Potential moves for Flyers

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

This. It's all i am asking....for the number 2 pick overall...all of it sort of reminds me of JVR when he was first with the Flyers and didn't bring it consistently and sometimes looked like he would be rather doing something else. Sorry just call it like i see it.

I get this, but at the same time they wound up trading away a multiple 30-goal scorer for Luke Schenn.

 

Cautionary tale, that.

[mojo1917]

@OccamsRazor

 

The point here which i didn't illuminate very well is this. Patrick is a kid, he doesn't have his man weight. he's 21 now ? 

He's not a finished product- by any means and he has a lot of raw materials to work with. 

I like what Fletcher said, if the Flyers deal him there won't be a question as to why.

 

We've had this conversation before, it is rare for a kid to make an impact in the NHL right away, the superstars do, the very good players often don't. 

I'm not going to call a kid with his skill set a bust until he's 25 and out of the league selling insurance. 

 

 

[mojo1917]

12 minutes ago, radoran said:

From where I sit, Patrick shouldn't have been on the team in Y1 and maybe not Y2. An overage Junior wouldn't have been terrible and then starting a year in the A might also have been beneficial.

You've said this before and it made sense then too, he was penciled in the lineup the minute that ping pong ball landed in the Flyers favor.

He would not have been harmed destroying the WHL for another year.

Hind sight is 20/20 though, he came to camp and looked good enough and since Schenn was then traded...perhaps not one of Ron's greatest GMing moments for sure. 

I don't think the kid is sissy or bust; I think he's a kid and they don't develop linearly, at all, none of them. 

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

I get this, but at the same time they wound up trading away a multiple 30-goal scorer for Luke Schenn.

 

Well certainly don't trade him for the sake of trading him.

 

Get a decent return for him or keep him.

 

Hell call me crazy but i would include him the Karlsson deal.

 

Then go sign a 3rd center option. A 3rd line center will be easier to find in free agency than a 2nd line center.

 

After you swing the trade go sign Marcus Johansson to center the 3rd. Or kick the tires on Colin Wilson.

 

Giroux Couturier Konecny

JVR Karlsson Voracek

Lindblom Johansson ?????

Raffl Laughton Hartman

 

or swing a minor trade with Tampa who also has cap issues.

 

Giroux Couturier Konecny

JVR Karlsson Voracek

Lindblom Paquette  Donskoi??? Nyquist?? Connolly???

Raffl Laughton Hartman

 

There are options sure i know some will be pissed about moving Patrick. But just kicking the can down the road...

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

He's not a finished product- by any means and he has a lot of raw materials to work with. 

I like what Fletcher said, if the Flyers deal him there won't be a question as to why.

 

Sure no way am i saying he is done getting better.

 

But what happens if you keep him and once again he has a down year and now you have lost even more value and faith in him. If Vegas was willing to do it i would ship him out for Karlsson in a heartbeat.

 

And who knows he could come in and have a good 3rd season like Barkov did. But now is the time to explore all options.

 

I wonder would Vegas do a Karlsson and Miller for Patrick and Ghost??? Asking for a friend.

[mojo1917]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

I wonder would Vegas do a Karlsson and Miller for Patrick and Ghost??? Asking for a friend.

I don't know if that helps them with their cap issues wouldn't it be kind of a wash ?

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't know if that helps them with their cap issues wouldn't it be kind of a wash ?

 

Patrick new deal will be cheaper than Karlsson who will be wanting 7-8 mill per.

 

And Miller is making 3.8mill and Ghost 4.5 mill so that would save about 700K right there.

 

Patrick is only making 925K next year and is a RFA so you can just sign him next offseason.

 

Karlsson isn't under contract yet....he wants his 7-8 mill NOW!!! So that could potentially save them 8 mill they won't have to fork out next year.

 

Remember they have ZERO cap space right now. ZERO. 

[AJgoal]

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't know if that helps them with their cap issues wouldn't it be kind of a wash ?

 

it would actually add to their cap hit.

[AJgoal]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Patrick new deal will be cheaper than Karlsson who will be wanting 7-8 mill per.

 

And Miller is making 3.8mill and Ghost 4.5 mill so that would save about 700K right there.

 

Patrick is only making 925K next year and is a RFA so you can just sign him next offseason.

 

Karlsson isn't under contract yet....he wants his 7-8 mill NOW!!! So that could potentially save them 8 mill they won't have to fork out next year.

