TORT Claim

[ruxpin]

15 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

I didn’t realize the exchange rate applied to years.  I thought it was only money. 

it’s *only* been 47 years. 

 

 

 

17185 days since their 1975 Cup.  

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

26 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

17185 days since their 1975 Cup.  

 

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

I didn’t realize the exchange rate applied to years.  I thought it was only money. 

it’s *only* been 47 years. 

 

 

[Captain Lando]

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I'm aware fans want winning and will bandwagon, but that's not my point.

 

My point is that the Flyers WILL NOT GET TO THE WINNING and are sabotaged by an endless state of impatience caused by an endless looping exchange of false, bloated expectation followed by impatience because unrealistic bars and expectations have been set, causing Exodus and/or b###ing by an idiotic fan base who bought the nonsense being sold that "this time!" followed by management tearing down their faux great product and rinse repeat.

 

This is supported by well over a decade of exactly this.  And we are locked in this condition until ownership lowers expectations and builds the right way. And that will be a tough sell because most of the fan base either thinks it's hopeless or is a magical has been coach or player away from it being different this time.

 

"It'll change if we're winning" is proof/symptom of what I'm saying, not a counter to it.

I understand exactly what you are saying and you are correct. There are sadly teams that don't understand what it is to build a sustainable team that can win over a long period of time. This unfortunately leads to a lot of b####ing from the fans and many jump ship, but my question to those fans that say they are jumping ship do they really do so? Or do they just still sit back and b#### and secretly wait and hope the team gets to winning and back they come to the team.

 

I think a fan is someone who goes through the thick and thin with a team and doesn't jump ship no matter if they have a horrible front office who doesn't seem to have much of a plan. No matter how frustrating it is. 

 

I know this sort of thing happens all the time for example in Cleveland after they sucked for many years and the savior Lebron came and they started winning. They he left and it was a mass exodus of fans from the team. You look at a MLB team like the Baltimore Orioles who have sucked for god knows how long and they have a pretty good history way back. They seem to be a pretty good comparison to the Flyers with a front office who don't seem to not know what they are doing. Even here in Denver somewhat in the NFL with Broncos they had a really storied franchise and now it struggles and fans b#### all the time and even some have given up which I think is ridiculous. 

 

I guarantee you if/when the Flyers get back to their winning ways and it will happen. Don't know how long it will take, but the view from the fans will take a 180 and the trucks better start coming into Philly because the fans will be jumping back on the bandwagon so quick they will be filling up fast. 

[ruxpin]

10 minutes ago, Captain Lando said:

I guarantee you if/when the Flyers get back to their winning ways and it will happen. Don't know how long it will take, but the view from the fans will take a 180 and the trucks better start coming into Philly because the fans will be jumping back on the bandwagon so quick they will be filling up fast. 

 

I believe it will happen.  The Black Hawks and their fans are another great example.

 

But it's the bolded in the quote that's the issue.   I'm 53 and ain't gettin' any younger, y'know?

 

Really good post, Mon Capitaine.

Edited June 14, 2022 by ruxpin

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

I didn’t realize the exchange rate applied to years.  I thought it was only money. 

it’s *only* been 47 years. 

 

 

 

I stand corrected. Makes me feel soooooo much better! 

[mojo1917]

Seems we're approaching Leaves® @TropicalFruitGirl26 level futility here.

 

Even though there has been this long championship drought, until the last lockout and new salary cap...(I know, thanks) 

the Flyers were good for most of their history. 

The 80's teams ran into the Gretzky Oilers.

The 90's teams the trap, Scott Stevens and Martin Broduer. 

Those teams won a lot of games were perennially in the top tier of teams in the league. If a team was going to win from the East, they usually had to beat the Flyers somewhere along the way.

I don't count those teams and time as being futile. Sure they didn't win a championship but a healthy player here or lucky bounce there...they could have.

 

It has only been in the last 10 years has rooting for the team felt, futile.

For me it's been since the Pandemic. The Pre-pandemic Vigneault team was pretty good. Beat good teams and had young guys on upwards trajectories. 

 

The flat cap has prevented teams being able to compensate for not having star talent.  There is not really any way to build a team of 4 lines with good players.

