Bring in the Youth!

[icehole]

26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Fine by me.

 

And i can't follow a couch GM 

 

Thanks   Now everyone knows I'm not a real GM!

 

Of course I'm a couch GM!  Aren't we all?

[pilldoc]

10 minutes ago, icehole said:

Did you just say the pens won despite Kessel in one paragraph and then say he led the team in scoring in the next paragraph?  I don't think they win the cup without him.

 

Yes. I did....Kessel is not what won the cup for the Pens.  Reread my post....Stellar goaltending is what won the cup for the Pens.  Murray played lights out.  Yes or No....put Kessel on the Sharks.  Do the Sharks win the Stanley Cup vs. the Pens.  I will save you your breath.....No they don't.  Murray simply out played Martin Jones.

 

16 minutes ago, icehole said:

 I don't think the flyers will be able to compete with them even when they do have their complete team.

 

Then why watch the games.  You might as well turn in your Flyer fan card. 

 

 

[radoran]

41 minutes ago, icehole said:

Did the current leafs regime sign those players or did they inherit them?  Either way, Kadri and JVR outperform just about every flyer but make below $5m.  So it's not a huge deal to have them on the team playing with the young kids.  They are also 27, so they're not on the downside like giroux is.

 

And the leafs are in a playoff spot being led by two 19 year olds and a 20 year old.  They weren't expected to do much this year, and 9 points is a pretty big spread.

 

It's really not a big spread at all and the point that the Flyers were a 90+ point team twice in the past three years seems lost on you.

 

This is a down year. It's far from a BLOW IT UP year.

 

Again, the Flyers made the BLOW IT UP decision you're suggesting a few years back.

[icehole]

34 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

It's really not a big spread at all and the point that the Flyers were a 90+ point team twice in the past three years seems lost on you.

 

This is a down year. It's far from a BLOW IT UP year.

 

Again, the Flyers made the BLOW IT UP decision you're suggesting a few years back.

There's a difference between stale & stagnant 90+ seasons and up & coming young talented team 90+ seasons.  The flyer's future isn't putting up 90+ points, the flyers that we'll soon forget put up those points.  I'd be over the moon if the flyers had two 19 year Olds and a 20 year old getting them 90 points.  That's a sign that things are about to get really good.  Not things are the best they're going to get.

 

I liked what they did a few years back, but that wasn't a full blowup.  They only switched out a few players for some youth, but the culture of the team didn't change.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

 

Yes. I did....Kessel is not what won the cup for the Pens.  Reread my post....Stellar goaltending is what won the cup for the Pens.  Murray played lights out.  Yes or No....put Kessel on the Sharks.  Do the Sharks win the Stanley Cup vs. the Pens.  I will save you your breath.....No they don't.  Murray simply out played Martin Jones.

 

 

Then why watch the games.  You might as well turn in your Flyer fan card. 

 

 

To say Kessel wasn't a big factor in them winning the cup is just shortsighted, but that's a little off topic.

 

I will watch, but I've lost my passion.  I don't like the player, I don't like the coach, and I don't like the GM.  Maybe an injection of youth could change that all.  That's the point of this entire discussion!

[pilldoc]

2 minutes ago, icehole said:

To say Kessel wasn't a big factor in them winning the cup is just shortsighted

 

Then we will agree to disagree .....

 

14 minutes ago, icehole said:

I will watch, but I've lost my passion.  I don't like the player, I don't like the coach, and I don't like the GM

 

Then don't watch at all.  I've got nothing more to add to this conversation because I would just be wasting my breath.  It is very obvious, despite what everyone has posted on this topic and other topics, you still, by choice, remain closed minded. 

 

 

[icehole]

54 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Then don't watch at all.  

 

 

That's actually a solid piece of advice and I'm actually slowly moving toward that.  Still watch a little bit because it's on and I like hockey.  

 

This is the first year since I was 17 that I can just turn the game off and put it out of my mind.  Last night, I watched the first period, the first fiew minutes of the second, then I went up and laid in bed with the wife watching Mrs. Doubtfire.  I swear to god...Mrs Doubtfire! 

