Bernier might now cost us Couturier

[dilbert719]

When have we seen a reclamation project from any team become a franchise goalie?

I'm not old enough to have seen it, but stats suggest Bernie Parent. Check his Boston statistics, then what he did in Philly.

[ruxpin]

Lavy is the second longest tenured Flyers coach, but has had how many goalies now? I'm not going anywhere near a guarantee for a goalies length of stay in Philly, unless they win the Vezina, Conn Smythe, or Cup.

Brian Boucher

Ray Emery (lost to injury after 27 games)

Michael Leighton

Johan Backlund (1 game)

Jeremy Duschesne (1 game)

Sergei Bobrovsky

Ilya Bryzgalov

Steve Mason (7 games)

I know you said "goalies" so I kind of feel badly including some of these, but the answer is 8.

Michael Leighton, Brian Boucher, Johan Backlund, and Jeremy Duschesne didn't not succeed because of Lavy. In fact, it's arguable that Leighton played better than could have been reasonably expected from a plumber with pads while playing for Lavy. These four didn't succeed because three of them are flat out lousy goalies and the fourth (Boucher) is well-past his prime and should have hung them up several years ago. Emery had a season-ending injury. That's not Lavy either. And Mason just got here.

So we're left with Bob and Bryz. You can hang Bob on Lavy. It doesn't necessarily have to be Lavy's fault, but I think it's a justifiable argument. I think he really screwed him in his rookie year and the kid never really got another chance. In Lavy's defense, every time Bob was given the reigns as a starter he ultimately failed. In retrospect, maybe it was just the growing pains of a rookie. I'll hang it on Lavy given the benefit of hindsight.

I suppose we can put Bryz on Lavy's system, but I just think it turns out he's lousy.

[ruxpin]

it's your delusional thinking that this year was the flyers cup contender, that's the only reason why you want gone because he was the reason why the flyers didnt go into the playoffs, that's not why, it's because mez was injuried, they lost pronger, jagr, plus it was lav's coaching as well. i mean i dont know how the fans and media are thinking this team was a contender to begin with, when they lost pronger and jagr. it wasnt possible. i didnt expect them to go to the playoffs, when you lose good players, it's hard to be a contender when you are putting the pressure on giroux and bryz and they crumbled.

Do you ever say anything different? You're a broken record that wasn't very interesting before it "broke." You completely miss the point and have failed for two months to respond to a thing anyone has replied to you with. FOR THE 47 THOUSANDTH TIME: NO ONE IS OR WAS SAYING THIS WAS A CUP CONTENDER OR THAT IT WAS ALL BRYZ'S FAULT. We are, however, saying he sucked vs. his salary and to try to do what is necessary to fix the other issues the team has the organization needs some cap room. The easiest,, quickest way to get that cap room is to jettison the deadweight that is not only lousy in goal but is also apparently a cancer in the locker room.

What is so hard for you to understand??

[ruxpin]

i mean no one is giving a reasonable response on why he will be a good goalie

Would you know a reasonable response if you saw one? Seriously? You have yet, despite months of begging, provided one damn reasonable response as to how or why or on what planet Bryz IS a good goalie. I know it's difficult since THERE ISN'T one. But you have a lot of ovary juice to come on here and challenge even a sock puppet to come up with a reasonable anything when you haven't displayed the ability to either provide one nor understand one since you've been here.

[hf101]

Mason to me is a reclamation project here just like Emery was. I don't like how we bring in these guys hoping they turn it around somehow. When have we seen a reclamation project from any team become a franchise goalie? I do hope I'm wrong but I doubt Mason will be one, he looks to me like a inconsistent goalie and you never know what you will get from year to year. I much rather have a young highly touted goalie and give him a chance to take the job then have to sit here and hope one of these free agent goalie that other teams don't want will lead us to the Cup. Franchise goalies are not to be found on the market just like a franchise defenseman we still seeking here.

To me you have to take a chance on these young guys and let them develop, if we let other teams develop them then we would have to pay a premium to acquire them or have no chance at all or until they are 35 years old.

Yeah, and sometimes you need to relocate a prospect to another team as a part of their development. Mason probably should have been traded a couple of years ago, but hey that is tough when a team like the Blue Jackets was counting on him to return to the goalie he was when he won a Calder. Luongo comes to mind of a goalie that performed much better once he was traded from the Panthers.

At 25 Mason has the tools to become a franchise goalie for the Flyers. Mason and Bernier will be both 25 at the start of the season. Maybe for once we are on the receiving end of a player who hit bottom on a previous team.

