Trades

[aziz]

I agree that they did somewhat of a rebuild but I don't like it and it hasn't worked.  Thats why I want another rebuild and want someone else to try.

 

rebuilds don't happen after a couple seasons.  a rebuild is a 5+ year project.  tough to say "it hasn't worked" when it is only half done.

 

and there's the thing, the reason that the flyers will never go through a traditional, chicago-style rebuild:  the fans have nowhere near the patience for it.  midway into the second not-great season and they will be calling for everyone to be fired and everyone to be traded.  the blackhawks missed the playoffs 9 of the 11 seasons prior to winning their cup.  you ready to have the flyers miss the playoffs another 8 seasons over the next decade or not?

[icehole]

rebuilds don't happen after a couple seasons.  a rebuild is a 5+ year project.  tough to say "it hasn't worked" when it is only half done.

 

and there's the thing, the reason that the flyers will never go through a traditional, chicago-style rebuild:  the fans have nowhere near the patience for it.  midway into the second not-great season and they will be calling for everyone to be fired and everyone to be traded.  the blackhawks missed the playoffs 9 of the 11 seasons prior to winning their cup.  you ready to have the flyers miss the playoffs another 8 seasons over the next decade or not?

No.  I woukdn't wait 5-8 years for a rebuild.  I am proud to say the Flyers are more successful than the Pens because the flyers have the second best winning % of all time.  The Pens are 20th.  They have 3 cups because they were so terrible for so long and they got lucky in the draft.

I don't think it has to happen that way though.  This team could gel or they could continue to be mediocre or sink.  As an outsider looking in, I don't like this team.  They don't do the things I like.  Giroux is their best player and I can remember at least three times this year that I saw him coasting and his man scored an important goal.  I can't have that from my captain.  I think that if you bring in the right GM, he can add guys that don't coast back, add the right coach,and have this team competing again in a year or two.   I don't want to hold out hope that giroux will mature or cotourier will get tougher or schenn will live up to "top prospect" material.

If they do turn it around, I'll be cheering them on but I'm sick of holding on because of expectations.

[DaGreatGazoo]

pre face smash coburn

 

This has me laughing my ass off.  

[fanaticV3.0]

Agreed the Cup Final run had "flukey" written all over it.

That said, I am so far over Crater and Richards you can't even see them from where I am. On the day of the trades I said they got younger, cheaper and potentially better in the long term but in the short term this was a decision to take several steps back. And it was.

This is nothing to do with Crater and Richards specifically or "wanting them back" or any of the other nonsense you might try to assert to avoid the obvious fact that the team gutted itself when they traded them and haven't found a way to get the intestinal fortitude back since.

I like Schenn, Couturier and Simmonds - I even like Voracek. But again the obvious facts are that Crater and Richards have been to back-to-back Conference Finals (and won a Cup) while the Flyers lost 4-1 in the second round and then missed the playoffs entirely. The Kings are one of the elite in the West and the Flyers are a middling team in a stinky division that isn't in a playoff position.

I guess I should be happy that at least you didn't even try to back up your ridiculous assertion that Giroux's not suited for wing, since he only led the team in points from the wing.

 

The Kings went to back-to-back Conference Finals, The Kings are elite, not just "Richards and Carter". We saw what Richards and Carter can do on their own when counted upon to lead a team (all to well too). When just along for the ride, they're great. The Kinds don't have Doughty, Brown, and Quick, but Richards and Carter, they're the Flyers of the West.

Edited December 16, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[fanaticV3.0]

That "core" had been to an Eastern Conference championship series, was eliminated by eventual cup champion Pittsburgh, and then lost in the cup finals.  Not exactly "lightning in a bottle".

Also i'm not sure anyone is pining for the "good old days"  (and by the way here's a tip about the good old days  just in general, they weren't) though when I brought it up , i was not using the 20/20 lens of hind sight, more remembering how i felt after the group of lupul, richards, carter, umberger, briere, pre face smash coburn et al. played the Penguins tough in the ECF , that group had me feeling pretty positive about the future . Unlike now where the current group has me feeling like more pieces are needed.

 

That core was also a part of one of the worst teams in the league and two first round eliminations. Their time here was actually pretty even. Lots of failure to meet expectations as well as a few runs.

 

That cup run was an example of two things.

