Shero vs Holmgren

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

When your choice is between Crosby and Malkin or Yakupov and Nugent Hopkins whats the choice? I'd rather have ONE of the Pens players than both those Oilers. Is Hall. pr RNH or Yakupov generational talent? Hardly.

[flyercanuck]

.

It wasn't getting so many top 5 picks that helped the Pens. It was the talent that was out there when they did have them.

Bingo! And it was really only two of those top 5 picks. Fleury is ok, but on a redo of the 2003 draft he'd go around 12th probably. Staal is good, but he's no superstar. Same with Whitney.

[B21]

Bingo! And it was really only two of those top 5 picks. Fleury is ok, but on a redo of the 2003 draft he'd go around 12th probably. Staal is good, but he's no superstar. Same with Whitney.

Well, duh. I never disputed that. My only point is that with Shero's track record one can easily argue that the Pens would still be among the handful of teams in the running for a Cup each year.

Quick. Name the last "bad" move Shero made? Or Shero's last "bad" draft?

[Poulin20]

It wasn't getting so many top 5 picks that helped the Pens. It was the talent that was out there when they did have them.

Exactly....The Pens seem to have this knack for sucking at the right times. (e.g. Lemeuix, Crosby, Malkin). Our worst year in our history we end up losing the lottery, drafting the immortal JVR and watching the guy who was drafted #1 score the Cup winning goal in OT on us.

Then when the Flyers seem to be good we run into these Dynastys such as Edmonton in the 1980s (which is why my avatar is celebrating a Prince of Wales trophy win) or Detroit in the 1990s.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Poulin20

[flyercanuck]

@B21

I'm not up on all his moves. Esposito was a bust. Is Kunitz worth a #2 overall? Again I'm not saying Shero is bad, he's good. He looks a lot better starting out with what he had though.

And without Crosby and Malkin, you're not getting Morrow and Iginla. You'd still be a decent team. But not a contender.

Look at it this way...Shero took over a team that had 5 top 5 picks. Holmgren manages a team that has picked top 5 THREE times in it's history, and twice they had to trade for those picks. It's easier to fill in the Kunitz', Dupuis' Hartnells and Reads of the NHL. It's another thing to acquire the Crosbys, Malkins or Girouxs.

Edited March 29, 2013 by flyercanuck

[B21]

Exactly....The Pens seem to have this knack for sucking at the right times. (e.g. Lemeuix, Crosby, Malkin). Our worst year in our history we end up losing the lottery, drafting the immortal JVR and watching the guy who was drafted #1 score the Cup winning goal in OT on us.

Then when the Flyers seem to be good we run into these Dynastys such as Edmonton in the 1980s (which is why my avatar is celebrating a Prince of Wales trophy win) or Detroit in the 1990s.

Well we all know they sucked on purpose to get Mario. They just plain sucked for real when it was time for Malkin and Crosby to be drafted. Heck, even not winning the lottery has helped them. Think anyone takes OV over Malkin knowing what they know now?

[CoachX]

a big difference between us and the pens - crosby aside - is the GM.

if the flyers were in the hunt for Iggy what would Gomer have offered up? 3 firsts, Giroux, Timo and a zamboni driver.

Shero acquired morrow, murphy and iggy and gave up very little; in fact, he kept his top prospects. had Gomer been their GM, crosby would be gone along with malkin.

as long as they have shero and we have gomer, we will always be chasing the pens. it's that simple.

Two Words .... Ed Snider

[B21]

@flyercanuck

<< I'm not up on all his moves. Esposito was a bust. Is Kunitz worth a #2 overall? Again I'm not saying Shero is bad, he's good. He looks a lot better starting out with what he had though. >>

Still with a guy's draft position having an impact on what one gets in return? No - Kunitz is not worth a #2. He did turn out to be worth more than what Ryan Whitney actually panned out to be. That's like killing the JVR/Schenn trade because JVR was picked #2 overall and Schenn is not worth a #2. Not the rationale I use.