[doom88]

I think Mason stuck in Columbus was basically Chinese water torture for his psyche. If the team around you is bad years in a row, with no sign of improvement, and you alone are supposed to be the savior, I wouldn't be surprised if you crack. Let's see how he does with much more to work with, and an actual fan base to encourage him. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Also, I don't count him as a reclaimation project. He's still very young, and I like to think of Mason as a player that a team gave up on too early, or a player who needs a change of scenery to put that last piece together (perspective). It's happened from Phily before, why not to Philly?

[JackStraw]

@Vincent05

Mason is a young goalie also. Basically Mason and Bernier will be both 25 to start the 2013-14 season. Why does Bernier give us a better chance for success than Mason with our young forwards?

I'm not shedding any tears over missing out on Bernier. Mason hasn't proven anything at this point, except that he still has the talent. I'm fine with seeing what we have in him. Defense is still a more pressing problem imo.

[JackStraw]

I'm not old enough to have seen it, but stats suggest Bernie Parent. Check his Boston statistics, then what he did in Philly.

Parent wasn't really a reclamation project when the Flyers got him the second time. Remember, they traded him away in favor of Doug Favell the first time. He went to Toronto and worked with Jacques Plante and mastered the style of playing the angles. He got a big payday to jump to the WHA, then Toronto traded his NHL rights back to the Flyers.

[dilbert719]

Parent wasn't really a reclamation project when the Flyers got him the second time. Remember, they traded him away in favor of Doug Favell the first time. He went to Toronto and worked with Jacques Plante and mastered the style of playing the angles. He got a big payday to jump to the WHA, then Toronto traded his NHL rights back to the Flyers.

Not the second time. The first (hence the reference to Boston, rather than Toronto, or the Blazers.)

[OccamsRazor]

I don't like how we bring in these guys hoping they turn it around somehow. When have we seen a reclamation project from any team become a franchise goalie?

Jean-Sebastien Giguere

[JackStraw]

Not the second time. The first (hence the reference to Boston, rather than Toronto, or the Blazers.)

So you're saying he was a reclamation project when the Flyers got him the first time? I wouldn't call it that, he was taken in the expansion draft by the Flyers, the original 6 teams couldn't protect everyone and he was only 22. He and Favell both were basically still prospects when the Flyers drafted them.

[terp]

....

Just for laughs, consider this: I understand goaltender pads may shrink in the NHL. Bernier is a smallish goaltender...will he be affected more than a guy like Mason?

[aziz]

[Vincent05]

@hf101@JackStraw

I do hope I'm wrong on Mason but what are the chances of him becoming a Vezina candidate again? I'm just tired of Clarke and Homer making the wrong moves to give us a better chance to win the cup. Sick of them trading for good forwards and refusing to build a better d or goalie. When Homer does address the d, he goes and trade for a over the hill dman who is past his prime.

Sorry for my ranting today, just frustrated by that news today.

[ruxpin]

[Mad Dog]

What's interesting about the FLyers' situation is we have absolutely no idea what the Flyers' plans are in net in the upcoming season. For all we know, if Bryz stays this year (and everything so far points in a direciton that he will), Mason may have just been brought in as a back-up. And with that, we don't know how many starts he will even see this upcoming season. Knowing how mentally fragile Bryz is, the Flyers may decide to travel the same road with Mason as they did with Bob - give him an absolute necessary minimum of starts just to make sure Bryz doesn't startsomething crazy like 90% of games.

[JackStraw]

@hf101@JackStraw

I do hope I'm wrong on Mason but what are the chances of him becoming a Vezina candidate again? I'm just tired of Clarke and Homer making the wrong moves to give us a better chance to win the cup. Sick of them trading for good forwards and refusing to build a better d or goalie. When Homer does address the d, he goes and trade for a over the hill dman who is past his prime.

Sorry for my ranting today, just frustrated by that news today.

We don't know if Mason will find (and keep) his old form again or not. But we also don't know how good Bernier will be. Some people are reacting as if Homer in fact passed up Brodeur in his prime. Bernier is not a proven NHL starter. His career stats, playing for a defense oriented team, are good but not great. There is no guarantee that he would be "the answer". If there were, Toronto would have paid a much higher price to get him. I would certainly have liked to get him, but I would not trade Couturier for him and I really wouldn't like trading Read for him either. So I'm glad that Homer did not over-react and give away the candy store for an unproven player.

