Flyers 2023 Entry Level Draft - 7th overall (confirmed)

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, icehole said:

You CANT win a cup without a top 3 player. I'm too lazy to look it up, so I hope someone can tell me the last time a team won a cup without a top 3 pick.

 

You might be right but also it doesn't mean you will either if you do get those top picks see the Oilers and Sabres of the last 15 years...but it takes some good damn drafting combined with the right mix of vets....and some luck too.

[icehole]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

You might be right but also it doesn't mean you will either if you do get those top picks see the Oilers and Sabres of the last 15 years...but it takes some good damn drafting combined with the right mix of vets....and some luck too.

I think the oilers are getting closer. The Sabres were never able to pick the right guys...sort of like the flyers.

I told my brother about 3/4 through the season that the Bruins will not make the finals. I knew this because they don't have the right formula. I was second guessing myself after 130 points, but it played out even better than I thought.

If you could trade the 2023 flyers for any 2023 NHL team, would you choose the bruins or the Blackhawks. I would choose the Hawks. I believe the excitement of a generational talent plus building a team from the ground up is more exciting than having Bergeron and Marchand and Hall. I like Pasta but I don't think they can build around him like teams build around McDavid or Matthews or Crosby or Ovie or Kane.

 

[albertaflyer]

3 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Conspiracy talk fits a loser franchise.

 

"We would have won the lottery, but it's fixed".

 

"We would have won but the refs were against us."

 

"We would have won a Cup, but our goaltending."

 

Chicago played the game the Flyers and their fans wouldn't.  We'll see what they have won in a couple years.

 

I'm betting they're better than the Flyers inside of two years.  Everyone will point to the lottery, but as I posted a couple weeks ago, they have tons of assets coming and their cap situation will be all fixed by the time they arrive.  They are swollowing their medicine, while the Flyers, like a freaking baby, are trying to spit theirs out.

Not sure if watched much of the Blackhawk’s games this year but they are literally one of the worst teams I’ve seen play. It’s a toss up between them Anaheim. They are a long way away from being good again.  Bedard will help but they have a long way to go.

[mojo1917]

22 minutes ago, icehole said:

I love Laughton, but you're proving my point. He's a fine player for where he was picked. So is TK and Provorov and Couturier. They don't win cups though.

Your point saying high end talent is needed to win in the league today is spot on. 

I don't think I'm proving anything to be fair.

Couturier is a #8, Provorov a #7, TK a #24

 

Engaged Travis Konecny outperforms his draft position by quite a bit. Other Travis Konecny is *fine. 

The difference in talent between top 10 and top 20 draft positions varies by year (obviously) but the talent gap is usually pretty significant. Top 10s are can't miss guys, top 20s have some flaws.

 

I took your comment on Laughton to mean he was hyped to be something he's not, I don't think that's accurate.

I don't think anyone thought Laughton was going to be as good as Couturier. 

#7 picks win championships, see Kadri, Nazim.  

 

When I watch the teams that are left, the Flyers have a long way to go and need to look for guys with great puck skills and skating.

The power play and pk units of these teams are a pleasure to watch.

The Flyers have like 2 guys that have the mitts 2 guys with the footspeed and no guys with footspeed and mitts, compared to say the Oil's top 5 PP skaters. 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Your point saying high end talent is needed to win in the league today is spot on. 

I don't think I'm proving anything to be fair.

Couturier is a #8, Provorov a #7, TK a #24

 

Engaged Travis Konecny outperforms his draft position by quite a bit. Other Travis Konecny is *fine. 

The difference in talent between top 10 and top 20 draft positions varies by year (obviously) but the talent gap is usually pretty significant. Top 10s are can't miss guys, top 20s have some flaws.

 

I took your comment on Laughton to mean he was hyped to be something he's not, I don't think that's accurate.

I don't think anyone thought Laughton was going to be as good as Couturier. 

#7 picks win championships, see Kadri, Nazim.  

 

When I watch the teams that are left, the Flyers have a long way to go and need to look for guys with great puck skills and skating.

The power play and pk units of these teams are a pleasure to watch.

The Flyers have like 2 guys that have the mitts 2 guys with the footspeed and no guys with footspeed and mitts, compared to say the Oil's top 5 PP skaters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cheesesteak]

12 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

HARD to go wrong, not impossible. 