 

1. Pure luck.

2. What raw talent can get you if it decides it wants to apply itself, which those two didn't always want to do here.

Edited December 16, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

The Kings went to back-to-back Conference Finals, The Kings are elite, not just "Richards and Carter". We saw what Richards and Carter can do on their own when counted upon to lead a team (all to well too). When just along for the ride, they're great.

 

True enough as far as it goes - but "Richards and Crater" are certainly part of the "core" that has been to B2B Conference Finals.

 

Richards was tied for fourth in playoff scoring for the Cup winner (tied with Justin Williams) and Crater was next - including the Cup winning goal. 

 

Last year Crater led the team in goals (26 in 48 games - 44 goal pace) and was second in points in the regular season and led the team in points in the playoffs. Richards was fourth in regular season points and second in the playoffs (with 12 behind Crater/Voynov tied at 13).

 

Richards is currently second on the team in scoring with Crater tied for fourth (second in goals with 9 after Kopitar/Williams at 11).

 

You have an interesting definition of "along for the ride."

[flyercanuck]

The Kings went to back-to-back Conference Finals, The Kings are elite, not just "Richards and Carter". We saw what Richards and Carter can do on their own when counted upon to lead a team (all to well too). When just along for the ride, they're great. The Kinds don't have Doughty, Brown, and Quick, but Richards and Carter, they're the Flyers of the West.

 

Give the Flyers Quick instead of the AHL goalie they made the finals with and they likely win.Without Doughty and Brown. I don't have the numbers in front of me but Carter has to be one of the top 5 goal scorers in the NHL over the last 5 or 6 seasons. And players who've won a Memorial Cup, Calder Cup, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup aren't "along for the ride". No way.

[RonJeremy]

Lets not forget. Chicago has 2 stalwart defenseman in Keith and Sreabrooke, we have Coburn and Grossman

[King Knut]

I agree but I feel like the only possible exception is a playoff team in need of a goalie. If you have a spare, you can be a bit of a bastard about letting him go.

how is that different that any other situation? you think GM's around the league are looking to help the blackhawks out with a couple soft deals?

value is value, and moves made happen based on the value of the assets moving. unless you have a situation where a given player HAS to be moved (has demanded a trade or is an expiring FA), a team's position in the standings or otherwise doesn't change that.

[King Knut]

Just imagine how good the kings could have been with real players and not those lazy drug addicted drunkard coke heads.

Joking aside, some people just don't like them and will say anything to make those trades inconsequential.

I'm still waiting for the magic beans to turn into a beanstalk.

Coots is really coming along nicely IMHO. Simmer, Schenn and jake look lost in the woods right now.

True enough as far as it goes - but "Richards and Crater" are certainly part of the "core" that has been to B2B Conference Finals.

Richards was tied for fourth in playoff scoring for the Cup winner (tied with Justin Williams) and Crater was next - including the Cup winning goal.

Last year Crater led the team in goals (26 in 48 games - 44 goal pace) and was second in points in the regular season and led the team in points in the playoffs. Richards was fourth in regular season points and second in the playoffs (with 12 behind Crater/Voynov tied at 13).

Richards is currently second on the team in scoring with Crater tied for fourth (second in goals with 9 after Kopitar/Williams at 11).

You have an interesting definition of "along for the ride."

[doom88]

JVR? You mean the 26 points in 32 games this season JVR? You mean the 14 goals in 32 games JVR? You mean the JVR who had 18 goals in 48 games last season? 

 

Yep. No guarantees.

 

You can talk about "patience" all you want - but just leave JVR out of it.

 

Allow me to expand my point (I usually post from my phone, and hate writing longer posts).

 

The Flyers were the worst team in the league.  One of their worst seasons ever.  And the draft that year was legend-wait for it-arily weak at that point in time.  Only one NHL ready guy.  Then the Flyers manage to lose the draft lottery as well.  The drop off from Patrick Kane to JVR was significant.  JVR is not and never will be one of those elite cornerstone franchise guys.  The takehome from this is as follows: losing sucks, AND it doesn't ensure your franchise will turn around with the second coming.

 

To your point, JVR is a damn good player, and will continue to improve.  I think he got a raw deal in Philly, and was really turning a corner after his playoff run and offseason training - right before he got hurt again.  He never got the ice time he needed, though he didn't do himself any favors with a shady work ethic never earning those minutes either.  I wonder if part of his success is due to the "wake up" by-product effect of a trade.