[jammer2]

@JackStraw "There is no guarantee that he would be "the answer"

Yes, but fast and athletic is fast and athletic. Not a guarantee by any means....but still, there is a few good reasons why Bernier's name has been linked with a gazilion trade scenario's since he was picked in the 06 draft. The experts and scouts etc all had rave reviews about him.

I was not in favour of breaking up the core to get him, but I do think we should have upped the ante to get him, based on what Toronto gave up...and that comes from *probably* the biggest Matt Frattin fan on this board.

EDIT...then again, Homer never recognized fast and athletic when he had it on his own team. Amazing how both teams handled a supposed back up...the Kings hoarded and basically blocked Bernier for 8 seasons...right up to 2 weeks before his present contract expired, making sure they got what they needed to achieve full value (although it didn't work out to well on the surface, I applaud their line of thinking). These kids are assets and should be treated as such. The Flyers let Bob go, even have the balls to say they were doing the kid a favour....when most board members here could plainly see the talent Bob had....yet Homer lets him go for a few draft picks....not even an established NHL vet in return. Guess we know why the Kings won a cup and the Flyers suck, huh?

Edited June 24, 2013 by jammer2

[radoran]

@jammer2

If the Flyers simply didn't have the piece the Kings wanted - by all accounts a NHL quality backup goaltender - then "upping the price" might have meant a pretty big jump.

If the Kings said "no" to Read and a pick, would Couturier have gotten it?

Apparently some GMs take "backup goaltender" pretty seriously. Imagine that? I mean, it's hard given that we have a braintrust that doesn't value "starting goaltender" as a vital ingredient of a Cup run.

Still all wudder under da bridge, now.

[jammer2]

@radoran Yeah, it seems our inability to cough up a legit back up cost us large here. The Leafs, already a dangrousl team, might have secured their goalie of the future while leaving their impressive core entact. I can't believe the Kings didn't make them give up one of their many, many defensive prospects. Bernier is gonna turn out to be the real deal, I can see just see it evolving that way....and we will be left wondering, why not us....again.

[JackStraw]

@jammer2 - What rad said. The question is, what would have taken to get him? I look at it this way, here's an instance where Homer managed to not trade away valuable assets for an unproven player. To me, that's a good thing. As you say, a GM only has so many assets to work with. He has to spend them wisely. We fans may see Couturier as somewhat "unproven" but I'll bet Homer has a pretty good idea of what his value is. I think Read is a proven 2nd/3rd line winger who can play all situations and even jump up to the 1st line when needed. That would be hard to replace. If you're going to trade assets like that I think you need to get more of a known quantity back. If Bernier wasn't still considered an "unknown", LA would have gotten a much higher return for him.

I have much more of a problem with Homer trading away Bob than I do with him not trading for Bernier.

[jammer2]

@JackStraw "I have much more of a problem with Homer trading away Bob than I do with him not trading for Bernier."

Totally agreed, vezina or not....I'm still seething mad as I type this!!!

[Mad Dog]

I have much more of a problem with Homer trading away Bob than I do with him not trading for Bernier.

I really think that move should be viewed as making a top 10 list for the worst moves in the Flyers history. That trade really makes no sense whatsoever no matter from what angle you look at it. The line that the Flyers did Bob a favor and wanted to see him develop makes no sense, really. They could still start him in more games than they did. It really looks like they completely catered to Bryz's insecurity. What a boneheaded reason to basically give up on such a potential asset like Bob and, worse yet, get basically nothing in return for him. At least package him with someone else (say JVR) and get a better return. And I am not even mentining the fact that by shipping Bob out, they left themsleves completely exposed and uncovered in case Bryz would falter (which he did) and they ended up having nobody else backing him up. Nobody good anyway...

Just maddening, stupid, beyond ridiculous move... Homer screwed this one up big time.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mad Dog

[JackStraw]

@Mad Dog - Couldn't agree more. Just a horrible decision.

[Phillygrump]

Do you ever say anything different? You're a broken record that wasn't very interesting before it "broke." You completely miss the point and have failed for two months to respond to a thing anyone has replied to you with. FOR THE 47 THOUSANDTH TIME: NO ONE IS OR WAS SAYING THIS WAS A CUP CONTENDER OR THAT IT WAS ALL BRYZ'S FAULT. We are, however, saying he sucked vs. his salary and to try to do what is necessary to fix the other issues the team has the organization needs some cap room. The easiest,, quickest way to get that cap room is to jettison the deadweight that is not only lousy in goal but is also apparently a cancer in the locker room.

What is so hard for you to understand??

Liking this is not enough so I want to echo it as well.