 

The flyers were up a goal at the time, but I just didn't care.  Win or lose, they're not making the playoffs because they're too inconsistent to make up ground.  Nobody on the team is capable of doing anything exciting so really, what's the point.

 

I hope people realize the reason I always put the team down is because I'm very passionate about flyers hockey but they've really let me down.  I can't relate to most of this fan base because they seem to just go with whatever flyers tell them to think.  Hextall is great because we were told he is doing good things.  Couturier is great because scouts told us he is.  Player X is great because Pierre thinks that Hextall is great and if Hextall picked him, he must be great.

 

So when you say I am close minded, you're wrong.  My mind is so open to the fact that Hextall might be wrong and his decisions might be bad ones.  I'm open to the fact that this team might not be as good as everyone says they will be.  I don't expect everyone to be as negative as me, but I wish the fans would hold these guys accountable for bad moves, and not praise them for things that haven't happened yet.

 

I'm also so open to the fact that moves can be made in the summer, and young players can be given a shot to prove what they've got, and this team can be exciting once again. 

[radoran]

10 minutes ago, icehole said:

 They only switched out a few players for some youth, but the culture of the team didn't change.

 

Could that be the problem?

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

 

[pilldoc]

49 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

 

 

Great movie! 

[icehole]

11 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Could that be the problem?

Yes...it is.  It hasn't changed yet, they're not going to go out and sign 5 new free agents or trade for 5 new big names.  So the only option for change is to bring in guys that haven't played on the team but are in the system.  Everyone speaks very highly of them so I'm sure they would be accepted on the team.

 

 

[icehole]

So what are some of the very few bright spots of the season?  Simmonds?  And...if provorov and konecny were still being "developed" in another league, would there be any other bright spots?

 

I think every person on here is scared to ruin these kids by playing them too early.  Yet, when Hextall brings 2 19 year olds on the team, everyone completely supports that decision, and it ends up being the only brights spots on the team all season.  

 

It's not an exact science, but I don't see the big risk in it either.  Once they leave juniors, they're playing against men in any league.  They're playing in front of crowds in any league.  It's just a little faster and the crowds are a little bigger in the big league.  Provorov struggled in his first couple months.  Did he curl up in a ball, or did he become the flyers best defenseman at the age of 20?  TK had his struggles.  Does he look broken, or is he still contributing out there?  Will they be more comfortable next year and be that much better with a year under their belts?

 

If Hextall finds a way to bring up morin, hang, sanheim, rubstov, lindblom, and a first round forward from this year's draft (I know that's a lot and it would never happen), what would everyone's reaction be?  Would they say things like "he doesn't have a clue how to run an organization", or would they be excited to have a young talented team that they've been waiting to see for 3 years?

[pilldoc]

@icehole

 

Here is Hexy's philosophy on promoting prospects: (it is a great read and worthy material to read in your spare time)

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2016/7/8/12123138/cracking-the-code-of-hextalls-philosophy-of-promoting-prospects

 

1. No prospect is gift wrapped a spot, but if he's ready, he'll stay regardless of situation.

2. The danger of a player spending too much time in lower levels is overblown.

3. Final decisions come down to camp performance weighted by play in lower levels.

 

How a player earns that spot in the first place is a bit more murky, by Hextall's own admission. But it appears to be a combination of strong play at lower levels that puts a prospect in a certain high-end class prior to camp, and then that same player taking advantage of the extended audition to prove that his advanced billing is legitimate.

Essentially, the checklist that a prospect needs to pass in order to make the NHL out of training camp is as follows:

 

1. Is he physically ready for the grind of an 82-game NHL season and playoffs?
2. Did he have a strong season last year at a lower level (CHL, college hockey, Euro leagues, AHL)?
3. In training camp, has he consistently showcased the skillset that allowed him to thrive at that lower level?
4. Is he better, right now, than a current player at his same position on the NHL roster who fills a similar role?

All other considerations are just noise. There will be no "open spots" left for prospects, nor will team needs play a major role in the process, aside from lowering the barrier of entry if Philadelphia has a current roster player with a 65 rating waiting to be jumped by a kid.

 

Also, don't expect Hextall and the Flyers to be swayed by fears that a player could stagnate at lower levels as they make their decisions. It's obvious that the Flyers' general manager is of the belief that if a prospect is not deemed to be NHL-ready, he can always find skills to improve or new goals to achieve while waiting for his chance.