 

Despite that, JVR ain't turning your franchise around.  Kane should have been a Flyer, and watching Kane of all ******* people score the cup winning goal in Philly, for the visiting team.....well.....it sucked hardcore.

[Howie58]

I think there is one part of this thread that has to be put under the proverbial microscope or at least defined: What is a "blow up?"  The across-the-parking lot Phillies should be blown up if you feel a COHORT of players put together at roughly the same time is past prime and needs cleaning.  Yes, the Flyers have a core of young players. But as I and others have said before, Homer seems to like collecting other teams' first rounders (Eminger too, right); we don't seem to "grow" our own.  If we were disposing members of a team drafted and "grown" together, that might be a blow up.  Voracek and Schenn are other teams' first rounders. We would like to think they will grow together.  I am not so sure if that is the same as what a Pittsburgh or Nashville might do with picks. I agree with others on this thread the Flyers don't show patience with growing their own.  And G-d only know why Homer goes for the seniors he savors.

 

Best,

Howie

[radoran]

Allow me to expand my point (I usually post from my phone, and hate writing longer posts).

 

The Flyers were the worst team in the league.  One of their worst seasons ever.  And the draft that year was legend-wait for it-arily weak at that point in time.  Only one NHL ready guy.  Then the Flyers manage to lose the draft lottery as well.  The drop off from Patrick Kane to JVR was significant.  JVR is not and never will be one of those elite cornerstone franchise guys.  The takehome from this is as follows: losing sucks, AND it doesn't ensure your franchise will turn around with the second coming.

 

To your point, JVR is a damn good player, and will continue to improve.  I think he got a raw deal in Philly, and was really turning a corner after his playoff run and offseason training - right before he got hurt again.  He never got the ice time he needed, though he didn't do himself any favors with a shady work ethic never earning those minutes either.  I wonder if part of his success is due to the "wake up" by-product effect of a trade.

 

Despite that, JVR ain't turning your franchise around.  Kane should have been a Flyer, and watching Kane of all ****** people score the cup winning goal in Philly, for the visiting team.....well.....it sucked hardcore.

 

Can't argue with just about any of that. Bobby Ryan isn't really a "franchise" guy either, for that matter. But 30-goal scorers don't grow on trees and the Flyers have traded away two of the ones they drafted - Crater and JVR - and haven't really replaced that.

[pilldoc]

My only point is while you are advocating "starting" a rebuild, the "rebuild" has already been going on.

 

Homer's apparently just not very good at it.

 

Absolutely correct!!  It took awhile, but I looked at the turn around for the Flyers since "the Cup Run" and let the moves do the talking

 

In 2009-10 we had a core of:

 

Richards (out 2011)

Carter (out 2011)

Pronger (out - injury)

Briere (2013)

Giroux

Hartnell

Timonen

JVR (out 2012)

Carle (out 2012)

Leino (out 2011)

Parent (out 2010)

 

In 2010-11:

 

OUT = Gagne, Asham, Laperriere (injury), Cote, Emery, Parent and a bunch of AHL'ers (Pylora, Laliberte, Krajicek, Kalinski, Tollefsen)

IN = Meszaros, Zherdev, Versteeg, O'Donnell, Shelley, Wellwood, Walker, Gus, Bobrovsky, Boynton

 

Analysis:

Versteeg did not even play 1 year with this team, Zherdov was a waste, Mez is made of glass but had potential.  Overall the lost a great role player in Lappy and fan favorite Gagne had a concussion and Matt Walker is a waste. Bob seemed to be a bright spot.

