd/3rd line players...   I generally don't like comparisons b/c each player is different.   If TK became a Recchi type player that would be incredible but not every prospect is going to turn into a NHL star.   

[murraycraven]

8 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

though I'm not sure I would qualify it as a blowup. A blowup, to me, would mean trading away guys people actually want. Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto is not a blowup.

 

The sad part is what Teams are calling for our supposedly "good" players?   I mean, really, the only person I would be asking for is Prov, Simmonds one the prospects....   

 

Agree on the definition of a blowup as well.   

[fanaticV3.0]

2 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

The sad part is what Teams are calling for our players?   I mean, really, the only person I would be asking for is Prov, Simmonds one the prospects....   

 

Yeah, but we don't want them to do that.

 

I would literally take anything somewhat offered us if it meant getting Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto  off the roster.

[murraycraven]

22 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Yeah, but we don't want them to do that.

 

I would literally take anything somewhat offered us if it meant getting Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto  off the roster.

 

me too!

[icehole]

On 2/19/2017 at 3:33 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

Provorov and Konecny made the team because they were ready. It's not an age thing, it's when you are NHL ready. Some players are ready at 18. Some at 20. Some at 25. Tim Thomas (you know, Conn Smythe Tim Thomas) was around 30 when he finally made the NHL. You would have considered him a bust well over a decade before that. 

 

Do you seriously think Travis Konecny is done developing, and will only be a 3rd liner? Do you really think this is as good as Provorov is ever going to get ? 

 

 

 If you really think Holmgrens way was so good, why on earth did Hextall have to spend his first 3 years just trying to get rid of his horrible contracts and trying to rebuild a farm system that Homer had left in shambles?

 

 I'm pretty sure if Hextall wanted to trade away Provorov and Konecny and Rubtsov and Lindblom and Laberge and Sanheim and Morin and Myers and our next 5 years worth of draft picks he could have a better team right now that could go a round or two in the playoffs...maybe even lose in the finals if all the planets aligned that year.

 

 Of course he doesn't have the luxury of penalty-free buyouts to get out from under those Bryz-zaster type contracts though. We're STILL trying to get out from Mcduds. 

 

 

 Provorov is what hextall is trying to do in philly....have young players coming up on cheap contracts who can make a difference on a team...instead of buying washed up free agents (the Homer route) If you'd have a bit of patience maybe you'd see the results of drafting and developing, as opposed to throwing money and picks out the window and hoping something sticks. Just because Hextall doesn't bring all his draft picks into the NHL, and watch them be demoralized and lose all confidence, doesn't mean they'll never make it.

 

 

 

 The team is in shambles...just like when Homer was running it. The difference is Hextall has an excellent group of prospects in the pipeline, and even his "bad' signings are nowhere near as horrible as some of Holmgrens were. 

I'm not saying TK is done developing.  I'm just saying that this year his level of play wasn't top 6 level.  I assume he made the team at the age of 19, being 5'-nothing 150lbs because he was the best option.  So a 19 year old small guy that is playing like a bottom 6 guy is a better option than guys we've been hearing about for a few years now.  Either they thought more of Koneckny than what he is, or the other guys aren't even bottom 6 players yet.

 

Some people get the wrong idea about me.  I like gaining prospects.  I also don't like overpaying big named free agents.  I do like winning and watching exciting hockey too though.  I know Holmgren made bad deals and so did hextall...this isn't about who made the worse deals.

 

 Holmgren's deals paid off early, or at least had potential to pay off early.  He got in trouble because of the length of contracts but rarely because the talent wasn't there.

 

Hextall is just making bad deals that aren't paying off at all.  When we talk about the hole he had to dig out of, what did he do exactly?  I know he got rid of some bad contracts, but does that mean that the flyers are now way under the cap?  They're still right up against it because he took that money from bad contracts and just put it right back into more bad contracts.

 

So Holmgren would essentially overpay for decent players while hextall is over paying for bad players.  He's made a few moves to grab some players in the draft, but so far that's turned into a good rookie defenseman and a bottom 6 forward.  Until the prospects make any sort of impact, I can't give hextall any credit for acquiring them.

 

If you have a chance, I'd like to know what type of careers players who enter the NHL at 22 or older compared to ones that start below the age off 22.  I would bet the ones under 22 had better careers because they were good enough at a young age, and they didn't have to develope.  Of those players that were successful by coming into the NHL late, I would bet most had better NHL players that blocked them from joining their NHL team.  I highly doubt there were many star players stashed away in the AHL at 22 years old because they just needed a little more development, while the NHL team struggled with bad players.

 

That's why I say if the flyers can lose Macdonald, streit, Schultz, MDZ, raffl, Read, couturier, Bellemare, lyubimov, and Vandevelde, they can replace them with these players that are supposed to be better.  Ask yourself if player "x" is better than Macdonald.  If yes, shouldn't he be on the team?  Is player "y" better than read?  Is so, shouldn't he be on the team?  If player "x" and player "y" are not better than Macdonald and read, hextall has failed and he has big problems.

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, icehole said:

I'm not saying TK is done developing.  I'm just saying that this year his level of play wasn't top 6 level.  I assume he made the team at the age of 19, being 5'-nothing 150lbs because he was the best option.  So a 19 year old small guy that is playing like a bottom 6 guy is a better option than guys we've been hearing about for a few years now.  Either they thought more of Koneckny than what he is, or the other guys aren't even bottom 6 players yet.

