Better on paper young core intact

[mojo1917]

Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, Laughton, Cousins all remain in the orange and black and system. Dead weight has been removed from the roster. The defense and the imagined lack of size up front have been addressed via free agency at cap friendly numbers. The situation in goal while not resolved can only be considered an upgrade, without throwing a pile of years and money at it. The high-ish draft picks resulted in adding 2 of the top 35 skaters in the world to our defense ? Our best player will not have a distraction regarding his expiring contract, okay it's for more money than we'd like but if 93pt G shows up no one will care that much.

Like @JackStraw mentioned somewhere here, the team is trying to have it both ways, keep the young promising guys and still ice a winning team. To my eye today it looks as if the management has pulled that feat off.

I like the moves the team has made, in 3 years more moves will be have to be made , no team is static or frozen in time, injuries occur, guys make surprising improvements or regressions. It is the nature of assembling a group of people to do anything.

The arnchair GMing is fun I enjoy the discussions we have, but I am finding it curious for so many to be so negative about this offseason's transactions.

[flyercanuck]

@mojo1917

I mentioned in another thread I liked how they FINALLY adressed the D in the draft. I'm glad they haven't traded any of the young guys away...yet. And you're right about Giroux, IF 93 point Giroux plays out that contract, no complaints here. IF.

My issue is looking forward (which I wish our gm would do) when all these young guys are showing what they got, guys like Streit and Vinny will be the Brieres of last year. I'm all for signing guys like that when it's time to take a shot at a cup. We do it every year.

[MDFlyerFan]

I like the moves the team made so far this offseason but still think Vinnie's contract was a bit much... well, until I saw the Clowe and Horton deals.

Defense still concerns me a little but there's tons of rumors about a trade involving that position so we'll see what happens.

Have to admit I like the goalie situation going into this season. Mason is capable of pitching shutouts and Emery seemed very capable last season when he filled in for Crawford. Granted Emery had the 'hawks D in front of him but the game or two I saw he was very sharp.

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

I'm not positive that Streit will be a broken down, no producing , waste of a sweater on the ice the way Daniel was last year.

Mark didn't start playing in the NHL until he was older, so I think there is less wear and tear on him physically than a guy that's played in North America his whole life. I can see him aging more gracefully as a result ; without the Brieresque decline in effectiveness.

[radoran]

Mojo, I think there are some marginal improvements to the squad. Whether those improvements on paper are better than the growt progression would have been is certainly debateable.

I don't think that everryone is negative about everything. There are people who have concerns about certain moves repeating past mistakes. There are also people - myself among them - that don't feel that the same peple who put the "dead weight" on the franchise to begin with should be credited with losing half a season to get a "do over." People that feel that the braintrust that felt Ila Bryzgalov was essential to the long term success of the team shouldn't be trusted to "fix it" this time. Again.

That the continual reshuffling strategy hasn't worked and there isn't much evidence that it does work.

Lecavalier is a fine signing for next year, but it filled a position which was not of need and added a top six forward when the Flyers had a solid top six (plus plus). It points out the lack of a plan in that whatever grass suddenly appears on the other side of the fence is a much more attractive green than the grass we planted over here.

Making predictions about the draft is a fool's errand. Morin could turn out to be a great pick or a complete bust or a middling player. We won't know for years and we don't need to know now. Flyers didn't need an immediate lmpact player.

And anyone who is saying "stop worrying about long deals and NMCs" I humbly give you Ilya Bryzgalov and the simple fact that without losing half a season of hockey and giving out another cheap Cup Ilya Bryzgalov would be the goalie here for the next six years - not steve mason or ray emery or the guy who DID win the Vezina...

And that was the decision that the people still running the team thought was absolutely essential to the long term success of the franchise.

What do they do next?

[flyercanuck]

@flyercanuck

I'm not positive that Streit will be a broken down, no producing , waste of a sweater on the ice the way Daniel was last year.

Mark didn't start playing in the NHL until he was older, so I think there is less wear and tear on him physically than a guy that's played in North America his whole life. I can see him aging more gracefully as a result ; without the Brieresque decline in effectiveness.

I'm not positive he will either. But it's the age where most players do, if not sooner.