<< And without Crosby and Malkin, you're not getting Morrow and Iginla. You'd still be a decent team. But not a contender. >>

Depends on the vantage point. The team as it stands right now was a contender even without those deals. Those deals made them favorites.

<< Look at it this way...Shero took over a team that had 5 top 5 picks. Holmgren manages a team that has picked top 5 THREE times in it's history, and twice they had to trade for those picks. It's easier to fill in the Kunitz', Dupuis' Hartnells and Reads of the NHL. It's another thing to acquire the Crosbys, Malkins or Girouxs. >>

Fair. But Holmgren has only himself to blame as far as the current state of the Flyers. Imagine what he'd be able to do with this team sans Bryzgalov and Pronger? Or next year sans Bryzgalov, Pronger and Timonen.

Shero does not (at least not yet) make those kind of mistakes.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

He doesn't have to. He has Crosby and Malkin..

It's like New England in football. They don't need to overpay Wes Walker. They have Tom Brady. He can make almost anyone with hands look great. But if you don't have a quarterback of that cailbre, you're chasing the dragon trying to make up ground.

All I'm saying is, Holmgren would look a lot better if those two Pens fell into his lap. And Shero would look a lot worse if they hadn't.

[B21]

@B21

He doesn't have to. He has Crosby and Malkin..

It's like New England in football. They don't need to overpay Wes Walker. They have Tom Brady. He can make almost anyone with hands look great. But if you don't have a quarterback of that cailbre, you're chasing the dragon trying to make up ground.

All I'm saying is, Holmgren would look a lot better if those two Pens fell into his lap. And Shero would look a lot worse if they hadn't.

Last point conceded.

But Danny Amendola does say 'hello'....

[dilbert719]

Fair. But Holmgren has only himself to blame as far as the current state of the Flyers. ... Bryzgalov and Pronger...

Unless I'm missing something, the Bryzgalov signing was an ownership mandate, not Holmgren's decision, so I don't see where he should take blame for that. I'll grant you the botching of the Pronger contract, but acquiring Pronger the player was the right call, and he probably still would be quite good if his eggs didn't get so thoroughly scrambled.

Homer has been a very good GM, by and large, and he's had a lot less to work with than Shero. Doesn't mean Shero's not good at what he does, and it doesn't necessarily mean Homer's better than he is, but it does make it hard to compare the two.

[Bakanekimiwa]

*grunch*

i think it's pretty obvious, or it should be, to even the most biased fans that Shero has GM'd circles around Homer and co. I hate the pens... boy do i, more than any other team in the league. However, you can't help but be jealous of what Shero has accomplished over there. He's 'all in' this year and I can only sit back and actually admire what he's been able to accomplish.

Sure they'll have salary cap troubles in the future.. just like every other team in the league.

[B21]

Unless I'm missing something, the Bryzgalov signing was an ownership mandate, not Holmgren's decision, so I don't see where he should take blame for that. I'll grant you the botching of the Pronger contract, but acquiring Pronger the player was the right call, and he probably still would be quite good if his eggs didn't get so thoroughly scrambled.

Homer has been a very good GM, by and large, and he's had a lot less to work with than Shero. Doesn't mean Shero's not good at what he does, and it doesn't necessarily mean Homer's better than he is, but it does make it hard to compare the two.

Re: Bryz. Maybe. Maybe not. If the GM does not have final say on personnel then that's a pretty dysfunctional organization to being with. Flyer fans would know better that a fan from another team but from the "non-Flyer" persepctive, Holmgren is the GM so gets the credit for the good moves and blame for the bad ones.

Agree on Pronger the player and Pronger the contract...but both still fall to the GM. Credit for the player. Blame for the contact. And in a salary cap world, sometimes the contract aspect is as equal or even more important that the player aspect.

[B21]

@Bakanekimiwa

Sure they'll have salary cap troubles in the future.. just like every other team in the league.