 

The guys we've been hearing about for a few years are defencemen, not forwards. The forward prospects pool was basically non-existent...because Holmgren traded away a lot of 1st rounders and basically every 2nd he ever had. Hextall has drafted a lot of defence. But he still managed to grab a guy like Konecny because he was smart and was a deadline seller...where gms overpay. Homer was always a buyer. He'd rather have 20 games from some 34 year old has been than a career of a guy like Konecny...who's already better.

 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

Some people get the wrong idea about me.  I like gaining prospects.  I also don't like overpaying big named free agents.  I do like winning and watching exciting hockey too though.  I know Holmgren made bad deals and so did hextall...this isn't about who made the worse deals.

 

 Everyone on here wants exciting hockey.  

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

 Holmgren's deals paid off early, or at least had potential to pay off early.  He got in trouble because of the length of contracts but rarely because the talent wasn't there.

 

 Really? Bryz and Vinnie say hello. 

 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

Hextall is just making bad deals that aren't paying off at all.  When we talk about the hole he had to dig out of, what did he do exactly?  I know he got rid of some bad contracts, but does that mean that the flyers are now way under the cap?  They're still right up against it because he took that money from bad contracts and just put it right back into more bad contracts.

 

 Hextall overpaid Voracek. It was his first year as a gm. At least Voracek is a good player who isn't over the hill. Weisse doesn't look like a great signing after 47 games. Maybe he rebounds next year, maybe he doesn't. His contract will run out the same time Bryzgalovs would have. Or McDuds will. Could you imagine if we still had that clown in net?

 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

So Holmgren would essentially overpay for decent players while hextall is over paying for bad players.  He's made a few moves to grab some players in the draft, but so far that's turned into a good rookie defenseman and a bottom 6 forward.  Until the prospects make any sort of impact, I can't give hextall any credit for acquiring them.

 

  The only bad player Hextall has overpaid really is Weise. If you don't think it's important to have young, cheap up and coming talent in a capped league I don't know what to say to you. The Hawks stay competitive because they keep dealing the vets who aren't their nucleus who want to get paid for picks and prospects. 

 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

If you have a chance, I'd like to know what type of careers players who enter the NHL at 22 or older compared to ones that start below the age off 22.  I would bet the ones under 22 had better careers because they were good enough at a young age, and they didn't have to develope.  Of those players that were successful by coming into the NHL late, I would bet most had better NHL players that blocked them from joining their NHL team.  I highly doubt there were many star players stashed away in the AHL at 22 years old because they just needed a little more development, while the NHL team struggled with bad players.

 

 I would think most players who are good enough to make the NHL before 22 would be high quality high pick players. Without looking it up I'd think most would be top ten picks.

 

 Of course you never get those when you deal your picks away for vets who are good enough to get you into the playoffs, but never good enough to win a cup. I've said before to the "a playoff round is more valuable to the development of the team" crowd one word...Provorov.  Anyone who thinks a playoff round is better for the Flyers than acquiring a career of a player like him needs to get out of the "Homer School of Hockey".

 

And how about we actually let Hextalls picks develop long enough to make the NHL before knocking them. He doesn't even HAVE a 22 year old draft pick yet. 

 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

 

That's why I say if the flyers can lose Macdonald, streit, Schultz, MDZ, raffl, Read, couturier, Bellemare, lyubimov, and Vandevelde, they can replace them with these players that are supposed to be better.  Ask yourself if player "x" is better than Macdonald.  If yes, shouldn't he be on the team?  Is player "y" better than read?  Is so, shouldn't he be on the team?  If player "x" and player "y" are not better than Macdonald and read, hextall has failed and he has big problems.

 

 Unfortunately we have to wait until guys like McDud and Streit and Reads Homer signed contracts run out before we can get rid of them.

 

 The other part you're clearly not getting is different prospects develop at different rates. Some need to play junior, then AHL, then NHL. They need to take it one step at a time and learn how to play against bigger faster stronger more talented players. That's how MOST NHLers are made. Few jump in as 18 year olds, and most of them are top 3-5 picks. Throw your typical 18 year old draft pick into the NHL and his confidence would be ruined. See Luca Sbisa. And thank Homer for his lack of patience.

 

 You seem to think Hextalls drafting is terrible...he's already drafted a better NHL player than Holmgren did his entire tenure as Flyer gm. And most of his draft picks aren't even 20 yet.

[icehole]

8 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

The guys we've been hearing about for a few years are defencemen, not forwards. The forward prospects pool was basically non-existent...because Holmgren traded away a lot of 1st rounders and basically every 2nd he ever had. Hextall has drafted a lot of defence. But he still managed to grab a guy like Konecny because he was smart and was a deadline seller...where gms overpay. Homer was always a buyer. He'd rather have 20 games from some 34 year old has been than a career of a guy like Konecny...who's already better.

 

 

 Everyone on here wants exciting hockey.  

 

 Really? Bryz and Vinnie say hello. 

 

 

 Hextall overpaid Voracek. It was his first year as a gm. At least Voracek is a good player who isn't over the hill. Weisse doesn't look like a great signing after 47 games. Maybe he rebounds next year, maybe he doesn't. His contract will run out the same time Bryzgalovs would have. Or McDuds will. Could you imagine if we still had that clown in net?