And Briere didn't start playing in the NHL until he was 24. He played for Phoenix before that. :blink:

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

Well said rad.

If you look at it as trading Bryz and Briere for Streit, Vinny and Emery, it's a win. For sure next season and probably the one after. Three and four years from now I just see the same bs we had from Briere last year. Only it's 2 players at 9 Mil. And after getting OUT of those bad contracts, why the hell jump right back in to 2, at best, questionable deals.

[radoran]

@radoran

Well said rad.

If you look at it as trading Bryz and Briere for Streit, Vinny and Emery, it's a win. For sure next season and probably the one after. Three and four years from now I just see the same bs we had from Briere last year. Only it's 2 players at 9 Mil. And after getting OUT of those bad contracts, why the hell jump right back in to 2, at best, questionable deals.

I don't mind four year deals that "may be" a problem. I think Streit will be OK by the end.

The question for me was: why did they need Lecavalier? Was this just simply another tilting at a windmill like Parise/Suter that happened to hit?

Going into the offseason, did anyone say "gosh, I hope we address the glaring need for a Top Six forward - especially second line center?" I didn't see anyone - not even the people who love the deal - saying that.

I've had a personal "concern" about the tendency to sign older guys since the era of Paul Coffeys and Dale Hawerchuks - which has been the plan since the disastrous Jay Snider era. Giving up or giving up on young talent is the reason players like Denis Seidenberg, Justin Williams and Patrick Sharp have their names on the Cup.

Adding a savvy vet to a solid core can be a deciding factor in a Cup run - as Mark Recchi has found in four places (but not in his time in Philadelphia).

I can understand where some with shorter attention spans and history with the team don't appreciate the jaundiced perspective of those who have followed them for decades.

It's not easy for them to understand how you can be a passionate fan of a team and be a vocal critic of what you see that team doing.

And, perversely, I hope they're right. I hope this team embarks on an unprecedented run of success that will eclipse even our beloved Broad Street Bullies.

Time will tell.

[TimKerrFan12]

Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, Laughton, Cousins all remain in the orange and black and system. Dead weight has been removed from the roster. The defense and the imagined lack of size up front have been addressed via free agency at cap friendly numbers. The situation in goal while not resolved can only be considered an upgrade, without throwing a pile of years and money at it. The high-ish draft picks resulted in adding 2 of the top 35 skaters in the world to our defense ? Our best player will not have a distraction regarding his expiring contract, okay it's for more money than we'd like but if 93pt G shows up no one will care that much.

Like @JackStraw mentioned somewhere here, the team is trying to have it both ways, keep the young promising guys and still ice a winning team. To my eye today it looks as if the management has pulled that feat off.

I like the moves the team has made, in 3 years more moves will be have to be made , no team is static or frozen in time, injuries occur, guys make surprising improvements or regressions. It is the nature of assembling a group of people to do anything.

The arnchair GMing is fun I enjoy the discussions we have, but I am finding it curious for so many to be so negative about this offseason's transactions.

Hey MJ...I am not convinced that this is it and we could very well lose one of the young guys in a trade to shed some cap space eg Coburn. I do hope Flyers Management does not ruin what has been a great week for the Flyers and their fans.

[OccamsRazor]

Mark didn't start playing in the NHL until he was older, so I think there is less wear and tear on him physically than a guy that's played in North America his whole life.

And has only missed 15 games in 7 years not bad (of course not counting the whole season he missed due to injury) but he has been durable...which i wish could be said about Mezz...plus Carle even though is younger has played over more than 900 more minutes in the NHL than Streit, technically is fresher..if that is a word!

Edited July 6, 2013 by OccamsRazor

[TedZep]

The situation in goal while not resolved can only be considered an upgrade, without throwing a pile of years and money at it.

Funny how they went from having the most expensive goalie tandem in the league last year to (one of) the cheapest this year.

[Dynamo 47]

I agree we are better on paper. We added a mobile defenseman who will help the transition game. It was fairly obvious with Carle gone and only Kimo providing mobility and transition offense how badly we needed some help.

Adding Streit to a healthy defensive corp of Schenn, Grossman, Mez, Coburn, and Kimo should make a huge difference on the back end. Glad Bryz is gone but he really did play in front of a horrible defense with a ton of AHL guys on most nights. Having a healthy defense along with the size, experience, and faceoff skills that Vinny provides is an upgrade.