 

In the end, Hextall envisions his prospect promotion system as a truly pure meritocracy, where prospects are not given special treatment due to reputation or circumstance.

 

You have to look at each prospect individually and apply the same rules as stated above, to them. Every prospect develops at a different rate.  You also have to look at where they fall among the rules of Junior Hockey vs the AHL.  Obviously both TK and Provorov would have been better served going to the AHL last year, but age eligibility prevented this and thus they went back to their junior teams.  Then when training camp started management thought they have progressed enough to be deemed NHL worthy.  (In their cases, noting was gonna be gained by sending them to the AHL).

 

With regard to the players you mentioned:

1 Morin - from what I have read is just about NHL ready and will have a legitimate shot of making club next year.

2.Sanheim -  see above

3. Hagg - probably 1 more year with Phantoms

4. Lindblom - a very exciting prospect with a very high ceiling.  Since he plays in Europe the AHL/ Junior age rules do not apply to him.  Has a realistic shot at making club.  Will most like be successful with the Phantoms.

5. Rubstov - Another player who is excelling very well with his junior team since coming over from the AHL.  Because of his age he will most likely go back to his Junior team.  You have to apply Hexy's standards above to see if he makes team.  If not I'm pretty sure he will go back to Juniors because of hes age.  I don't think the Phantoms are in play at this time for him. (I'm not sure since he came from the KHL during this past season)

 

I think realistically there are 2 or 3 players above who could make the club and I would be ecstatic.  If they don't then that means they have not progressed enough according to Hexy's standards.  It would be disappointing but I would be understanding.

 

Just remember every prospect progresses at their own rate and we can't force them into a cookie cutter type mold.

[flyercanuck]

29 minutes ago, icehole said:

So what are some of the very few bright spots of the season?  Simmonds?  And...if provorov and konecny were still being "developed" in another league, would there be any other bright spots?

 

I think every person on here is scared to ruin these kids by playing them too early.  Yet, when Hextall brings 2 19 year olds on the team, everyone completely supports that decision, and it ends up being the only brights spots on the team all season.  

 

It's not an exact science, but I don't see the big risk in it either.  Once they leave juniors, they're playing against men in any league.  They're playing in front of crowds in any league.  It's just a little faster and the crowds are a little bigger in the big league.  Provorov struggled in his first couple months.  Did he curl up in a ball, or did he become the flyers best defenseman at the age of 20?  TK had his struggles.  Does he look broken, or is he still contributing out there?  Will they be more comfortable next year and be that much better with a year under their belts?

 

If Hextall finds a way to bring up morin, hang, sanheim, rubstov, lindblom, and a first round forward from this year's draft (I know that's a lot and it would never happen), what would everyone's reaction be?  Would they say things like "he doesn't have a clue how to run an organization", or would they be excited to have a young talented team that they've been waiting to see for 3 years?

 

Provorov and Konecny were NHL ready. They are both highly skilled players. They are both very mature. They both like physical play. They both play a solid 200 foot game. They were both better than the guy they beat out.

 

Lindblom might be ready or he might need a bit of AHL seasoning. He's skilled, mature and strong and plays well with and without the puck. But he hasn't played North American hockey.

 

Sanheim needed to learn how to play the defensive game better before he came to the NHL. He would have had his confidence destroyed if they'd have brought him up this year. You want a guy like him to be confident when he pinches, but also to pick his spots when he does. In the Dub he was allowed to do that way more than he'll ever be able to against the worlds best. 

 

That's why the A is called a developmental league.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

16 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

@icehole

 

Here is Hexy's philosophy on promoting prospects: (it is a great read and worthy material to read in your spare time)

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2016/7/8/12123138/cracking-the-code-of-hextalls-philosophy-of-promoting-prospects

 

1. No prospect is gift wrapped a spot, but if he's ready, he'll stay regardless of situation.

2. The danger of a player spending too much time in lower levels is overblown.

3. Final decisions come down to camp performance weighted by play in lower levels.

 

How a player earns that spot in the first place is a bit more murky, by Hextall's own admission. But it appears to be a combination of strong play at lower levels that puts a prospect in a certain high-end class prior to camp, and then that same player taking advantage of the extended audition to prove that his advanced billing is legitimate.