 

 

  The only bad player Hextall has overpaid really is Weise. If you don't think it's important to have young, cheap up and coming talent in a capped league I don't know what to say to you. The Hawks stay competitive because they keep dealing the vets who aren't their nucleus who want to get paid for picks and prospects. 

 

 

 I would think most players who are good enough to make the NHL before 22 would be high quality high pick players. Without looking it up I'd think most would be top ten picks.

 

 Of course you never get those when you deal your picks away for vets who are good enough to get you into the playoffs, but never good enough to win a cup. I've said before to the "a playoff round is more valuable to the development of the team" crowd one word...Provorov.  Anyone who thinks a playoff round is better for the Flyers than acquiring a career of a player like him needs to get out of the "Homer School of Hockey".

 

And how about we actually let Hextalls picks develop long enough to make the NHL before knocking them. He doesn't even HAVE a 22 year old draft pick yet. 

 

 

 Unfortunately we have to wait until guys like McDud and Streit and Reads Homer signed contracts run out before we can get rid of them.

 

 The other part you're clearly not getting is different prospects develop at different rates. Some need to play junior, then AHL, then NHL. They need to take it one step at a time and learn how to play against bigger faster stronger more talented players. That's how MOST NHLers are made. Few jump in as 18 year olds, and most of them are top 3-5 picks. Throw your typical 18 year old draft pick into the NHL and his confidence would be ruined. See Luca Sbisa. And thank Homer for his lack of patience.

 

 You seem to think Hextalls drafting is terrible...he's already drafted a better NHL player than Holmgren did his entire tenure as Flyer gm. And most of his draft picks aren't even 20 yet.

That's part of my beef with hextall...he hasn't put any effort into drafting any forwards.  Defense is important, but how many teams can win with just defense?  Also, how many teams play exciting hockey with just defense?  I don't like going defense defense defense in the first round.  I like the konekny pick but I'm looking for something bigger and faster.  So I hope those defenseman turn out to be good players, because we're missing out on some offense to aquire them.

 

You can point out Bryz and Vinny, but try to think about the positive deals Homer made.  His deals made the team exciting and they were a top 1/3 team for a while.  I'd take forsberg on one skate over the slop hextall puts out there every night.  I know that wasn't a Homer deal but I'm not just talking about Homer...I'm talking about the old "flyers way" that I think is overly criticized.  It wasn't all Bryz and Vinny deals.

 

I still believe MacDonald was a hextall deal.  You can believe that or not, but that's what I believe in my heart.

 

I do like having cheap, young talent.  Do the flyers have that...did I miss that acquisition?  The Blackhawks are doing it right.  They have an eye for talent that I'm not so sure Hextall has.  They rented weise because of what he did with Montreal.  Once they realized weise couldn't play, they didn't attempt to keep him.  That's when Hexy said "I'll pay him $2.5m/4years for what he did two teams ago.  He was invisible in Chicago but I don't care."

 

You're probably right.  Players who make the NHL before 22 are probably good enough to go before #10.  The flyers got there and picked a defenseman.  He looks good but I don't think he will be a game changer like a forward could be.  Homer's biggest mistake may have been picking a responsible, defensive forward at #8.  The flyers prospects approaching 22 probably aren't top 10 talent and that's why they haven't made the team yet.  And unfortunately, it doesn't look like hextall's plan will get them picking top 10 anytime soon (unless he can deal his way into the top 10).

 

I don't believe much in development leagues anymore.  Back in the day, it was important to grow into being a "man" before you went into the NHL.  It was a slower and tougher league with monster goons.  Now, big, tough older men is the anomaly.  Most of the league is small, fast kids under 25.  The rules cater to small speed and skill players.  You can work on speed and skill in a development league, but you basically are what you are by 18, 19, or 20.  If development is so important to hextall and he won't rush prospects, why is konekny on the team?  He is the definition of an underdeveloped player.  He's a small kid with an immaturity to him.  Provorov is very skilled but there's an immaturity to his game too.  Yet Provorov is the NHL Flyers best defenseman and TK is probably better than anyone they play in the bottom 6.  I think this is not true of the other prospects because they probably aren't very good.  Let's hope I'm wrong.

 

I think this all started when I said all prospects that are part of hextall's plan should make the team next year.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we lose some of these bad contracts at the end of this season?  Shouldn't that open up spots for these kids to make the team?  If you could lose raffl, read, lyubimov, vandevelde, bellemare, streit, MDZ, and shultz, would you replace them with the hextall's prospects, would you trust hextall to sign FAs to replace those players, or would you rather keep some of those players?

 

 

[King Knut]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:25 PM, Howie58 said:

Sam Carchidi of the Inquirer just posted this.  He may have been reading us.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170219_Time_to_break_up_the_flawed_Flyers.html

 

The comments on Giroux are strong.  His drop-off can't be ignored.  It's hard to disagree with what's said. 

 

 

 

Well I was in favor of trading Giroux before, but I can't allow myself to agree with Sammy C., so I guess I'm all in on G.

 

Joking aside, I don't think a blow up is necessary.  I think they need ONE solid Defense first D man.  A LW to play with Giroux wouldn't hurt anything either.  I genuinely think that's MOST of what's wrong.