I just wish the NHL would have limited contracts to a max of 5 years. It would almost save some GM's from their own stupidity. I like locking up Giroux for 9 more years total but wish it would have been at a slightly lower cap hit.

I think the team is better on paper this year and next but once those Streit, Vinny contracts go longer we could be in the same position as we were with Briere.

[InHexyWeTrust]

The question for me was: why did they need Lecavalier? Was this just simply another tilting at a windmill like Parise/Suter that happened to hit?

Going into the offseason, did anyone say "gosh, I hope we address the glaring need for a Top Six forward - especially second line center?" I didn't see anyone - not even the people who love the deal - saying that.

Going into the offseason the generally perceived top 3 priorities in order were 1. Improve the defense 2. Try to get a top 6 winger (especially in light of hartnells 3. Decent backup to push mason if they buyout bryz.

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

But moreover, adding him fulfilled that second priority one way or the other. Either he steps into a wing with giroux, or giroux moves to left wing on what could be the best line in the league, or Schenn blossoms in, as others have mentioned, a solidified role on the wing better suited to his skillset.

[InHexyWeTrust]

The question for me was: why did they need Lecavalier? Was this just simply another tilting at a windmill like Parise/Suter that happened to hit?

Going into the offseason, did anyone say "gosh, I hope we address the glaring need for a Top Six forward - especially second line center?" I didn't see anyone - not even the people who love the deal - saying that.

Going into the offseason the generally perceived top 3 priorities in order were 1. Improve the defense 2. Try to get a top 6 winger (especially in light of hartnells 3. Decent backup to push mason if they buyout bryz.

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

But moreover, adding him fulfilled that second priority one way or the other. Either he steps into a wing with giroux, or giroux moves to left wing on what could be the best line in the league, or Schenn blossoms in, as others have mentioned, a solidified role on the wing better suited to his skillset.

[InHexyWeTrust]

The question for me was: why did they need Lecavalier? Was this just simply another tilting at a windmill like Parise/Suter that happened to hit?

Going into the offseason, did anyone say "gosh, I hope we address the glaring need for a Top Six forward - especially second line center?" I didn't see anyone - not even the people who love the deal - saying that.

Going into the offseason the generally perceived top 3 priorities in order were 1. Improve the defense 2. Try to get a top 6 winger (especially in light of hartnells 3. Decent backup to push mason if they buyout bryz.

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

But moreover, adding him fulfilled that second priority one way or the other. Either he steps into a wing with giroux, or giroux moves to left wing on what could be the best line in the league, or Schenn blossoms in, as others have mentioned, a solidified role on the wing better suited to his skillset.

[InHexyWeTrust]

The question for me was: why did they need Lecavalier? Was this just simply another tilting at a windmill like Parise/Suter that happened to hit?

Going into the offseason, did anyone say "gosh, I hope we address the glaring need for a Top Six forward - especially second line center?" I didn't see anyone - not even the people who love the deal - saying that.

Going into the offseason the generally perceived top 3 priorities in order were 1. Improve the defense 2. Try to get a top 6 winger (especially in light of hartnells 3. Decent backup to push mason if they buyout bryz.

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

But moreover, adding him fulfilled that second priority one way or the other. Either he steps into a wing with giroux, or giroux moves to left wing on what could be the best line in the league, or Schenn blossoms in, as others have mentioned, a solidified role on the wing better suited to his skillset.

[flyercanuck]

@

Point made.

[InHexyWeTrust]

@flyercanuck, Wow, that's obnoxious. I don't know what happened. My computer must have glitched out. Sorry guys.

Edit. I can't seem to access those redundant posts to remove them; if an admin cares to delete them, please go ahead.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Bring back Esche

[flyercanuck]

@

No worries...LOL!

[radoran]

Going into the offseason the generally perceived top 3 priorities in order were 1. Improve the defense 2. Try to get a top 6 winger (especially in light of hartnells 3. Decent backup to push mason if they buyout bryz.

Hartnell is still under contract for $4.75M (more than VLC) and has a full NMC. For the next five years.