The 4 year flat cap has amplified the poor judgement of the Hayes signing. When that contract was signed there was zero inkling the salary cap would not rise.  Yes the contract was too much for too long, but in a few years it wouldn't be so bad, because the cap was going to rise and his contract would be absorbed into the "inflation"; That was the knowledge at the time. 3 years into the cap staying the same ?...his contract has become enemy #1. He hasn't lived up to it and  it is really crippling the team, in world without a pandemic this is a problem, but not as large.

 

People can pooh-pooh this all they like, but we did just lose 1 million Americans to this virus, and it is still costing everyone all the time.

It has affected all facets of American life, people need to come to jesus about this reality, we're not going back to the way things were; so people need to start figuring out how to go forward. Step one for me is trying to find some grace for other people. Hockey is not immune to that reality either.

 

I see @ruxpin and other's points about the team, it does feel hopeless. I'm not giving up yet. 

 

 

[Captain Lando]

14 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I believe it will happen.  The Black Hawks and their fans are another great example.

 

But it's the bolded in the quote that's the issue.   I'm 53 and ain't gettin' any younger, y'know?

 

Really good post, Mon Capitaine.

Plenty of time left in the tank for you to see your club turn things around. It may have to be with other management, but it will happen. 

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Seems we're approaching Leaves® @TropicalFruitGirl26 level futility here.

 

Even though there has been this long championship drought, until the last lockout and new salary cap...(I know, thanks) 

the Flyers were good for most of their history. 

The 80's teams ran into the Gretzky Oilers.

The 90's teams the trap, Scott Stevens and Martin Broduer. 

Those teams won a lot of games were perennially in the top tier of teams in the league. If a team was going to win from the East, they usually had to beat the Flyers somewhere along the way.

I don't count those teams and time as being futile. Sure they didn't win a championship but a healthy player here or lucky bounce there...they could have.

 

 This is very true. There were some great teams in the 80s that just ran into bad luck health-wise and a juggernaut fronted by the best player in the game. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

The flat cap has prevented teams being able to compensate for not having star talent.  There is not really any way to build a team of 4 lines with good players.

The 4 year flat cap has amplified the poor judgement of the Hayes signing. When that contract was signed there was zero inkling the salary cap would not rise.  Yes the contract was too much for too long, but in a few years it wouldn't be so bad, because the cap was going to rise and his contract would be absorbed into the "inflation"; That was the knowledge at the time. 3 years into the cap staying the same ?...his contract has become enemy #1. He hasn't lived up to it and  it is really crippling the team, in world without a pandemic this is a problem, but not as large.

 

 Hayes was a bad signing from day 1. The end. 

 

22 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

People can pooh-pooh this all they like, but we did just lose 1 million Americans to this virus, and it is still costing everyone all the time.

It has affected all facets of American life, people need to come to jesus about this reality, we're not going back to the way things were; so people need to start figuring out how to go forward. Step one for me is trying to find some grace for other people. Hockey is not immune to that reality either.

 

I see @ruxpin and other's points about the team, it does feel hopeless. I'm not giving up yet. 

 

 

 

 Anyone who says they haven't been affected by covid is full of crap. It's still affecting us all...tried buying anything lately? 

 

 I'm not giving up, I just want someone competent running the team. Currently, there isn't anyone. 

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Still believe this organization's incompetence has had Tocchet as their decision LONG before any of these interviews even happened.

 

Sadly I agree with you  .....  I want no part of Tocchet either.  Loved him as a player...don't trust him as a coach because I fear he will be yet another yes man to the FO.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Hayes was a bad signing from day 1. The end.

you saw the tone of that part of the post, yes?

that whole "too much for too long" bit?

Please don't think what I've written is an attempt to talk anyone into changing their minds about that contract.

Or that I thought, this is great! - because I was pretty ambivalent about it.

However, It is not unreasonable to think that with a steadily rising salary cap, that contract wouldn't be as team crippling as it is today.

It would still be "not good", but it wouldn't be "add a pick to get another team to take the player" bad.