 

I don't know what's wrong with Giroux.  That's a big factor.  He's not himself.  Something's definitely wrong.  I've read theories that the surgery from the off season takes a LONG time to fully heal.  Other players have said a full year or more from when they had it, that they hadn't even realized how much it was hindering them until the 2nd season after their recovery.

 

I don't put much stock in the year to year.  It's been 5 years since he played with Jagr and he's had 3 coaches in that time and he's lost his strongest assets on either side of him.  

 

I think Hextall's #1 Priority for this team between now and the start of next season is a veteran (who's still got some life in him) stay at home in his own end D man.

 

I'd love to see a scoring winger, but so would the entire league.

 

I'd also love to see a Justin Williams type to play on the 2nd or third line (instead of Weise) and instill some sense of "this is how to win, we must win now at all costs" competitiveness (aka be a leader).  

 

But the question of what's wrong with G now really needs to be answered.  The entire team sucks 5 on 5 right now, and you can blame Hakstol or you can blame the D (I blame both to a degree, but the D more lately).  But the fact is Giroux hasn't even been good on the PP lately and Simmer and Schenn have both kept those numbers up.  Something's off with Giroux.  What is it?  We need answers to get better.

[AJgoal]

28 minutes ago, icehole said:

That's part of my beef with hextall...he hasn't put any effort into drafting any forwards.  Defense is important, but how many teams can win with just defense?  Also, how many teams play exciting hockey with just defense?  I don't like going defense defense defense in the first round.  I like the konekny pick but I'm looking for something bigger and faster.  So I hope those defenseman turn out to be good players, because we're missing out on some offense to aquire them.

 

Here's a list of forwards drafted after Sanheim in 2014 or Provorov in 2015 who have played more than 10 NHL games:

 

2014:

Nick Schmaltz

Robby Fabbri

Jared McCann

David Pastrnak

Ivan Barbashev

Christian Dvorak

Brayden Point

Victor Arvidsson

Kevin Leblanc

Ondrej Kase

 

2015:

Timo Meier

Mikko Rantanen

Lawson Crouse

Kyle Connor

Travis Konecny

Anthony Beauvilier

Sebastian Aho

Denis Malgin

 

Would you trade Sanheim or Provorov for one of those guys?

 

 

In his first season, Hextall grabbed Oskar Lindblom, a guy who was projected as a late first/early second round pick in the fifth round. He's currently in the top 5 in scoring in the Swedish league which compares favorably to the AHL and is probably the third best league in the world. At 20 years old. He'll be on the Phantoms to end this season and likely will see time next season on the big club if he doesn't start there.

 

He drafted Travis Konecny in the first round in his second draft. Rubtsov in this past draft.

 

Later round picks like Mikael Vorobyov, Nicholas Aube-Kubel, Wade Allison, and Pascal Laberge look solid. There are even guys like Carson Twarynski and Tanner Laczynski who could have impacts on the team.

 

Building through the draft is decidedly NOT exciting. And what Hextall has done, building on the Morin pick with more defense first, makes sense. The defensemen will mature more slowly, goalies even moreso. So you add them FIRST, and then when you draft forwards they all mature together.

[flyercanuck]

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

That's part of my beef with hextall...he hasn't put any effort into drafting any forwards.  Defense is important, but how many teams can win with just defense?  Also, how many teams play exciting hockey with just defense?  I don't like going defense defense defense in the first round.  I like the konekny pick but I'm looking for something bigger and faster.  So I hope those defenseman turn out to be good players, because we're missing out on some offense to aquire them.

 

 Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Hextall drafted Rubtsov/Laberge/Alli9son/Konecny/Aube-Kubel/Lindblom in his 3 drafts. Those are very good forward prospects. The fact he did it while stockpiling excellent defence and goalie prospects is pretty damn impressive. This draft he can focus on forwards again. 

 

 The other thing you're missing is if his defensive picks all pan out, or most, he can trade for forwards. At an upgrade. Nobody wants to trade away their quality D these days...they're hard to come by. 

 

 And who knows...maybe the Flyers start a new trend rolling out 5 or 6 excellent defencemen who can play both ways for the most part, with Morin more on the D side and Ghost more on the O. It would be nice if the Flyers actually set the pace at something for the first time in decades.

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

You can point out Bryz and Vinny, but try to think about the positive deals Homer made.  His deals made the team exciting and they were a top 1/3 team for a while.  I'd take forsberg on one skate over the slop hextall puts out there every night.  I know that wasn't a Homer deal but I'm not just talking about Homer...I'm talking about the old "flyers way" that I think is overly criticized.  It wasn't all Bryz and Vinny deals.

 

 Again, Holmgren left the team with terrible contracts and the prospect cupboard almost bare. You can shine that up all you want...it still sucks.

 

 Like I said before, Hextall could trade all our youth and picks away and sign some washed up vets to longterm contracts and we could watch two rounds of playoff hockey again. Woohoo!

 

 And then the next gm could spend years trying to dig Philly out of the ditch again. Somebody has to stop the bleeding.

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

I still believe MacDonald was a hextall deal.  You can believe that or not, but that's what I believe in my heart.

 

 I'd like to agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

I do like having cheap, young talent.  Do the flyers have that...did I miss that acquisition?  The Blackhawks are doing it right.  They have an eye for talent that I'm not so sure Hextall has.  They rented weise because of what he did with Montreal.  Once they realized weise couldn't play, they didn't attempt to keep him.  That's when Hexy said "I'll pay him $2.5m/4years for what he did two teams ago.  He was invisible in Chicago but I don't care."