As I read all analyses, the top priorities going into the offseason were: 1. address goaltending; 2. address defense. "Top Six forward" wasn't even in the top 5.

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

I'll disagree here. Just willy-nilly adding guys because they "became available" isn't representative of a successful approach to developing a team. Can you give me any examples of a team that adopted this approach and won a Cup?

If the Flyers had not chased after the "bext available" guys last year and had kept the guys they had, the Flyers are likely still in the playoffs with a second year of experience for the young core instead of hitting the links early.

I'm not entirely against the move (see below) and was really explaining some of the wide variety of reactions to it.

But moreover, adding him fulfilled that second priority one way or the other. Either he steps into a wing with giroux, or giroux moves to left wing on what could be the best line in the league, or Schenn blossoms in, as others have mentioned, a solidified role on the wing better suited to his skillset.

I've had a few posts already about how VLC an improve the overall team in the short term and how his overall cap hit on the back end will likely be in line with what we should expect a 20-goal scorer to be in 3-5 years.

I still don't like the "strategy" where the ice is always smoother where the guys on the other team are skating. But I do think this deal - given that VLC took a clear discount with a ton of money already in his pocket - can work for the team.

[OccamsRazor]

I think they, like the rest of the NHL, saw vinny as immediately the top ufa available, and if you can add the best free agent on the market for a huge bargain compared to Horton or clarkson, it's a brilliant move regardless of need.

Good point, just like the draft when the team takes the "best player available"....free agency shouldn't be viewed any differently and that is what they did...

[radoran]

Good point, just like the draft when the team takes the "best player available"....free agency shouldn't be viewed any differently and that is what they did...

Except that every team starts out (at least) with a draft pick and they ask that team every round who they'd like to take.

Teams can trade picks (don't we know that) but generally there is an imperative to do something when you have a pick come up - you must make a pick if you are the owner of it.

In the UFA world, the best move you make can be the move you don't make.

I'll just throw a few quick examples out there: Ilya Bryzgalov, Brad Richards, Scott Gomez, Wade Redden...

See? They didn't even have to be all Flyers

[DaGreatGazoo]

I'll just throw a few quick examples out there: Ilya Bryzgalov, Brad Richards, Scott Gomez, Wade Redden...

Jeff Finger. That's one of my all time favorites. Jeff Freaking Finger.

[InHexyWeTrust]

I'll disagree here. Just willy-nilly adding guys because they "became available" isn't representative of a successful approach to developing a team. Can you give me any examples of a team that adopted this approach and won a Cup?

If the Flyers had not chased after the "bext available" guys last year and had kept the guys they had, the Flyers are likely still in the playoffs with a second year of experience for the young core instead of hitting the links early.

I'm not entirely against the move (see below) and was really explaining some of the wide variety of reactions to it.

It's a fair point, rad. Though it wasn't a move just because they could "willy-nilly." The offense lost something after Jagr left, and they had an opportunity to sign the best offensive option available at neither a high cost in terms of cap hit nor tradable assets. A comparable hockey move, I suppose, is when teams on playoff runs add a big piece even if the need doesn't demand it (Iginla & Jagr last season, for example). Granted, neither worked, but also no one would criticize those moves, and deadline deals come at expense of those assets. I think the Phillies' commendable signing of Cliff Lee (for less money I think than was offered him by Texas or NYY) was similar to the VLC signing.

I agree that the pursuit of Bryzgalov & Weber particularly in recent years were definitely moves that hurt the team, where they would have done better just to sit pat and resign Carle and see what happened with Bob. But those mistakes in themselves don't suggest that going after available high profile, talented players is a bad thing. After the Devils' series, it was clear that our d-corps wasn't going to cut it, and while Weber/Suter were undoubtedly a reach, and huge gambles that backfired, they represented a need for something that wasn't to be found on our roster; Carle for example was never going to be a defenseman that could handle the forecheck they faced in that series. I'm all for waiting for the core to mature and develop, but we needed more puckmovers than the soon to be gone Kimmo and Gus. And we needed a little more offensive firepower than what we had. Streit and Vinny were both great pickups. Homer has really done well this offseason, IMO.

[AJgoal]

Martin lapointe - 4 years, 20 million. Bobby Holik - 5 years, 45 Million...