 

 

[Captain Lando]

One name I am not seeing mentioned here is Bruce Cassidy. Maybe that is because the organization has yet to interview him or they aren't going to do so which I wouldn't understand. He certainly has been successful and I am wondering what the Philly fan base would think about him becoming the next coach of the Flyers. Would this be a better hiring than either Torts or Trotz?  From what I have heard about Tortz is he wants more involvement with an organization than just being a head coach and Torts well we all know what kind of personality he brings onboard. So Bruce Cassidy and the resume he has does seem really tempting not only for the Flyers, but really for any team looking for a new head coach. 

[SCFlyguy]

20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

However, It is not unreasonable to think that with a steadily rising salary cap, that contract wouldn't be as team crippling as it is today.

Do you buy overpriced stocks thinking the rest of the market will go up thereby making your purchase look less dumb?  Cause that is the argument you are making.

[Captain Lando]

4 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

While I agree with some of what you're saying, all teams have their bandwagon fans, not all fans are the same.  This isn't Pittsburgh, it's Philly.  And, there's a BIG difference.  Not only a difference in the bandwagoners, but a difference in the passion and what's expected from our sports organizations and players.  As always, the corporations here will continue to buy their luxury boxes and club boxes.  And the gullible bandwagoners will jump back on that wagon after a few wins happen.  However, a "180" degree turn is another thing entirely in this city.  That might be hard for some who don't live in this area to understand.  But, it's Philly sports.  And a few wins, simply just making the playoffs, and getting bounced from them won't appease the passion that exists in much of the fanbase living in this area.  Very much of it depends on how they win(not just winning) and how they lose.  And, how this team has been losing lately is a stain that won't be washed away so easily as it might be in other cities.  Maybe that sounds ostentatious.  So be it.  It's how it is in this city.  Not all fans are the same.

You're correct in saying that not every fan base is the same, but every fan should go with the flow of the team and the organization through the thick and the thin. Sure gripe through those horrible times when the team is being F'd up and hope that the owner hears enough of the b####ing that they do something about it. The problem with some organizations is the owners are the problem and there really isn't much that can be done about that because they are the ones that fund the team.

 

The problem that I have though and it seems what you are saying in the Philly area is most fans are the stick to their guns types and if they say they are done with the team they are done. I guess all we can do is sit and wait until the team starts winning consistently and the seats in the arena start to be packed again. Mark my work it will happen again and in Philadelphia and many of those fans that gave up on them in the deepest tough times will be sitting in those seats with a beer in hand rooting them on. 

[mojo1917]

17 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Do you buy overpriced stocks thinking the rest of the market will go up thereby making your purchase look less dumb?  Cause that is the argument you are making.

This is interesting, but it's not really the argument I'm making. 

 

There is not a limit on the top end amount one can spend on stocks.

 

There is a limit to what an NHL team can spend.

 

So, Let's say I'm Comcast Spetacor and I have unlimited money to spend, I could make a bad decision on a stock, but use the vast corporate resources to recoup the losses on a different transaction. 

In the NHL there's a limit to the spend, that limit hasn't effectively changed in what will be 4 years. In July 

The spending limit magnifies the mistake of the bad purchase because it limits the ability to make other transactions.

That is the point I made. 

Your post isn't really an apples to apples comparison.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by mojo1917

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Even though there has been this long championship drought, until the last lockout and new salary cap...(I know, thanks) 

the Flyers were good for most of their history. 

The 80's teams ran into the Gretzky Oilers.

The 90's teams the trap, Scott Stevens and Martin Broduer. 

Those teams won a lot of games were perennially in the top tier of teams in the league. If a team was going to win from the East, they usually had to beat the Flyers somewhere along the way.

I don't count those teams and time as being futile. Sure they didn't win a championship but a healthy player here or lucky bounce there...they could have.

Ive been thinking about the points you bring up here. What is better, having a team make the playoffs for 10 straight years, never winning a SC, or losing 9 out of 10 years, and winning the SC one time?

 

To each their own on the answer.

 

Why are there so many Flyers fans from outside the Philly area? Is it just becasue they won 2 SC's before many, or most were born? Or is because the way they played the game?  For me, it isn't because they won. Looking back over the years, I don't remember what happened in the games where they won the SC. But I remember how they played. Same with the 80 Word Series. I remember the players, and Schmidt being the MVP, but I don't recall all the hits or plays. But I do remember how each Philadelphia championship felt, and where I was when it happened.