 

 Again, can you let Hextalls draft picks actually develop for a few years before you call them all busts. NONE of them can even drink in your country yet.

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

You're probably right.  Players who make the NHL before 22 are probably good enough to go before #10.  The flyers got there and picked a defenseman.  He looks good but I don't think he will be a game changer like a forward could be.  Homer's biggest mistake may have been picking a responsible, defensive forward at #8.  The flyers prospects approaching 22 probably aren't top 10 talent and that's why they haven't made the team yet.  And unfortunately, it doesn't look like hextall's plan will get them picking top 10 anytime soon (unless he can deal his way into the top 10).

 

 Provorov is probably the best flyer defencemen EVER drafted. But gee...we should have taken a winger. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't want him...not one. I have no clue what you're seeing if you don't think they guy is a stud in the making.

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

I don't believe much in development leagues anymore.  Back in the day, it was important to grow into being a "man" before you went into the NHL.  It was a slower and tougher league with monster goons.  Now, big, tough older men is the anomaly.  Most of the league is small, fast kids under 25.  The rules cater to small speed and skill players.  You can work on speed and skill in a development league, but you basically are what you are by 18, 19, or 20.  If development is so important to hextall and he won't rush prospects, why is konekny on the team?  He is the definition of an underdeveloped player.  He's a small kid with an immaturity to him.  Provorov is very skilled but there's an immaturity to his game too.  Yet Provorov is the NHL Flyers best defenseman and TK is probably better than anyone they play in the bottom 6.  I think this is not true of the other prospects because they probably aren't very good.  Let's hope I'm wrong.

 

 You are.

 

 Rubtsov has 18 points in 11 games since joining Chicoutimi. Lindblom is one of the top scorers in the Swedish Elite league ...as a 20 year old. Practically unheard of. 

 

 Pittsburgh won the cup last year. Their best players were all near 30.  Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Hornquist...The Hawks won the year before...Toews, Kane, Keith Seabrooke, hossa, Crawford.  What's that about age again?

 

34 minutes ago, icehole said:

 

I think this all started when I said all prospects that are part of hextall's plan should make the team next year.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we lose some of these bad contracts at the end of this season?  Shouldn't that open up spots for these kids to make the team?  If you could lose raffl, read, lyubimov, vandevelde, bellemare, streit, MDZ, and shultz, would you replace them with the hextall's prospects, would you trust hextall to sign FAs to replace those players, or would you rather keep some of those players?

 

 

 

 I think Morin can step in next year. Maybe Sanheim...but I'd prefer Hextall to sign a veteran defenceman...not a longterm huge contract, just a smart 30ish guy to help the kids along. Lindblom may come partway through the year if he comes over to the A for the start. I wouldn't rush anyone else...unless we somehow get Patrick or Hischier this draft. 

[icehole]

48 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Here's a list of forwards drafted after Sanheim in 2014 or Provorov in 2015 who have played more than 10 NHL games:

 

2014:

Nick Schmaltz

Robby Fabbri

Jared McCann

David Pastrnak

Ivan Barbashev

Christian Dvorak

Brayden Point

Victor Arvidsson

Kevin Leblanc

Ondrej Kase

 

2015:

Timo Meier

Mikko Rantanen

Lawson Crouse

Kyle Connor

Travis Konecny

Anthony Beauvilier

Sebastian Aho

Denis Malgin

 

Would you trade Sanheim or Provorov for one of those guys?

 

 

In his first season, Hextall grabbed Oskar Lindblom, a guy who was projected as a late first/early second round pick in the fifth round. He's currently in the top 5 in scoring in the Swedish league which compares favorably to the AHL and is probably the third best league in the world. At 20 years old. He'll be on the Phantoms to end this season and likely will see time next season on the big club if he doesn't start there.

 

He drafted Travis Konecny in the first round in his second draft. Rubtsov in this past draft.

 

Later round picks like Mikael Vorobyov, Nicholas Aube-Kubel, Wade Allison, and Pascal Laberge look solid. There are even guys like Carson Twarynski and Tanner Laczynski who could have impacts on the team.

 

Building through the draft is decidedly NOT exciting. And what Hextall has done, building on the Morin pick with more defense first, makes sense. The defensemen will mature more slowly, goalies even moreso. So you add them FIRST, and then when you draft forwards they all mature together.

I would take a couple of those guys over sanheim.  I've seen Sanheim in 3 games this season and he hasn't stood out.  I saw aho play one game where he had a hattrick and looked pretty good doing it.  Pastrnak isn't a bad player.  There's nothing wrong with fabbri or rantanen.  I won't pretend to know all those players but the ones I know have better numbers than anyone in the flyers bottom 6.

 

Great!  I'm glad guys are tearing up in other leagues while the flyers are laying eggs every night.  I don't want to be disrespectful, but I'm a flyers fan...not a fan of those other leagues.  

 

You're proving my point with your optimism of these players.  I like them so much that I want to see them all on the team next year.  I don't look at it being a risk of destroying confidence, but a chance to weed out the weak ones.