Essentially, the checklist that a prospect needs to pass in order to make the NHL out of training camp is as follows:

 

1. Is he physically ready for the grind of an 82-game NHL season and playoffs?
2. Did he have a strong season last year at a lower level (CHL, college hockey, Euro leagues, AHL)?
3. In training camp, has he consistently showcased the skillset that allowed him to thrive at that lower level?
4. Is he better, right now, than a current player at his same position on the NHL roster who fills a similar role?

All other considerations are just noise. There will be no "open spots" left for prospects, nor will team needs play a major role in the process, aside from lowering the barrier of entry if Philadelphia has a current roster player with a 65 rating waiting to be jumped by a kid.

 

Also, don't expect Hextall and the Flyers to be swayed by fears that a player could stagnate at lower levels as they make their decisions. It's obvious that the Flyers' general manager is of the belief that if a prospect is not deemed to be NHL-ready, he can always find skills to improve or new goals to achieve while waiting for his chance.

 

In the end, Hextall envisions his prospect promotion system as a truly pure meritocracy, where prospects are not given special treatment due to reputation or circumstance.

 

You have to look at each prospect individually and apply the same rules as stated above, to them. Every prospect develops at a different rate.  You also have to look at where they fall among the rules of Junior Hockey vs the AHL.  Obviously both TK and Provorov would have been better served going to the AHL last year, but age eligibility prevented this and thus they went back to their junior teams.  Then when training camp started management thought they have progressed enough to be deemed NHL worthy.  (In their cases, noting was gonna be gained by sending them to the AHL).

 

With regard to the players you mentioned:

1 Morin - from what I have read is just about NHL ready and will have a legitimate shot of making club next year.

2.Sanheim -  see above

3. Hagg - probably 1 more year with Phantoms

4. Lindblom - a very exciting prospect with a very high ceiling.  Since he plays in Europe the AHL/ Junior age rules do not apply to him.  Has a realistic shot at making club.  Will most like be successful with the Phantoms.

5. Rubstov - Another player who is not excelling very well with his junior team since coming over from the AHL.  Because of his age he will most likely go back to his Junior team.  You have to apply Hexy's standards above to see if he makes team.  If not I'm pretty sure he will go back to Juniors because of hes age.  I don't think the Phantoms are in play at this time for him. (I'm not sure since he came from the KHL during this past season)

 

I think realistically there are 2 or 3 players above who could make the club and I would be ecstatic.  If they don't then that means they have not progressed enough according to Hexy's standards.  It would be disappointing but I would be understanding.

 

Just remember every prospect progresses at their own rate and we can't force them into a cookie cutter type mold.

 

Guess I was typing while you posted...we both said basically the same thing. 

 

(think you meant Rubtsov IS excelling)

[pilldoc]

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Guess I was typing while you posted...we both said basically the same thing. 

 

(think you meant Rubtsov IS excelling)

 

LOL ... Ooops ...that is what happens when you are typing and your wife is proofreading your son's report and reading it out loud ..

[AJgoal]

From what I've read, Hagg may actually be NHL ready. He just may not have as high a ceiling as some of the others.

 

Technically, Rubtsov could play in the AHL next season since he was drafted out of Europe. @flyercanuck and I have talked about it a bit, and he's convinced me that he should be somewhere where he's going to get significant ice time at center. Not sure if that's juniors where he's been playing LW (he could get traded to a team that needs one or lose his center and slide over), or if a slot will be open on one of the top three lines on the Phantoms. I just want the best situation for him to improve and succeed. 

[murraycraven]

It certainly feels like groundhog day around here a lot lately...

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

From what I've read, Hagg may actually be NHL ready. He just may not have as high a ceiling as some of the others.

 

Technically, Rubtsov could play in the AHL next season since he was drafted out of Europe. @flyercanuck and I have talked about it a bit, and he's convinced me that he should be somewhere where he's going to get significant ice time at center. Not sure if that's juniors where he's been playing LW (he could get traded to a team that needs one or lose his center and slide over), or if a slot will be open on one of the top three lines on the Phantoms. I just want the best situation for him to improve and succeed. 