 

In 2011-12:

 

OUT = Carter, Richards, Leino, Versteeg, Carcillo, O'Donnell, Betts, Bartulis, Boynton

IN = Jagr, Simmonds, Voracek, Read, Talbot, Couturiere, B. Schenn, Rinaldo, MAB, Kubina, Harry Z., Grossman, Lilja, Sestito, Bryz

 

In 2012-13:

 

OUT = Bob, Kubina, Jagr, Carle, JVR,

IN = Fedotenko, Gagne, L. Schenn, Knuble, Gervais, McGinn, Foster, Lauridsen, Knuble, Mason, Hall, Rosehill

 

In 2013-14: (Current Season)

 

OUT: Briere, Bryz, Fedotenko, Gagne, Knuble, Talbot (trade this year)

IN: Downie, Striet, Emery, Lecavalier, Raffl, Gill

 

As one can plainly see, the turnover has been there.  However, look at some of the quality of players Homer has brought in.  Some are young filled with potential (Simmonds, Voracek, B. Schenn, Couturiere (draft), Raffle, Gus, Lauridsen (who is currently with the Phantoms), MAB (concusion). Yet there are other who have marginal NHL ability (Gervais, Foster, Lilja, Sestito).  Some who were over the hill (Knuble, Streit, Gill) Jagr was a great decision who elavated Giroux's play, but then they choose not to resign him.  The argument being his age and being able to withstand an 80 game schedule plus playoffs.  Zherdev and Bryz were mistakes.  Shelly was worthless and served beer and popcorn to Homer/Snider most of the time.  Bob was a bright spot and was traded to Columbus. Mason may or may not yet pan out.  Goaltending this year is at the bottom of the list for this this years team problems.  Versteeg was never here long enough.  Talbot brought bacl Steve Downie to us.  Vinny is a signing that is highly debated along with Striet. 

 

I know I am missing several other players and tidbits, but the point I'm attempting to make is that Homer has turned this roster around, BUT it is not a Stanley Cup contending roster.  Chicago has made some great moves and therefore are in the position they are in.  The Pens as long as they have Malkin, Crosby, and Letang will always have a shot.  MAF was a solid netminder, but lately hs become a basket case in the playoffs.

 

Quite frankly, most of knew that when Carter and Richards were traded away, it was going to take some time for players to gel and develop.  Now did Homer over value players. Perhaps.  But this team is stuck with some god awful contracts.  Now the real question becomes is Berube the right coach for this team?  If not, then what type of coach do you want and do you have the right type of players?  This team is just way too inconsistent to think about playoffs.  IMO, try to jettison as much baggage as possible and let the young guys develop.  IMO, I don't think making a bunch of traded for trading sake is the right direction for this team right now. 

 

The final question is when does Homer get fired if at all.  I am curious to what Hexy could bring to the table.

 

Please feel free to correct and glaring mistakes you see.  I'm not perfect.

[OccamsRazor]

I think the only bigger disappointment is *who* the Flyers traded JVR for.

 

 

Totally agree...James needed a change of scenery from what i seen of him, it who we got is the disappointment. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by OccamsRazor

[Howie58]

Absolutely correct!!  It took awhile, but I looked at the turn around for the Flyers since "the Cup Run" and let the moves do the talking

 

In 2009-10 we had a core of:

 

Richards (out 2011)

Carter (out 2011)

Pronger (out - injury)

Briere (2013)

Giroux

Hartnell

Timonen

JVR (out 2012)

Carle (out 2012)

Leino (out 2011)

Parent (out 2010)

 

In 2010-11:

 

OUT = Gagne, Asham, Laperriere (injury), Cote, Emery, Parent and a bunch of AHL'ers (Pylora, Laliberte, Krajicek, Kalinski, Tollefsen)

IN = Meszaros, Zherdev, Versteeg, O'Donnell, Shelley, Wellwood, Walker, Gus, Bobrovsky, Boynton

 

Analysis:

Versteeg did not even play 1 year with this team, Zherdov was a waste, Mez is made of glass but had potential.  Overall the lost a great role player in Lappy and fan favorite Gagne had a concussion and Matt Walker is a waste. Bob seemed to be a bright spot.

 

In 2011-12:

 

OUT = Carter, Richards, Leino, Versteeg, Carcillo, O'Donnell, Betts, Bartulis, Boynton

IN = Jagr, Simmonds, Voracek, Read, Talbot, Couturiere, B. Schenn, Rinaldo, MAB, Kubina, Harry Z., Grossman, Lilja, Sestito, Bryz

 

In 2012-13:

 

OUT = Bob, Kubina, Jagr, Carle, JVR,

IN = Fedotenko, Gagne, L. Schenn, Knuble, Gervais, McGinn, Foster, Lauridsen, Knuble, Mason, Hall, Rosehill

 

In 2013-14: (Current Season)

 