 

Building through the draft can be exciting if you draft exciting players and have them play at the highest level.  It is not exciting if you keep hearing about how good your property is playing for other teams while your team is probably the most boring in the league.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Hextall drafted Rubtsov/Laberge/Alli9son/Konecny/Aube-Kubel/Lindblom in his 3 drafts. Those are very good forward prospects. The fact he did it while stockpiling excellent defence and goalie prospects is pretty damn impressive. This draft he can focus on forwards again. 

 

 The other thing you're missing is if his defensive picks all pan out, or most, he can trade for forwards. At an upgrade. Nobody wants to trade away their quality D these days...they're hard to come by. 

 

 And who knows...maybe the Flyers start a new trend rolling out 5 or 6 excellent defencemen who can play both ways for the most part, with Morin more on the D side and Ghost more on the O. It would be nice if the Flyers actually set the pace at something for the first time in decades.

 

 

 Again, Holmgren left the team with terrible contracts and the prospect cupboard almost bare. You can shine that up all you want...it still sucks.

 

 Like I said before, Hextall could trade all our youth and picks away and sign some washed up vets to longterm contracts and we could watch two rounds of playoff hockey again. Woohoo!

 

 And then the next gm could spend years trying to dig Philly out of the ditch again. Somebody has to stop the bleeding.

 

 

 I'd like to agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

 

 

 Again, can you let Hextalls draft picks actually develop for a few years before you call them all busts. NONE of them can even drink in your country yet.

 

 

 Provorov is probably the best flyer defencemen EVER drafted. But gee...we should have taken a winger. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't want him...not one. I have no clue what you're seeing if you don't think they guy is a stud in the making.

 

 

 You are.

 

 Rubtsov has 18 points in 11 games since joining Chicoutimi. Lindblom is one of the top scorers in the Swedish Elite league ...as a 20 year old. Practically unheard of. 

 

 Pittsburgh won the cup last year. Their best players were all near 30.  Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Hornquist...The Hawks won the year before...Toews, Kane, Keith Seabrooke, hossa, Crawford.  What's that about age again?

 

 

 I think Morin can step in next year. Maybe Sanheim...but I'd prefer Hextall to sign a veteran defenceman...not a longterm huge contract, just a smart 30ish guy to help the kids along. Lindblom may come partway through the year if he comes over to the A for the start. I wouldn't rush anyone else...unless we somehow get Patrick or Hischier this draft. 

You're right...I don't know what I'm talking about.  Now why would someone who follows a team religiously for 20 years not know anything about these players you mentioned?  Besides hearing things on here, I've heard absolutely nothing about any of these players.

 

I think I said it before, but how many teams win with a stacked defense and average forwards?  I can't think of any off the top of my head.  Average to below average defenses with above average forwards can win though.

 

Oh man...I have dreams about going two or three rounds in the playoffs.  I would sell my soul to see that again.

 

I'm not saying anything bad about provorov...I just don't think he's a game changer.  Not many defensemen are.  Ghost of last year was the closest I've seen in a long time.

 

Who are kessel, hornqvist, and Hossa?  Were they drafted by the penguins and hawks?  Did they develop for 4 years in the AHL?  Aren't they too old and washed up to be picked up by a good team?

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, icehole said:

You're right...I don't know what I'm talking about.  Now why would someone who follows a team religiously for 20 years not know anything about these players you mentioned?  Besides hearing things on here, I've heard absolutely nothing about any of these players.

 

 If you don't follow hockey outside the Flyers, then you likely wouldn't. 

 

7 hours ago, icehole said:

 

I think I said it before, but how many teams win with a stacked defense and average forwards?  I can't think of any off the top of my head.  Average to below average defenses with above average forwards can win though.

 

Someone else said it before (AJ?)...generally goalies take longest to develop...defence close and forwards the shortest. So wouldn't it make perfect sense to draft the goalies and D first and get them further developed when you're a new gm? 

 

7 hours ago, icehole said:

 

Oh man...I have dreams about going two or three rounds in the playoffs.  I would sell my soul to see that again.

 

I'm not saying anything bad about provorov...I just don't think he's a game changer.  Not many defensemen are.  Ghost of last year was the closest I've seen in a long time.

 

 If you were to ask the other 29 gms around the league which Dman they'd take, I'd bet the farm every one of them would take Provorov. 

 

 No his rookie season isn't as "spectacular"...he's just a way better defenceman.

 

7 hours ago, icehole said:

 

Who are kessel, hornqvist, and Hossa?  Were they drafted by the penguins and hawks?  Did they develop for 4 years in the AHL?  Aren't they too old and washed up to be picked up by a good team?

 

 No, but Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrooke and Crawford were drafted by them. Hornquist played 4 years of SHL and 1 AHL before he made the NHL. Kessel played college and was 21 his first season in Boston..older than any of Hextalls picks. Crawford/Letang/Keith played in the A...Crosby/Malkin/Toews were top 3 picks.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 If you don't follow hockey outside the Flyers, then you likely wouldn't. 

 

 

Someone else said it before (AJ?)...generally goalies take longest to develop...defence close and forwards the shortest. So wouldn't it make perfect sense to draft the goalies and D first and get them further developed when you're a new gm? 

 

 

 If you were to ask the other 29 gms around the league which Dman they'd take, I'd bet the farm every one of them would take Provorov. 

 

 No his rookie season isn't as "spectacular"...he's just a way better defenceman.