 

Nicolas Roy is Rubtsovs centre...and a very good one at that. I don't think it hurt German to play wing with him for the short span he was on the Saugeens. Roy will either be in the A or on the Canes next season, so Rubtsov will likely be Chicoutimis #1 centre...though he will likely be traded as they will be in rebuild mode. His injuries this year never let him get a flow going to his game...but he certainly played well when healthy. 

[Lindbergh31]

20 hours ago, icehole said:

Why did the flyers draft so far back?  Is it because Hextall didn't have the foresight to make some moves to get up higher?  The leafs missed the playoffs for like 10 years straight until they stumbled in with guys JVR and Kessel.  They lost and knew they wouldn't get any further with Kessel, so they shipped he and his 8 years off to Pittsburgh.  The next year they had the #1 pick.  

 

Oh, and Pittsburgh won the cup with Kessel.  Two teams that know what they are doing.  Kessel wasn't going to win squat in Toronto so it wasn't a big deal to lose him.  Pittsburgh needed him to win the cup so they thought it was worth it to take on his contract.

The Pens didn't know that they'd win the cup with Kessel when they traded for him, if the Pens didn't get great goaltending from Murray they wouldn't have even made it out of the divisional playoffs. And the Leafs were just lucky enough that some other team wanted to take on Kessel's contract even though they had to eat $1.2 million per year of the remaining years of his contract to get rid of him. If Hextall can find a sucker to take on McDonald's or Voracek contracts then go nuts. The Leafs were lucky to get the 1st overall in the lottery after finishing last in the league, when the Flyers finished dead last they weren't so lucky to get 1st overall to draft Patrick Kane. And how do you know if Hextall didn't try to make some moves to get a higher pick? Sometimes GMs need a bit of luck for good things to happen.

[icehole]

3 hours ago, pilldoc said:

@icehole

 

Here is Hexy's philosophy on promoting prospects: (it is a great read and worthy material to read in your spare time)

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2016/7/8/12123138/cracking-the-code-of-hextalls-philosophy-of-promoting-prospects

 

1. No prospect is gift wrapped a spot, but if he's ready, he'll stay regardless of situation.

2. The danger of a player spending too much time in lower levels is overblown.

3. Final decisions come down to camp performance weighted by play in lower levels.

 

How a player earns that spot in the first place is a bit more murky, by Hextall's own admission. But it appears to be a combination of strong play at lower levels that puts a prospect in a certain high-end class prior to camp, and then that same player taking advantage of the extended audition to prove that his advanced billing is legitimate.

Essentially, the checklist that a prospect needs to pass in order to make the NHL out of training camp is as follows:

 

1. Is he physically ready for the grind of an 82-game NHL season and playoffs?
2. Did he have a strong season last year at a lower level (CHL, college hockey, Euro leagues, AHL)?
3. In training camp, has he consistently showcased the skillset that allowed him to thrive at that lower level?
4. Is he better, right now, than a current player at his same position on the NHL roster who fills a similar role?

All other considerations are just noise. There will be no "open spots" left for prospects, nor will team needs play a major role in the process, aside from lowering the barrier of entry if Philadelphia has a current roster player with a 65 rating waiting to be jumped by a kid.

 

Also, don't expect Hextall and the Flyers to be swayed by fears that a player could stagnate at lower levels as they make their decisions. It's obvious that the Flyers' general manager is of the belief that if a prospect is not deemed to be NHL-ready, he can always find skills to improve or new goals to achieve while waiting for his chance.

 

In the end, Hextall envisions his prospect promotion system as a truly pure meritocracy, where prospects are not given special treatment due to reputation or circumstance.

 

You have to look at each prospect individually and apply the same rules as stated above, to them. Every prospect develops at a different rate.  You also have to look at where they fall among the rules of Junior Hockey vs the AHL.  Obviously both TK and Provorov would have been better served going to the AHL last year, but age eligibility prevented this and thus they went back to their junior teams.  Then when training camp started management thought they have progressed enough to be deemed NHL worthy.  (In their cases, noting was gonna be gained by sending them to the AHL).