OUT: Briere, Bryz, Fedotenko, Gagne, Knuble, Talbot (trade this year)

IN: Downie, Striet, Emery, Lecavalier, Raffl, Gill

 

As one can plainly see, the turnover has been there.  However, look at some of the quality of players Homer has brought in.  Some are young filled with potential (Simmonds, Voracek, B. Schenn, Couturiere (draft), Raffle, Gus, Lauridsen (who is currently with the Phantoms), MAB (concusion). Yet there are other who have marginal NHL ability (Gervais, Foster, Lilja, Sestito).  Some who were over the hill (Knuble, Streit, Gill) Jagr was a great decision who elavated Giroux's play, but then they choose not to resign him.  The argument being his age and being able to withstand an 80 game schedule plus playoffs.  Zherdev and Bryz were mistakes.  Shelly was worthless and served beer and popcorn to Homer/Snider most of the time.  Bob was a bright spot and was traded to Columbus. Mason may or may not yet pan out.  Goaltending this year is at the bottom of the list for this this years team problems.  Versteeg was never here long enough.  Talbot brought bacl Steve Downie to us.  Vinny is a signing that is highly debated along with Striet. 

 

I know I am missing several other players and tidbits, but the point I'm attempting to make is that Homer has turned this roster around, BUT it is not a Stanley Cup contending roster.  Chicago has made some great moves and therefore are in the position they are in.  The Pens as long as they have Malkin, Crosby, and Letang will always have a shot.  MAF was a solid netminder, but lately hs become a basket case in the playoffs.

 

Quite frankly, most of knew that when Carter and Richards were traded away, it was going to take some time for players to gel and develop.  Now did Homer over value players. Perhaps.  But this team is stuck with some god awful contracts.  Now the real question becomes is Berube the right coach for this team?  If not, then what type of coach do you want and do you have the right type of players?  This team is just way too inconsistent to think about playoffs.  IMO, try to jettison as much baggage as possible and let the young guys develop.  IMO, I don't think making a bunch of traded for trading sake is the right direction for this team right now. 

 

The final question is when does Homer get fired if at all.  I am curious to what Hexy could bring to the table.

 

Please feel free to correct and glaring mistakes you see.  I'm not perfect.

Pilldoc:

 

This is a an excellent assessment. I think Homer as Architect is dubious. I have to believe a losing, non-playoff season could lead to his replacement. But with Snider around, will it matter?

 

Best,

Howie

[The Quigster]

The real problem here is Keith Allen is the last "Real' GM that really knew how to run an NHL Club.  It's been downhill ever since!

[flyercanuck]

I think there is one part of this thread that has to be put under the proverbial microscope or at least defined: What is a "blow up?"  The across-the-parking lot Phillies should be blown up if you feel a COHORT of players put together at roughly the same time is past prime and needs cleaning.  Yes, the Flyers have a core of young players. But as I and others have said before, Homer seems to like collecting other teams' first rounders (Eminger too, right); we don't seem to "grow" our own.  If we were disposing members of a team drafted and "grown" together, that might be a blow up.  Voracek and Schenn are other teams' first rounders. We would like to think they will grow together.  I am not so sure if that is the same as what a Pittsburgh or Nashville might do with picks. I agree with others on this thread the Flyers don't show patience with growing their own.  And G-d only know why Homer goes for the seniors he savors.

 

Best,

Howie

 

 What should be blown up is this revolving door "old guy with long contract" idea that Holmgren thinks is a winning formula, yet hasn't worked EVER for us. I won't go into detail about all the "off into the sunset" type this team has acquired over the years but did anybody honestly think the Streit and LeCavalier signings would end any better than the Briere and Pronger ones did? The good thing is we didn't give up 4 first rounders for Streit. The bad thing is their buyouts aren't going to magically disappear from the cap this time.. Yes LeCavalier plays well (when he isn't hurt). Neither of them signed for a year or two though. Picture them 4 years from now....OUCH!

 

 As for Nashville and Pittsburghs drafts...

 

 Nashville has done a fine job of drafting Dmen and a goalie. But they've got the saddest collection of forwards of ANY NHL team. I thought they'd finally get one last year and Seth Jones falls into their lap. They don't have a single impact player from their last 9 drafts (other than Jones) and have traded away several of their first round picks.  