 

Remember they have ZERO cap space right now. ZERO. 

 

Right. So adding 1.6 million to their cap doesn't help them at all.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Right. So adding 1.6 million to their cap doesn't help them at all.

 

How do you figure it sure is cheaper than the 7-8 mill Karlsson would require. You think he is going to play for free??

 

Sure they would have to make other moves...but it's a start for them it would be like they say we're done all set.

 

 They get some good talent back and aren't getting completely robbed.

 

I mean if they want then sure you could give them Hagg instead of Ghost if they prefer.

[Podein25]

Idea: Nola Patrick (Winnipeger) for Trouba. You could almost do it straight up.

[mojo1917]

What about Ghost for RNH and a 3rd?

salaries are ballpark Ghost -1.5, that way he's far away and we get a guy that has lots of speed and skill and has been languishing playing for the Oil...?

2nd line center problem solved...do the playoffs require more people with a Hayes frame though ? in a copycat league how many teams will be following the Blues model or the Bruins which seems  to be speed and...luck ? I mean they play with toughness which is admirable. 

[radoran]

54 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

he came to camp and looked good enough

 

See, I don't think he in any way "played his way" onto the team and then had all of three points in his first eight games and went on to post six in his first 24.

 

YMMV, which is fair, but I just don't think he was an NHL player at 19. He had played 33 games in Junior and missed most of the season and playoffs due to injury. He could have benefitted A LOT from another year in Junior if only to get stamina back.

 

You don't get that as "a kid" still filling out and coming off an injury in the NHL.

Edited June 7, 2019 by radoran

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

YMMV, which is fair, but I just don't think he was an NHL player at 19.

 

53 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

he came to camp and looked good enough

 

maybe this wasn't the best choice of words.  He came to camp and didn't **** the bed - that's more concrete, and better illustrates what I wanted to convey.  The spot was his when the ball dropped- not Ron's finest judgement. 

 

It is clear with hindsight he was not an NHL player at 19 with half a jr season under his belt.

I thought I agreed with this thought multiple times over an extended period of time ? even in the very post that generated your quote. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

 

maybe this wasn't the best choice of words.  He came to camp and didn't **** the bed - that's more concrete, and better illustrates what I wanted to convey.  The spot was his when the ball dropped- not Ron's finest judgement. 

 

It is clear with hindsight he was not an NHL player at 19 with half a jr season under his belt.

I thought I agreed with this thought multiple times over an extended period of time ? even in the very post that generated your quote. 

 

 

And they made the right move last year to start the year when Vorobyev didn't look good to start the season they sent him back down.

 

And if Hextall was giving in his philosophies then he could have done the same with Patrick when he didn't look so great he could have sent him back to juniors....but he was unwavering in that respect....he said it, it was either the Flyers to start the season or back to juniors.

 

He could have used the 9 games to evaluate how he looked and we know he then could have been sent back but he chose to keep hi up.

 

Once again another reason Ron isn't here anymore his lack of flexibility...and it cost him his job. 

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I thought I agreed with this thought multiple times over an extended period of time ? even in the very post that generated your quote. 

 

Not "arguing" - "discussing".

 

And the MV of YMMV is applicable - may vary. Apologies if you thought I meant you did vary. Possibly "One's Mileage May Vary" would have been better but I don't know that OMMV is a recognized acronym

 

 

[ctid]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

Idea: Nola Patrick (Winnipeger) for Trouba. You could almost do it straight up.

Too afraid it will be another JVR/L. Schenn trade. Granted Trouba is a way more proven commodity than Luke was at the time of the trade and same goes for jvr vs Patrick. But still, I really don't want to give up on Patrick. Still belive he will develop into a magnificent player

[mojo1917]

20 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Not "arguing" - "discussing".

 

And the MV of YMMV is applicable - may vary. Apologies if you thought I meant you did vary. Possibly "One's Mileage May Vary" would have been better but I don't know that OMMV is a recognized acronym

 

 

Well as long as we're discussing then... 19 showed flashes of very ++ play. I can also easily see where if one's watching him in practice and seeing those "flashes" during the games one could think, "he's starting to get it".

When he's good, he's really good- the more that guy shows up the better for everyone. 

Might be easier to confirm a bias when watching tape from the early west coast swing last year. 