 

With regard to the players you mentioned:

1 Morin - from what I have read is just about NHL ready and will have a legitimate shot of making club next year.

2.Sanheim -  see above

3. Hagg - probably 1 more year with Phantoms

4. Lindblom - a very exciting prospect with a very high ceiling.  Since he plays in Europe the AHL/ Junior age rules do not apply to him.  Has a realistic shot at making club.  Will most like be successful with the Phantoms.

5. Rubstov - Another player who is excelling very well with his junior team since coming over from the AHL.  Because of his age he will most likely go back to his Junior team.  You have to apply Hexy's standards above to see if he makes team.  If not I'm pretty sure he will go back to Juniors because of hes age.  I don't think the Phantoms are in play at this time for him. (I'm not sure since he came from the KHL during this past season)

 

I think realistically there are 2 or 3 players above who could make the club and I would be ecstatic.  If they don't then that means they have not progressed enough according to Hexy's standards.  It would be disappointing but I would be understanding.

 

Just remember every prospect progresses at their own rate and we can't force them into a cookie cutter type mold.

I understand that players develop differently, but what I don't understand is how we can get so excited for a player, and yet that player is worse than read or Macdonald or vandevelde currently.  It just doesn't add up.  Even if they are young, shouldn't they still be better options than what is currently on the team?  If not, I have trouble getting excited for them.

 

It's just my way of looking at it.

[icehole]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Provorov and Konecny were NHL ready. They are both highly skilled players. They are both very mature. They both like physical play. They both play a solid 200 foot game. They were both better than the guy they beat out.

 

Lindblom might be ready or he might need a bit of AHL seasoning. He's skilled, mature and strong and plays well with and without the puck. But he hasn't played North American hockey.

 

Sanheim needed to learn how to play the defensive game better before he came to the NHL. He would have had his confidence destroyed if they'd have brought him up this year. You want a guy like him to be confident when he pinches, but also to pick his spots when he does. In the Dub he was allowed to do that way more than he'll ever be able to against the worlds best. 

 

That's why the A is called a developmental league.

 

 

Maybe I just expect too much because I've seen it work before.  I see it working now.  Knowing when a player is ready isn't an exact science, but TK and provorov don't meet some of the standards Hextall laid out to make the team.  I'm guessing these other kids do meet a lot of the standards Hextall laid out.  So how does he decide who stays and who goes.

 

Of course there's no danger in leaving them in the AHL or other leagues, but it's frustrating to see them succeed at a lower level while the big team is struggling.

 

Is there contract and money implications for leaving someone in the AHL?  Will TK and Provorov be eligible for a new contract sooner because they are already NHL players?

[OccamsRazor]

8 hours ago, pilldoc said:

Here is Hexy's philosophy on promoting prospects

 

Ron Hextall is in the building for the Midwest Regional, could be focusing on Mike Vecchione

 

http://sonsofpenn.com/ron-hextall-scouting-midwest-regional-mike-vecchione/

 

 

I hope he gets him these guys are like free draft picks.

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=98845

 

Another former Captain...fingers crossed...

[hf101]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Ron Hextall is in the building for the Midwest Regional, could be focusing on Mike Vecchione

 

http://sonsofpenn.com/ron-hextall-scouting-midwest-regional-mike-vecchione/

 

 

I hope he gets him these guys are like free draft picks.

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=98845

 

Another former Captain...fingers crossed...

 

 

heh, maybe Hexy will sign him shortly and he can play tomorrow vs the Penguins.  lol

kinda like Brock Boeser...

[brelic]

5 hours ago, icehole said:

Maybe I just expect too much because I've seen it work before.  I see it working now.  Knowing when a player is ready isn't an exact science, but TK and provorov don't meet some of the standards Hextall laid out to make the team.  I'm guessing these other kids do meet a lot of the standards Hextall laid out.  So how does he decide who stays and who goes.

 

Of course there's no danger in leaving them in the AHL or other leagues, but it's frustrating to see them succeed at a lower level while the big team is struggling.

 

Is there contract and money implications for leaving someone in the AHL?  Will TK and Provorov be eligible for a new contract sooner because they are already NHL players?

 

Honest question - what do you do for a living?