 

 Shero took over a team that had 4-top 2 picks and a 5th overall. His first draft he picked Jordan Staal over Jonathan Toews. He doesn't have a SINGLE impact draft pick since then. Not one. He has some nice prospects in Maatta, Pouliot, Despres, Bennett and Jarry. But the reality is he's a good gm who's a "great" gm cause he inherited Crosby and Malkin, arguably the two best players in the entire world. And he's won one cup with them in 7 years.

 

 In the same timeframe Philly has drafted Giroux, JVR, Sbisa, Couturier, Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Morin and Hagg. And that's while trading away most of his first and second rounders. I honestly don't see one gm stand out over another draft-wise here. Holmgren has traded away more picks, but still has basically the same quality.

[fanaticV3.0]

True enough as far as it goes - but "Richards and Crater" are certainly part of the "core" that has been to B2B Conference Finals.

 

Richards was tied for fourth in playoff scoring for the Cup winner (tied with Justin Williams) and Crater was next - including the Cup winning goal. 

 

Last year Crater led the team in goals (26 in 48 games - 44 goal pace) and was second in points in the regular season and led the team in points in the playoffs. Richards was fourth in regular season points and second in the playoffs (with 12 behind Crater/Voynov tied at 13).

 

Richards is currently second on the team in scoring with Crater tied for fourth (second in goals with 9 after Kopitar/Williams at 11).

 

You have an interesting definition of "along for the ride."

 

It's about more than just points. Richards was near the top in points during our cup run here and it didn't get anything. I could be wrong, but I think him, Carter, and Gagne all disappeared in the cup a bit. If I'm remembering correctly, all of their point totals dropped a lot in that final series. The point is the guy with the most points on your team isn't always the most important part of the team.

 

I agree with you they are a part of LA's core, but their time in Philly vs LA is plain as day. When asked to be the leaders, they came up short. When asked to play a part of a team that already has established leaders, they excel.

[fanaticV3.0]

Give the Flyers Quick instead of the AHL goalie they made the finals with and they likely win.Without Doughty and Brown. I don't have the numbers in front of me but Carter has to be one of the top 5 goal scorers in the NHL over the last 5 or 6 seasons. And players who've won a Memorial Cup, Calder Cup, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup aren't "along for the ride". No way.

 

I think they could have won, but I wouldn't say likely. The fact that they were even in the POs, let alone the cup, was a fluke. But they were within a game, so I wouldn't say it's impossible. It's certainly very possible. Likely? I dunno. I think Chicago was simply a better team. Plus, our big names (up front at least) were totally sh!tting the bed in that series. Richards, Carter, and Gagne really slowed down that series.

[murraycraven]

awesome post Doc!!!

[The Quigster]

I'm still waiting to see Gagne throw his first body check! Richards and Carter were just not up to the role they were ask to play here(#1 line) but were suitable with a lot less responsibilities in LA. They are both good players,not top players.

[radoran]

It's about more than just points. Richards was near the top in points during our cup run here and it didn't get anything. I could be wrong, but I think him, Carter, and Gagne all disappeared in the cup a bit. If I'm remembering correctly, all of their point totals dropped a lot in that final series. The point is the guy with the most points on your team isn't always the most important part of the team.

 

I agree with you they are a part of LA's core, but their time in Philly vs LA is plain as day. When asked to be the leaders, they came up short. When asked to play a part of a team that already has established leaders, they excel.

 

Gagne barely played for the Kings in the playoffs at all.

 

Crater had the game winner in Game 2 and the Cup winner in Game 6 - four goals overall. Richards had three assists (including the first goal and game winning goal of Game 6).

 

I'd say two game winning goals in a seven game series is something a little more than "disappearing."

[fanaticV3.0]

Gagne barely played for the Kings in the playoffs at all.

 

Crater had the game winner in Game 2 and the Cup winner in Game 6 - four goals overall. Richards had three assists (including the first goal and game winning goal of Game 6).

 

I'd say two game winning goals in a seven game series is something a little more than "disappearing."

 

I'm talking about the cup run with the Flyers.

[fanaticV3.0]

I'm still waiting to see Gagne throw his first body check! Richards and Carter were just not up to the role they were ask to play here(#1 line) but were suitable with a lot less responsibilities in LA. They are both good players,not top players.

Exactly. Not very hard to comprehend.