At least Chuck Taylor is gone....so we got that going for us. 

 

[radoran]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

 

They had a 1 in four chance and conversely 3 out of four times they would lose.

 

They lost.

 

It's called probability.

 

If you were going to put money down, where do you bet?

 

Flyers win a 1 in 4 or Flyers lose 3 in 4?

 

It's why you don't "tank".

Edited May 9, 2023 by radoran

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

They had a 1 in four chance and conversely 3 out of four times they would lose.

 

They lost.

 

It's called probability.

 

If you were going to put money down, where do you bet?

 

Flyers win a 1 in 4 or Flyers lose 3 in 4?

 

It's why you don't "tank".

 

As a rule a of thumb I learned a long time ago I never put money on my team no matter what on anything - it only ever served as a jinx.

[OccamsRazor]

23 hours ago, radoran said:

It's why you don't "tank".

 

I agree doesn't matter they can't even if they tried.

 

However I sure hope they do a better job building around this 7th pick than they did their last 7th overall pick - the one they want to trade now...Ivan Provorov.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by OccamsRazor

[FD19372]

Let the failed push for Macklin Celebrini, begin!  I am so furious at this organization for not tanking, that I have no words. At least make it more difficult, for Bettman and Company, to rig it.

[radoran]

50 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

As a rule a of thumb I learned a long time ago I never put money on my team no matter what on anything - it only ever served as a jinx.

 

Yeah, I don't either and rarely gamble, but I know that 3 out of 4 is a better bet than 1 out of 4.

 

And I'm not convinced the house is "cheating" when I don't hit my roulette number.

 

It's a bad look for the league to have NJ NY Chicago getting high picks. You'd think it was fixed.

 

Except for all the high picks that have gone to Edmonton, Picksburg, and Buffalo.

 

The real story is that the Flyers - like many NHL teams - are happy being "competitive" and "playing for the playoffs."

 

You can see a similar discussion over on the Wild forums...

Edited May 9, 2023 by radoran

[FD19372]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

The real story is that the Flyers - like many NHL teams - are happy being "competitive" and "playing for the playoffs."

This is true. They consider the playoffs some kind of "crapshoot", where anyone can win. "Anything can happen, when you get there". The problem has always been, that the organization rewards mediocrity at best, lives in the past and doesn't adjust to the times. They have done this, for FAR too long. Flyer Club Med. They are content with being average, as long as they don't have to flex, and do things other than their own "traditional" way. 

[radoran]

58 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

They consider the playoffs some kind of "crapshoot", where anyone can win. "Anything can happen, when you get there".

 

The issue is that there is a kernel of truth to it. Surprising teams do win a round or two here and there.

 

A team that gets in on the last day of the season winning a shootout find themselves in the Cup Final.

 

It happens. Sometimes.

 

But those teams even more rarely win.

 

Especially in today's league.

 

Playing for the exception gets you a middling bubble playoff team. A mid round selection. A chance at some playoff gate revenue. And a "good sign" to build on because you lost to a Cup Finalist.

 

And 48 years later here we are.

[FD19372]

18 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The issue is that there is a kernel of truth to it. Surprising teams do win a round or two here and there.

 

A team that gets in on the last day of the season winning a shootout find themselves in the Cup Final.

 

It happens. Sometimes.

 

But those teams even more rarely win.

 

Especially in today's league.

 

Playing for the exception gets you a middling bubble playoff team. A mid round selection. A chance at some playoff gate revenue. And a "good sign" to build on because you lost to a Cup Finalist.

 

And 48 years later here we are.

Yes. It gets us not winning a playoff round, then having a 2012 miracle. Then, not winning a round in the playoffs, for over five years. 

 

It is always better to suck one year, bottom out with the worst record in the league, and vie for the top pick..than being stuck in the middle of eternal, perpetual mediocrity. It frustrates the hell out of me that this beyond stupid organization, went out and hired Tortorella and tried to compete for a playoff spot, with this highly flawed roster. This roster had the ability to hit rock bottom this season, and they blew it. They could have so easily GUARANTEED themselves a top 3 pick. Old guard, institutional Flyers organization garbage. They could have just promoted someone within, or brought in someone way over their head, to coach. They have the same damn tunnel vision, that they did when Ed Snider was alive. Only..it's now even worse. 