 

Any thoughts on Ghost for RNH ? I'm not in a hurry to trade 53 but if Hayes gives us a reason to boo him for eternity, there needs to be a plan B-E right ?

 

 

[Podein25]

10 minutes ago, ctid said:

Too afraid it will be another JVR/L. Schenn trade. Granted Trouba is a way more proven commodity than Luke was at the time of the trade and same goes for jvr vs Patrick. But still, I really don't want to give up on Patrick. Still belive he will develop into a magnificent player

 

Same, was just spit balling. I do worry about Patrick's injury history, especially the concussion(s), so that is mostly what informs the idea that he could be traded. Only trade him for something great like Trouba who, while a bit of a douche, is a fantastic hockey player. Even then, asking would be Trouba and a pick or prospect

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Any thoughts on Ghost for RNH ? I'm not in a hurry to trade 53 but if Hayes gives us a reason to boo him for eternity, there needs to be a plan B-E right ?

 

Not sure they want to move him before they have a chance to see what Tippett can do with the team.

 

However I would clearly say no.

 

I would listen for sure.

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Same, was just spit balling. I do worry about Patrick's injury history, especially the concussion(s), so that is mostly what informs the idea that he could be traded. Only trade him for something great like Trouba who, while a bit of a douche, is a fantastic hockey player. Even then, asking would be Trouba and a pick or prospect

 

So just asking here you would trade him for Trouba I understand and I am not saying no entirely but what is the rest of your plan?

 

Reason I am asking is we have added Trouba to a already deep blueline and now have holes at 2nd and 3rd line center along with a hole at 3rd RW.

 

Surely you have more up your sleeve. Right?

[Podein25]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

Surely you have more up your sleeve. Right?

 

Sleeves? Where we're going we don't need no stinking sleeves! LMAO, nope.

 

Who needs centers anyway, overrated prima donnas mostly.

[Clarke2Leach]

15 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Same, was just spit balling. I do worry about Patrick's injury history, especially the concussion(s), so that is mostly what informs the idea that he could be traded. Only trade him for something great like Trouba who, while a bit of a douche, is a fantastic hockey player. Even then, asking would be Trouba and a pick or prospect

One of many conversations about the Jets I have with my boss was about evaluating their defense.  He is not a Trouba fan (but he is a fan of the Jets).  I challenged him on Trouba and he said the next time you watch a Jets game - pay attention to how "well" he passes.  I cannot watch a Jets game without paying special attention to that now and I can say he might be the worst passer on the Jets blueline.  Second worst if Kulikov is playing.  It's really a bit of a curse that I can't not see it anymore.

 

Overall, Trouba seems to belong on the first pair, but I think that may speak more about how special a player Josh Morrissey is.  I hope I'm wrong, but Trouba will probably end up being one of the most overpaid d-men in the league once he signs his new contract wherever that might be.  

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said:

I can say he might be the worst passer on the Jets blueline.  Second worst if Kulikov is playing.  It's really a bit of a curse that I can't not see it anymore.

 

Overall, Trouba seems to belong on the first pair, but I think that may speak more about how special a player Josh Morrissey is.  I hope I'm wrong, but Trouba will probably end up being one of the most overpaid d-men in the league once he signs his new contract wherever that might be.  

 

Lol at the Kulikov joke. You know, you may well be right. He's clearly not a great passer, I will take your word for it. Re: overpaid d-men, there's still lots of competition for that title, I think Trouba will be safe from it. 

 

Re: Morrissey. I see a lot of people saying that, as if Trouba didn't play 3 full seasons in the NHL without Morrissey and made his mark as a very good all round D-man who albeit is a crap passer. 

[radoran]

38 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Well as long as we're discussing then... 19 showed flashes of very ++ play. I can also easily see where if one's watching him in practice and seeing those "flashes" during the games one could think, "he's starting to get it".

 

I've seen the "flashes" (although not the sustained light of Couturier, to continue the comparison).

 

As we've "discussed" I do think he has a chance to be a solid, productive player. It's just that he wasn't ready for the rigors of the NHL schedule or NHL play. Bad call by Ron (as you've noted).

 

The organization has a history of rushing players, expecting too much, and then being "disappointed" (going back at least to Justin Williams). It's part of the general trend of "overvaluing" that they've fallen into on many occasions as well.

 

As with any player - if you can get value and fill a need you consider making the move. I don't think Trouba gets him from me. That's far too much like JVR for Schenn.