Or not. Staal was supposed to cause cap "problems". I'd say that worked out well. Next cap problems up are Letang and/or Malkin. With the current roster, they won't be able to afford both in 2014 assuming Malkin gets an offer equal to Crosby and Letang is looking for $6 million to $7 million per.

So Letang gets dealt for picks/prospects and next crop of defencemen step in. Or maybe a Paul Martin gets dealt and his $5,000,000 hit goes to Letang's raise and the salary of his (Martin's replacement).

I think this is where Shero is way ahead of Holgren. I mean...Laughton over Maatta when you already have a solid crop of young forwards but have needs on the blue line?

[Bakanekimiwa]

@Bakanekimiwa

Sure they'll have salary cap troubles in the future.. just like every other team in the league.

Or not. Staal was supposed to cause cap "problems". I'd say that worked out well. Next cap problems up are Letang and/or Malkin. With the current roster, they won't be able to afford both in 2014 assuming Malkin gets an offer equal to Crosby and Letang is looking for $6 million to $7 million per.

So Letang gets dealt for picks/prospects and next crop of defencemen step in. Or maybe a Paul Martin gets dealt and his $5,000,000 hit goes to Letang's raise and the salary of his (Martin's replacement).

I think this is where Shero is way ahead of Holgren. I mean...Laughton over Maatta when you already have a solid crop of young forwards but have needs on the blue line?

I just kinda meant that in the generic way of the fact that ALL teams will have cap problems. The cap inherently creates problems that every team has to deal with. I didn't mean that they specifically have any more problems than anyone else in the league.

Flyers will surely have their share next year and I think I'd gladly take Pitt's particular set of cap problems over ours any day. The next few years are going to be rough ones for our Fly guys.

[nossagog]

Well we all know they sucked on purpose to get Mario. They just plain sucked for real when it was time for Malkin and Crosby to be drafted. Heck, even not winning the lottery has helped them. Think anyone takes OV over Malkin knowing what they know now?

The whole we tanked for Mario thing still kills me. Look, I'll give you and idea of how old I am, I had partial season tickets in the three years leadup to Mario coming, and sadly moved out of town in 1985. 5th row up from the ice in the corner where the Pens shot twice, $12/game. I was there, we simply sucked. The Pens would always have one or two decent players, and the rest were fringe. Rick Kehoe, Mike Bullard and Randy Carlyle, I felt sorry for those guys because they played their hearts out every game, they weren't tanking.

[pilldoc]

@Bakanekimiwa

I mean...Laughton over Maatta when you already have a solid crop of young forwards but have needs on the blue line?

sure keep rubbing it in! All the Flyers faithfull know this was a bonehead move. Now Laughton may very well work out, but c'mon, Maatta was there for the picking........

[mojo1917]

Laughton will play in the NHL, Maata may be a 2nd pairing guy or .... i don't know, maybe he'll be a 6-7 which would not be what the flyers need anyway.

I'm not going to kill Homer over that move, Maata is a solid prospect but he's not going to be a top pairing guy at least according to the reports i've read, the guy we need on the blue line is doug hamilton , tyler myers oliver eckman-larrsson or that larsson kid from NJ, those are top pairing ceiling guys . There was a reason Maata was still on the board at 22 or 23 or whenever we picked .

and that's not to discount how nice it would be to have depth on the blueline, to me the need is for the cornerstone player not Braydon Coburn (in a good year)

[Polaris922]

Shero > Holmgren by a long shot... Sorry guys but you're going nowhere, generational talents or not, as long as this guy is calling your shots. Repeatedly overpaid, repeatedly over compensating long term handcuffing deals with NMC's, panic signings, missed opportunities, forcing other GM's hands... He's never going to build you a Cup winner unless the rest of us just run out of money.

[brelic]

Laughton will play in the NHL, Maata may be a 2nd pairing guy or .... i don't know, maybe he'll be a 6-7 which would not be what the flyers need anyway.