[FD19372]

One more thing.. sell the damn team.

[GrittyForever]

9 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

One more thing.. sell the damn team.

Ya, Snoop Dogg and Ryan Reynolds are fighting it out to buy Ottawa. Talk to whichever group loses that bid. 

[icehole]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Your point saying high end talent is needed to win in the league today is spot on. 

I don't think I'm proving anything to be fair.

Couturier is a #8, Provorov a #7, TK a #24

 

Engaged Travis Konecny outperforms his draft position by quite a bit. Other Travis Konecny is *fine. 

The difference in talent between top 10 and top 20 draft positions varies by year (obviously) but the talent gap is usually pretty significant. Top 10s are can't miss guys, top 20s have some flaws.

 

I took your comment on Laughton to mean he was hyped to be something he's not, I don't think that's accurate.

I don't think anyone thought Laughton was going to be as good as Couturier. 

#7 picks win championships, see Kadri, Nazim.  

 

When I watch the teams that are left, the Flyers have a long way to go and need to look for guys with great puck skills and skating.

The power play and pk units of these teams are a pleasure to watch.

The Flyers have like 2 guys that have the mitts 2 guys with the footspeed and no guys with footspeed and mitts, compared to say the Oil's top 5 PP skaters. 

 

 

 

I see Kadri, Nazim playing with Mackinnon (1), Gabe Landekog (2), and Cal Makar (4).

 

So I did the research and found that Stl in 2019 only had Schenn who was a number 5 pick and he was on his 3rd team. They were also a lightning in a bottle team. Tampa had Stamkos (1) and Headman (2). Washington had Ovie (1). Pitt had Crosby (1) and Malkin (2) and other higher than 5 picks. Chicago had Kane (1) and Toews (3). LA had Doughty (2). Boston had Seguin (2). Detroit in 08 didn't have any top 5s. Anaheim had Neidemeir (3) and Perry (2). Carolina had Staal (2). Tampa had VLC (1). 

Those are the last 20 cup winners. Only 2 teams had players that were picked higher than 2nd.

[mojo1917]

@icehole

I knew as soon as I typed Kadri-  that it was a strawman argument, he didn't sniff the cup with Marner and Matthews (two really high picks) but that Avalanche team was a wagon, they could have won with any number of guys playing the Kadri role.

 

I liked the makeup of that St Louis team.

They rode a hot goalie to the cup, but that was a well-balanced team that played hard and could have been in contention for a little longer had they kept Pietrangelo around.

I think more than anything finding that #1 defenseman is the key.

You mentioned Makar, Doughty, Hedman, Niedermyer and the no #1 Detroit team which had the greatest defenseman to play hockey not named Orr (Lidstrom) on it.

 

Maybe there is a stud D in this draft to build around or a prospect to trade for. 

It doesn't appear as though the Flyers will get a #1 overall anytime soon, unless Daniel reneges on his 'no firesale" quote, even then the odd aren't really in their favor.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Yeah, I don't either and rarely gamble, but I know that 3 out of 4 is a better bet than 1 out of 4.

 

And I'm not convinced the house is "cheating" when I don't hit my roulette number.

 

It's a bad look for the league to have NJ NY Chicago getting high picks. You'd think it was fixed.

 

Except for all the high picks that have gone to Edmonton, Picksburg, and Buffalo.

 

The real story is that the Flyers - like many NHL teams - are happy being "competitive" and "playing for the playoffs."

 

You can see a similar discussion over on the Wild forums...

 

 

And at the end of the day it does you no good - they ain't changing anything or investigating or even a do over it is what it is....they lost out - move on and no need to talk about it anymore i my eyes.

 

Take your 7th and try to keep the rebuild moving forward all they can do.

 

I was pissed but kind of knew it was in the cards....Nolan Patrick at this point just feels like a cruel hard joke from God...but if i get to see one Stanley Cup win in my lifetime...

[Howie58]

I posted another thread on the topic.  The question may be whether the Kraken are a new form of architecture for the league.  They have no real "superstars" but they do have a distributed talent pool that is fast and beats other defenses.