 

 

 No, but Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrooke and Crawford were drafted by them. Hornquist played 4 years of SHL and 1 AHL before he made the NHL. Kessel played college and was 21 his first season in Boston..older than any of Hextalls picks. Crawford/Letang/Keith played in the A...Crosby/Malkin/Toews were top 3 picks.

Well, like always, I guess we'll just have to wait longer to see what we have.  That's the beauty of the plan (for Hextall's sake).  A GM could come in and make some juicy deals to get the team winning, but if he misses, he's fired in a few years.  Hextall can say "be patient...we're not going to rush anyone" and that saves his job for a few more years.

 

When you leave out all of the details of who's GM plan is better, and just go with how you feel, I was a "sit on the edge of my seat for every game, watch every game to the end no matter what the score was, listen to the radio all day at the trade deadline in anticipation of a trade" type of fan.  I actually liked the players and had a hatred towards most other teams.  Since hextall has taken over, I just lay down and relax for the games, if the score is out of hand, I'll turn it off, I usually fall asleep in the 3rd period no matter what, and I don't know or care when the trade deadline is.  Penguins fans can jab me and I'll just agree with them...I have no comebacks.  I hate almost every single player on the team.  I feel like there's no jam to the team.

 

I hold a grudge against Hextall for that because hockey used to be a big part of my life.  Now I find myself caring less and less.

 

I can't see the bright future like some can.  You talk about wanting more than just a couple playoff series wins, but that's the peak that I see with this plan.  They're not getting the superstars you need to be elite so how is this better than the old flyer way?  They might win a round or two, and then get beat by the crosby/ovechkin/mcdavid/eichel/matthews/kane team of that season.  That puts us right back to where we were 5-7 years ago but it was a long and boring route to get there.

[mojo1917]

12 hours ago, icehole said:

I'm not saying anything bad about provorov...I just don't think he's a game changer.  Not many defensemen are.  

 

Drew Doughty, PK Subban, Shea Weber, Duncan Kieth, Ryan Suter, Kris Letang, Aaron Ekblad, Victor Hedman.

Those guys are arguably the best players on their teams. and their teams are winning cups and divisions and stuff.

you're wrong to think not many defensemen are game changers.  The fact the 19 year old Ivan Provorov is the best defenseman on our team and I think he compares favorably with a couple of the guys I listed. He's a really good player already, he will continue to improve. He's not as dynamic offensively as some on my list but he will be able to control the game when he's on the ice and that is invaluable.

[King Knut]

On 2/20/2017 at 0:56 PM, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

I don't want anything to do with them. I'm "over him" – as the kids say.

 

I don't have a problem with any of this,
 

 

though I'm not sure I would qualify it as a blowup. A blowup, to me, would mean trading away guys people actually want. Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto is not a blowup.

 

Giroux should be traded.  I don't know to where or for what (Islanders seem like a safe bet because they seem terrified about resigning Taveres, but Giroux would never approve it).  Ottowa seems like someplace he'd like to go and they should have the room, but what of theirs do we want?  

 

Bobby Ryan isn't putting it together lately either and I doubt they part with Turris, but maybe?  

[brelic]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Giroux should be traded.  I don't know to where or for what (Islanders seem like a safe bet because they seem terrified about resigning Taveres, but Giroux would never approve it).  Ottowa seems like someplace he'd like to go and they should have the room, but what of theirs do we want?  

 

Bobby Ryan isn't putting it together lately either and I doubt they part with Turris, but maybe?  

 

I'd ask for Colin White+. No Colin White, no deal.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/colin-white/

 

I'm not interested in Bobby Ryan. He's 29 and been declining every year. He had his statistical peak at - wait for it - 23. That's when it happens for most NHL players.

 

[Bertmega]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

I'd ask for Colin White+. No Colin White, no deal.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/colin-white/

 

I'm not interested in Bobby Ryan. He's 29 and been declining every year. He had his statistical peak at - wait for it - 23. That's when it happens for most NHL players.

 

Colin White and Dzingel would get me thinking if I am Ron Hextall

[icehole]

4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Drew Doughty, PK Subban, Shea Weber, Duncan Kieth, Ryan Suter, Kris Letang, Aaron Ekblad, Victor Hedman.

Those guys are arguably the best players on their teams. and their teams are winning cups and divisions and stuff.

you're wrong to think not many defensemen are game changers.  The fact the 19 year old Ivan Provorov is the best defenseman on our team and I think he compares favorably with a couple of the guys I listed. He's a really good player already, he will continue to improve. He's not as dynamic offensively as some on my list but he will be able to control the game when he's on the ice and that is invaluable.

Doughty-maybe

Subban in nashville-maybe

Suter-probably not

Webber, Keith, letang, and Hedman-definitely not the best or most important players on the team.

Ekblad-what has Florida done?

 

Those are good defensmen, but I'd take monteal's speed and skill forwards, Kane and toews, Crosby & malkin, stamkos and Johnson and druin and tampa's other speed forwards over anyone of the defensmen you listed.

 

I think great forwards with crap defense will win every time over great defense and crap forwards.  You know what never wins, above average defense and below average forwards...which is where the flyers may be headed.

 

I'm not saying provorov is bad.  I'm not saying he won't get better.  He may even win the norris one day...just like Karlson did.

[murraycraven]

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

Doughty-maybe

Subban in nashville-maybe

Suter-probably not

Webber, Keith, letang, and Hedman-definitely not the best or most important players on the team.