 

Funny thing about sports, fans of teams that have had dynasties, probably aren't any more passionate about their teams than those who haven't. I guess they just get to talk more shidt about it

 

[CoachX]

Trotz will want to continue his winning ways, and will sign with a contending team. From what i've read, Cassidy hasnt been interviewed. Torts is wanting back in, and his ego would thrive turning around a franchise like the Flyers

 

it''l be Torts!

 

[SCFlyguy]

20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

So, Let's say I'm Comcast Spetacor and I have unlimited money to spend, I could make a bad decision on a stock, but use the vast corporate resources to recoup the losses on a different transaction. 

In the NHL there's a limit to the spend, that limit hasn't effectively changed in what will be 4 years. In July 

The spending limit magnifies the mistake of the bad purchase because it limits the ability to make other transactions.

That is the point I made. 

Your post isn't really an apples to apples comparison.

If you want to argue that the cap not increasing made an already moronic contract worse, fine, but that seems the tiniest of hills on which to die.

 

But if an organization is making dumb signings hoping they will be less constrained because unpredictable contingencies will magically bail them out, that is a franchise that is going to consistently miss the playoffs due in part to the bad contracts they have signed.  It’s the mentality of a gambler who is already in the hole who thinks their next dumb bet is the one that will save them.

[CoachX]

[Captain Lando]

22 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Sorry.  That's not what I'm saying.  Fans that say they are done with the team when times are tough aren't true fans.  And, for many of them, a few wins are all that's needed to change their tune.  Bandwagon fans are everywhere.  These aren't true fans.

 

What I'm saying, is for those true, passionate fans of this city, a few wins aren't going to be what brings them back to the seats.  Not saying they are saying they are done with the team.  Being unhappy with the team doesn't mean they are done with the team.  Fans like me watch the team even when they're losing like they are presently.  We still care about how they're losing games.  And we care about how the ownership feels about how they're losing their games, and about how incompetent the coaching and front office is.  For many of us, it will take more than just a few wins to get them back to buying tickets to games.  If Comcast were to show these true fans that they are committed to that same passion those fans have, and replaced names like Holmgren, Lombardi, Fletcher, Hanrahan, Flahr with at least a bit of competence into the front office, it means SO MUCH MORE than just a few wins from the players.  Wins are great.  HOW the team wins is MUCH different and MUCH more important here.

 

As a fan who was a season ticket holder for more than 4 decades, lucky enough to see this team win their Cups, simply winning a few games and being bounced in the first round of the playoffs won't be enough to make me purchase tickets again.  And, I know for a fact that I'm not alone in that.  In some cities, yes, a few wins put butts back into the seats.  And, of course, it will put a few butts of those gullible, bandwagon fans here also back into seats.  However, like I said, the way this organization has been losing lately is a stain that won't be simply washed by a few wins for many here.  That doesn't mean they're "done" with the team.  That means they won't be so quick to support the ownership with their hard earned dollar as some fans are.  It's just a different breed of fan in this city.

I agree with you, but those who say they are done with the team and hop right back on really do believe they are true fans of the team. You might know otherwise, but they sure don't.  I also understand that being unhappy with the team and how they are play or how they are being run is a totally different thing. In the end there is only one team that can go home winning. I can bet you if my team, the Colorado Avalanche lose in this Stanley Cup final there will be many fans that gripe and b#### and moan about how the team lost their chance and they will never get over that hump of winning it all with this group of players so why not break up the team. Now as ridiculous as that seems, it will happen. 

 

You also bring up another good point and that is about ticket prices. Most regular people cannot afford these season tickets and especially me and my husband who are only approaching 30. We don't have that sort of money to spare. So most of the people that have these season tickets are older people who can afford it. Many of these older people in these cities with teams like the Flyers have seen the glory teams and now are seeing teams that are failures and have had it with paying for these high priced season tickets. That is why you see the huge drop off in season ticket sales. I suppose it is happening to all teams that are struggling. Put a high quality team on the ice and like the movie 'Field of Dreams' said, " They will come." 