 

Could the Flyers engineer that kind of build? I doubt it.  I recall Edmonton had years of good picks and went nowhere for a long time.  Buffalo may be pulling out of a funk.  If Briere traded down to 10 and got another high second, I'd say fine.....assuming they could pick some good folks.  I am not sure that happens with this team.  And as others have said many times, Torts was the wrong dude to pick if you wanted several lousy years in a row.  He will coach respectability out of garbage.  But the faithful shouldn't worry.  We have another few years of mediocrity ahead, especially if Danny trades away our competent players for picks or prospects. 

[flyercanuck]

5 hours ago, icehole said:

I'm not looking for a quick turnaround. I actually don't even think Chicago will have a quick turnaround. This is what I see as the best scenario.

 

 I'm not looking for a quick turnaround. We just have to pray the idiots that are STILL there aren't...cause they always are and it never works.

 

5 hours ago, icehole said:

It looks like they hit on the #5 pick.

 

 They would have hit better if they'd have taken Jiricek. But I guess with Fletcher I should just be happy he didn't trade it for nothing.

 

5 hours ago, icehole said:

 

Let's say they hit on the #7 pick. They have a few young stars on the team already. So logic tells us they'll be slightly better next year. So let's say they hit on the 12th pick next draft.

The year after that, they're making the playoffs.

 

 Playoffs? Christ I'm hoping they're trading off vets and stockpiling draft picks.

 

5 hours ago, icehole said:

 

 Their ceiling is winning one or two rounds. At that point, the teams with the first second or third picks will pass them.

You CANT win a cup without a top 3 player. I'm too lazy to look it up, so I hope someone can tell me the last time a team won a cup without a top 3 pick.

 

St Louis won in 2019 with no top 3, but it's definitely a rarity. I can't imagine whoever our number 1 centre is , what 3 years, in the playoffs going head to head with McDavid, or MacKinnon, or Bedard, or Barkov, or Matthews, or Point/Stamkos, or Hughes, or ......

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Could the Flyers engineer that kind of build?

 

A build where you get to pick one from 3/4 of each of other team's rosters?

 

No.

 

Hard to get that done.

 

Apparently can work well though.

 

Although neither Vegas nor Seattle has actually won a Cup yet...

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by radoran

[icehole]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

St Louis won in 2019 with no top 3, but it's definitely a rarity. I can't imagine whoever our number 1 centre is , what 3 years, in the playoffs going head to head with McDavid, or MacKinnon, or Bedard, or Barkov, or Matthews, or Point/Stamkos, or Hughes, or ......

You would think its a rarity, but it's closer to a miracle. I couldn't believe it when I looked it up. 18 out of the last 20 cup winners had a 1st or 2nd pick. Some had both. Some had 1 and 3.

 

It's hard to see a bright future when picking 5 and 7. Maybe they can be the team that changes the trend, but it's not too promising. 

[pilldoc]

3 minutes ago, icehole said:

You would think its a rarity, but it's closer to a miracle. I couldn't believe it when I looked it up. 18 out of the last 20 cup winners had a 1st or 2nd pick. Some had both. Some had 1 and 3.

 

Totally agree ...had a running argument/disagreement with myself and @radoran against another poster on here who simply could not fathom that fact.  This individual insisted one could have yearly playoff runs WITHOUT having a top 5 pick on the roster.  Despite the evidence both @radoran and myself presented this individual failed to comprehend this point.  Simply put, having a game changer like a Barkov / Crosby KAen / Toews significantly increases your chance of continued playoff success.

[flyercanuck]

30 minutes ago, icehole said:

You would think its a rarity, but it's closer to a miracle. I couldn't believe it when I looked it up. 18 out of the last 20 cup winners had a 1st or 2nd pick. Some had both. Some had 1 and 3.

 

It's hard to see a bright future when picking 5 and 7. Maybe they can be the team that changes the trend, but it's not too promising. 

 

It's especially hard when there's a likely #1 defenceman sitting right there for the taking and your idiot GM takes a winger. A few years before there's 3 good wingers sitting there and he takes a defenceman. 

 

I swear Flyers upper management think they're smarter than everyone else, and just keep proving they're dumber than everyone else.