Ekblad-what has Florida done?

 

Those are good defensmen, but I'd take monteal's speed and skill forwards, Kane and toews, Crosby & malkin, stamkos and Johnson and druin and tampa's other speed forwards over anyone of the defensmen you listed.

 

I think great forwards with crap defense will win every time over great defense and crap forwards.  You know what never wins, above average defense and below average forwards...which is where the flyers may be headed.

 

I'm not saying provorov is bad.  I'm not saying he won't get better.  He may even win the norris one day...just like Karlson did.

 

 

All the forwards you mentioned have extremely strong D pairings behind them.  

The one with the least depth on D is Tampa and they're performing on par with the Flyers right now.

 

Long story short, it takes both strong D and Skill up front to win.  This is why I'd risk trading one of our "prospects" for a skilled LW now.   No one here wants to trade anyone because we don't know how good they can be.

 

I'd suggest that trading them while they still have a world of upside is the way to turn an asset we arguably have too much of into an asset we sorely need. 

 

The organization should by now have a decent idea on Sanheim and Morin and Hagg.  

 

Personally Myers scares me the most because of his injury history, but his upside is apparently very high.  I'd theorize that between Ghost, Sanheim and Provo, we might have our 3 offensively minded D men already.

 

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, Bertmega said:

Colin White and Dzingel would get me thinking if I am Ron Hextall

 

Unless they have a clear idea of what's going on with Giroux that we're all not Privy to (imagine that) and that it can be solved with time (aka injury) I think he has to be considering something.  

 

Ottawa is in a good spot.  They have a ton of cap room and already pretty good and no one's leaving any time soon.  Giroux would be just the thing for a cup push year in and year out for a while to come.  

 

They might try to slough Bobby Ryan off onto us because he's got a big fat contract for a while to come and unloading him would make resigning Turris easier in a few years, especially if they add Giroux's 8+million for the next bazillion years.

 

But I'd strongly consider it.  G just looks utterly absent these days.  He's not looking like a franchise center let alone a captain.  He'd be going home his fiance is from the area too.  It's a win win win.  

 

The problem is the Flyers would have solved absolutely nothing  for the forseable future, but enabled themselves to be in a position in a few years.  

 

In the mean time the likes of Jake and Simmer and Schenn will no doubt be getting extremely restless.

[pilldoc]

4 hours ago, icehole said:

Webber, Keith, letang, and Hedman-definitely not the best or most important players on the team

 

Duncan Keith says hello ....

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/blackhawks-keith-unanimous-conn-smythe-choice/c-771033

 

The Chicago Blackhawks defenseman was a unanimous choice for the Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP after a 2-0 win against the Tampa Bay Lightning in Game 6 of the 2015 Stanley Cup Final at United Center on Monday that gave the Blackhawks their third championship in six seasons.

 

"He's the man," said forward Patrick Sharp, who has been a friend and teammate of Keith's for a decade. "He told me one time that sometimes he stays out on the ice longer because he wants to be out there if something's going to happen. He wants to be in charge. With an attitude like that, that's what you want. You want your best players on the ice. You don't want to be dragging them off."

 

Dragging him off might be the only way to get Keith off the ice.

 

Among teams that played past the first round, Keith led every player in the postseason with 31:06 of ice time per game and became the fourth skater in NHL history to log more than 700 minutes in a postseason (715:37).

 

He scored three goals, each a game-winner, and two of them bookended the Blackhawks' 16 postseason wins. His first ended Game 1 of the first round at the Nashville Predators at 7:49 of double overtime and his third was scored at 17:13 of the second period against the Lightning on Monday to break a scoreless tie.

 

"He's the best player in the world right now," Chicago forward Kris Versteeg said. "Him, [Jonathan Toews] and [Patrick Kane], those three are on another planet. The reason they are is just because of the clutch moments. They find ways to get it done all the time and they did it again."

 

Keith, who led defenseman in the playoffs with 18 assists, became the first defenseman to win the Conn Smythe since Scott Niedermayer in 2007 with the Anaheim Ducks. Keith has won the Norris Trophy twice and has two Olympic gold medals.

He joined Niedermayer, Nicklas Lidstrom, Brian Leetch, Scott Stevens, Al MacInnis, Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr (twice) and Serge Savard as Conn Smythe winners.

 

"He's an amazing player," Blackhawks general manager Stan Bowman said. "You look at the workload he has and to contribute the way he does at both ends of the ice, in every situation, he does it all. He was fantastic. I've never seen him play better in his career and he's obviously won a couple [Norris Trophies], so that says a lot."

 

 

[radoran]

6 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I'd ask for Colin White+. No Colin White, no deal.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/colin-white/

 

I'm not interested in Bobby Ryan. He's 29 and been declining every year. He had his statistical peak at - wait for it - 23. That's when it happens for most NHL players.

 

 

I'm not particularly interested in Ryan. But his falloff does dovetail nicely with the lack of Getzlaf and Perry in his life. Silfverberg is the new Ryan.

 

One could wonder what playing with a Giroux and/or Voracek could do for his game. And then you see five more years at $7.25M and you say "no thanks".

 

Your last point makes one wonder why they sign guys after that point to big money, long term deals... Those should be exceptions to the rule and not just because "you're the guy who's here when we needed to sign someone".