I'm not going to kill Homer over that move, Maata is a solid prospect but he's not going to be a top pairing guy at least according to the reports i've read, the guy we need on the blue line is doug hamilton , tyler myers oliver eckman-larrsson or that larsson kid from NJ, those are top pairing ceiling guys . There was a reason Maata was still on the board at 22 or 23 or whenever we picked .

Hamilton was there for the plucking too. I know... hindsight and all. But the fact is that we did not need another centerman, yet we drafted one anyway. What we did need was a top flight defenseman to replace our aging blueline (that at the time, included Pronger).

Not for nothing, but Hamilton has twice as many points (14) as Couturier, and would easily eclipse Couturier's rookie season total if this were an 82 game season.

I have confidence that Couturier will eventually be a very good player in the NHL, but the point that we all know is that he's not what we need(ed).

[flyercanuck]

@nossagog

No mention of local guy (local here) Doug Shedden? He was your best player the year before Mario got there if I recall, And used to give us free tickets when the Pens came to T.O. Jim Hamilton too.

Edited March 29, 2013 by flyercanuck

[flyercanuck]

Shero > Holmgren by a long shot... Sorry guys but you're going nowhere, generational talents or not, as long as this guy is calling your shots. Repeatedly overpaid, repeatedly over compensating long term handcuffing deals with NMC's, panic signings, missed opportunities, forcing other GM's hands... He's never going to build you a Cup winner unless the rest of us just run out of money.

You can say what you want. Without Crosby and Malkin, Shero ain't winning squat. Give Holmgren those two and we win against Chicago.

[Polaris922]

You can say what you want. Without Crosby and Malkin, Shero ain't winning squat. Give Holmgren those two and we win against Chicago.

I can't believe in the current state of your team you're even thinking Holmgren is in the same league as Shero. Shero has done better with his throw ins on trades that Holmgren has done in free agency or trades. Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen anyone?

Hey I'm all for being a die hard fan, but this is pure homerism at this point. Yes Shero had some higher pucks to benefit from but again. Malkin/Crosby don't win a Cup on their own. Shero has done so much with and around these players it's ridiculous. He steals talent from other teams, got great return for Staal when HIS hands were even more tied than Feaster's... Dupuis as a toss in with Hossa?? Dupuis is outplaying Giroux this year. Hello??

That you hold on to the Crosby/Malkin point as the ONLY true negative on Shero tells the story. He had it easy with them? That's funny... No don't remember Lindros/LeClaire winning any Cups and they were no slouches in talent.

Your support for Holmgren is touching... It's WHAT you're touching that has me worried

[toughfighter83]

I can't believe in the current state of your team you're even thinking Holmgren is in the same league as Shero. Shero has done better with his throw ins on trades that Holmgren has done in free agency or trades. Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen anyone?

Hey I'm all for being a die hard fan, but this is pure homerism at this point. Yes Shero had some higher pucks to benefit from but again. Malkin/Crosby don't win a Cup on their own. Shero has done so much with and around these players it's ridiculous. He steals talent from other teams, got great return for Staal when HIS hands were even more tied than Feaster's... Dupuis as a toss in with Hossa?? Dupuis is outplaying Giroux this year. Hello??

That you hold on to the Crosby/Malkin point as the ONLY true negative on Shero tells the story. He had it easy with them? That's funny... No don't remember Lindros/LeClaire winning any Cups and they were no slouches in talent.

Your support for Holmgren is touching... It's WHAT you're touching that has me worried

im not homer supporter at all, im a flyers fan but homer is idiot for getting rid of talent from the 2010 season and got back trash, that's not what a good gm does. good gms get equal talent back not getting rid of it for nothing. that's what homer did and that's why the flyers are an embarrassment.

Edited March 29, 2013 by toughfighter83

[Philly29]

The trade for Eminger still haunts me....it literaly makes me sick to my stomach....God Carlson would of made a big difference on this D.....

Also flyercanuck your my hero seriously....one day I hope I have the Flyer knowledge you have dude. Mow the pens fans down with ease BRA!

Edited March 29, 2013 by Philly29