[Captain Lando]

25 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Trotz will want to continue his winning ways, and will sign with a contending team. From what i've read, Cassidy hasnt been interviewed. Torts is wanting back in, and his ego would thrive turning around a franchise like the Flyers

 

it''l be Torts!

 

I agree that Trotz is going somewhere else. My question though was would as a fan of the Flyers would you like to see Cassidy interviewed and what do you think he could bring to the team that may be a Torts could not?

[Podein25]

28 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Trotz will want to continue his winning ways,

 

Plus, a Winnipeg brewery has offered him free beer for life, so that's tough to compete against:

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-brewery-trotz-beer-jets-1.6487616

 

Nevermind, there's another thread on this, I didn't even check

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Podein25

[mojo1917]

32 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

But if an organization is making dumb signings hoping they will be less constrained because unpredictable contingencies will magically bail them out, that is a franchise that is going to consistently miss the playoffs due in part to the bad contracts they have signed.

That hindsight you work with is never wrong.

To the hindsight being 20/15 I'll add, right up until a mistake is realized- it feels like the right thing.

 

When the Hayes deal was signed it wasn't awesome. It was not franchise crippling until now-3 years into little to no cap increase.

COVID hadn't happened. 

COVID changed everything, made good things bad, bad things worse, things people never thought of OMG no toliet paper! are now real concerns.

Pre COVID thinking -Okay Hayes is an overpay but in a few years we can get rid of him if it's not working out, because other dudes with similar skill sets will have signed similar contracts.

That's how markets work.

 

No one save a couple of infectious disease scientists saw a pandemic coming. "Hockey men" were sure as hell not on that tip.

There was no way to know at the time that the crap we are (kind of) surviving was going to happen.

None.

 

It's not the tiniest of hills, It's the ****** hill.

 

I hope the Flyers hire Fonzie or Trotz or the Michelin man. 

I hope whomever lays the ground work that brings the franchise back to relevance.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by mojo1917

[radoran]

52 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

There is not a limit on the top end amount one can spend on stocks.

 

There is a limit to what an NHL team can spend.

 

Well, yes. But Hayes was making 8.7% of the cap the past three years.

 

It's going down to 8.6% next year.

 

Had the cap gone up the ~$2M average over the past three years it would be at ~$87.5M

 

Which would put Hayes at 8.1% of the cap.

 

That .5% isn't nothing but it is about $437K on an $87.5M cap.

 

Add in the "savings" on JVR over time and he'd be at a flat 8% of the cap instead of 8.5%.

 

That's another $437K for $874K in "value" realized over time.

 

That's not exactly franchise-altering cap space.

 

I get the theory and I think they played it well with players like Timonen and Hartnell backinnaday, but they (along with Briere) hit on a lot of FAs that they could simply outbid folks on.

 

Those players don't get to UFA very often and when they do it behooves a club not to be paying ~$7M for a guy who's effectively a third line center or an early thirties 20 goal scoring wing.

 

Hello Filip Gaudreau...

 

I'm watching...

 

[SCFlyguy]

29 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That hindsight you work with is never wrong.

To the hindsight being 20/15 I'll add, right up until a mistake is realized- it feels like the right thing.

It wasn’t hindsight.  The Hayes signing was so dumb it made me sign up and post here to complain after lurking for years.  So that’s another thing you can blame on Hayes.

 

32 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

When the Hayes deal was signed it wasn't awesome. It was not franchise crippling until now-3 years into little to no cap increase.

Why are you trying to minimize how dumb his contract is by saying it “wasn’t awesome” (understatement of the year) or was only dumb because the cap didn’t go up?

 

Plenty of people here said it was dumb when it was signed and would only look worse in the future and that is exactly what has happened.  It’s a shame none of those people worked for the Flyers.

 

Again, signing guys to even “not great contracts” then hoping you get bailed out (whether by the cap going up or the player outperforming his previous production) is going to put that team behind other teams that don’t do that as much when all teams are capped and have limited amounts to spend.

[SCFlyguy]

It’s not like the Flyers’ cap stayed the same while all the other teams’ caps went up.  They all have the same amount to spend - don’t spend it foolishly and you should be in a better spot than teams that do!